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Filling the Vacuum 1995

Do these votes matter all that much when the SSP eventually contrived, in time-honoured Trot style, to piss it all up the wall?

Well clearly not, or in other words because it doesn't fit into the self-congratulatory we can do no wrong IWCA schema it will have to not matter.

I already outlined that the reason for it's demise were numerous, however, given that it doesn't fit in with the self-decided schema Joe is using it makes it easy to just make a silly remark and try to ignore it....
 
one of the most promising things, when the IWCA first appeared on these boards at least, was a seemingly genuine willingness to engage and discuss. i recall specifically a line in the Oxford 'manifesto' that mentined something about 'returning' the police to being a service to all the community (or something like that). Very quickly, following criticisms of that, it was changed and a recognition made that the police had never acted in such a way.

That attitude seems to have gone long ago tho :(
 
But the reason for that reduction doesn't fit into your schema too easily. A whole number of indicents whether legal, the national question and elections had an influence. 128,000 votes cannot be simply dismissed as readily as you are only too eager to do.


I'm not dismissing 128,000 at all. Hugely credible in the context of an otherwise grizzly left record. However this 128,000 was not really built from the bottom up, so when things went awry at a leadership level there wasn't all that much to fall back on.
 
I'm not dismissing 128,000 at all. Hugely credible in the context of an otherwise grizzly left record. However this 128,000 was not really built from the bottom up, so when things went awry at a leadership level there wasn't all that much to fall back on.

Where do you think that vote came from? It was as a result of patient work, both 'scottish' widf and community-based. With issues such as traffic measures in Pollok and Drumchapel, community centres occupied in Easterhouse and Pollok, the one in Pollok still open to this day as a result of community activists and SMl/SSP members. Campaigns in pollok re traffic calming in 1991/1992 way before the IWCA existed or did similar. Patient work with the anti-poll tax unions, through various local actions, the Govanhill pool being one at the time of the elections. The work put in over a 15/16 year period from the poll tax registrations throuh various campaigns including 6 SML councillors in Glasgow alone in the early 90's, through the formation of the SSP that came about with community activists fully involved. The votes didn't appear from nowhere they were as a result of years of work.
 
one of the most promising things, when the IWCA first appeared on these boards at least, was a seemingly genuine willingness to engage and discuss. i recall specifically a line in the Oxford 'manifesto' that mentined something about 'returning' the police to being a service to all the community (or something like that). Very quickly, following criticisms of that, it was changed and a recognition made that the police had never acted in such a way.

That attitude seems to have gone long ago tho :(


Not really, there was admittedly a head-down approach for a period in order to deliver/maintain the maximum electoral return, with the intention of engaging with others in discussion once the situation vis a vis BNP and New Labour had matured or/and the pilot schemes were deemed to have done as much as they could.
 
There in reality no quick fixes in politics. .. For the best part of half a century the Left has hankered after instant reward with the succes of campaigns judged exclusively on what the benefit was to 'the party'. That mindset is part of what must be challenged and changed.


this is it .. for decades the left has maintained an elitist vanguardist and ultimately putchist ( i call it middle class) politics, that if they can recruit a certain number to their cause, then their party will lead the people to socilaism .. it is castles built on sand .. it has failed over and over .. and it only ever worked as a bourgoios revolution against backward tsarism in russia in 1917

there really is NO alternative from building where people work and live ..

( the Natural Law Party variation is recruit 10% of the population to mediate and levitate!!)
 
The work put in over a 15/16 year period from the poll tax registrations throuh various campaigns including 6 SML councillors in Glasgow alone in the early 90's, through the formation of the SSP that came about with community activists fully involved. The votes didn't appear from nowhere they were as a result of years of work.

Fair enough, pity there wasn't more left wing cllrs from other groups in the same period, and perhaps the BNP might not have such a headstart in filling the vacuum. Especially as it has been said that any group could knuckle down and deliver a result in a ward or three like the IWCA. This is a regular theme. What it seems to imply that is that focus almost regardless of political message will still deliver. I'm far from convinced.

How for instance would be the SWP or Workers Power deal with drug dealing, anti-social crime, identity politics, gentrification and so on as the IWCA had to? With serious difficulty you'd imagine. And if not, how come that an organisation like the SWP who regularly claimed 10,000 members over the years never even tried? Lack of desire? Lack of ambition? Lack of respect?

of course when they did try -under other colours - the SA/respect...well we know the answer to that one.

The SP might boast a slightly better record overall than the IWCA but in terms of cllrs vis a vis time and money spent, and cllrs v activists the IWCA would defintely emerge a clear winner.

Paradoxically this lack of capacity to deliver ever more branches/cllrs has up and down the country been used to call the entire IWCA iniative into question. Which is rather bizarre, when the lesson needs to be drawn, if that is, pro-working forces are ever to compete with the BNP, is the more obvious one.
 
How for instance would be the SWP or Workers Power deal with drug dealing, anti-social crime, identity politics, gentrification and so on as the IWCA had to? With serious difficulty you'd imagine.

This is a very interesting question.

I think we can safely discount Workers Power and other Spartoid groups from this conversation to start with, for the simple reason that they are mentals. But the SWP do have some connection to the real world, even if their grasp on it can seem a bit tenuous at times.

Over here in Dublin, the SWP have had four members elected as councillors as part of the wider People Before Profit Alliance. The PBPA is not an explicitly socialist organisation (like the IWCA), but all of its leaders would consider themselves to be socialists. As I said earlier in the thread, they've taken an approach of frenetic community activism, based around issues like housing, hospital closures and the like. They are against a lot of things, but less clearly for anything in particular.

As far as I know they haven't had anything to say about any of the issues you mention above (although some of their work would touch on gentrification). To some extent that's fair enough. They only had one elected representative until recently and the PBPA is still a new formation. But now they have a number of councillors, some of them with seriously grim estates in their wards. Those issues are going to come up and, to be honest, I have no idea what they are going to say about drugs or crime. My best guess is that they will simply avoid those issues as much as possible and, if really pushed on it, try to steer the conversation towards youth facilities. It will be interesting to see what they do - we have a sort of lab test to find the answer to your question.

You also make another good point in that same post. This discussion has been about tactics, but the politics those tactics are deployed in the service of have only been touched on in passing. We could all do with fleshing out that part of the discussion.
 
There's a start.

Don't generalise it to we're all figting the imperirialist. What lesson have you got from this, what lesson can you offer over here, and are you prepeared to offer them on a wider basis?
 
As far as I know they haven't had anything to say about any of the issues you mention above (although some of their work would touch on gentrification). To some extent that's fair enough. They only had one elected representative until recently and the PBPA is still a new formation. But now they have a number of councillors, some of them with seriously grim estates in their wards. Those issues are going to come up and, to be honest, I have no idea what they are going to say about drugs or crime. My best guess is that they will simply avoid those issues as much as possible and, if really pushed on it, try to steer the conversation towards youth facilities. It will be interesting to see what they do - we have a sort of lab test to find the answer to your question.

Shouldn't those thing have been developed by People Before Profit, by their engagement with the communities they are representing before the elections? Fair enough they didn't get elected on those issues but they will soon be serious issues.

The SWP and Militant don't have a good record when it came to the anti-drugs movement in Dublin. In fact, I'd argue that they were probably hostile like the Workers Party, deeming it a 'Republican front'. When working class communities actually began to police their own communities, something the left only talks about, they were no where to be seen.
 
The SWP and Militant don't have a good record when it came to the anti-drugs movement in Dublin. In fact, I'd argue that they were probably hostile like the Workers Party, deeming it a 'Republican front'. When working class communities actually began to police their own communities, something the left only talks about, they were no where to be seen.

interesting .. the people i was around were very interested / impressed back then by those actions .. i suspect they impressed Red Action at the time too

http://libcom.org/library/dealing-with-the-nightmare-dublin-anti-drugs-campaigns

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...A2rgb&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11
 
interesting .. the people i was around were very interested / impressed back then by those actions .. i suspect they impressed Red Action at the time too

http://libcom.org/library/dealing-with-the-nightmare-dublin-anti-drugs-campaigns

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...A2rgb&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11

Actually I'd hazard a guess that no 'left wing' parties/groups were involved in the anti-drugs movement in an official capacity, barring Sinn Fein of course.

I'd highly recommend that book you linked.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/22/far-right-doorstep-hearts-minds

EDL possibility of Filling the Vacuum according to report in today's Guardian. Only 15 years late...




English Defence League filling vacuum left by mainstream politics, says report


Matthew Goodwin, the author of Right Response, said mainstream parties had become increasingly professional and managerial, concentrating on political marketing techniques and relying on computer-generated canvas returns, tightly-scripted phone banks, focus groups and opinion polls, rather than on face-to-face contact, except at election time. Extreme parties often had more innovative websites too.
"Politics is about winning the hearts and minds of voters, not seeking to win arguments on intellectual grounds," said Goodwin, an associate fellow of Chatham House and lecturer in politics and international relations at Nottingham University. "To do this, mainstream parties should be part of the community, have an active and visible presence, and forge stronger links to local groups and forums. In practical terms, this means standing full slates of candidates at the local level, engaging with voters face-to-face and redirecting some resources to revitalising grassroots campaigns."
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/22/far-right-doorstep-hearts-minds

EDL possibility of Filling the Vacuum according to report in today's Guardian. Only 15 years late...


English Defence League filling vacuum left by mainstream politics, says report

Matthew Goodwin, the author of Right Response, said mainstream parties had become increasingly professional and managerial, concentrating on political marketing techniques and relying on computer-generated canvas returns, tightly-scripted phone banks, focus groups and opinion polls, rather than on face-to-face contact, except at election time. Extreme parties often had more innovative websites too.
"Politics is about winning the hearts and minds of voters, not seeking to win arguments on intellectual grounds," said Goodwin, an associate fellow of Chatham House and lecturer in politics and international relations at Nottingham University. "To do this, mainstream parties should be part of the community, have an active and visible presence, and forge stronger links to local groups and forums. In practical terms, this means standing full slates of candidates at the local level, engaging with voters face-to-face and redirecting some resources to revitalising grassroots campaigns."

The Goodwin remedy is the same old cant trotted out by Searchlight and fellow travellers over a decade ago. It completely ignores the reality that the mainstream parties are pulling about 6 out of 10 voters between them. Not only that but the last thing their so-called rank and file want to do is engage with local communities. For the perfectly simple reason that any such engagment would likely expose the anti-working bias at the heart of the policies they support. Far better to implement, without having to explain it in detail what may happen as a result, and in the way maintain a modicum of credibility among the dwindling gullible in the electorate.

Moreover any grassroots campaigns that do spring up invariably do so to oppose the mainstream parties. Why would the latter want to revitalise local democracy when it would likely result in them being booted out? Local democracy? Shudder the thought. Indeed it is precisely that fear that energises them. Not the fear of being booted out per se; losing to other middle class careerists is often greeted with insouciance, but being booted out by the likes of the BNP or the IWCA is a very different story. Indeed it is telling that it is only when they are challenged from right or left that the mainstream parties pull out their collective finger. Ironically the identical strategy designed to ward off the BNP, has also been implemented against the IWCA, most notably in Oxford. So much for their concern about local democracy much less anti-fascism . Finally the idea that the EDL is 'filling the vacuum', wants to, or might possibly be capable of doing so at some time in the future is utterly absurd. In reality, the EDL may already have peaked.
 
The majority of people stilll vote for mainstream parties - even if the trend is declining over the long term. The BNP have been seen off in the short term. The vacuum exists - but on what grounds do we assume that anyone is capable of filling it, as opposed to a vaccuum being accommodated?
 
I'm not trying to object to the Filling the Vacuum "build at local level in Working class communities" line, but I do wonder, given the SPEED of apparent economic collapse underway, whether we will all be caught out by major national level realignments of political forces to Right and Left as the crisis REALLY moves into "meltdown" (Eurozone collapse ? Double dip Recession - leading to Really mass unemployment levels ?) mode.

After decades of political stasis I don't think the next 5 years will be like that. I think the national level of politics could be Very interesting as the current structures fracture.
 
Apols for the interject, as I've got nothing of value to add to this thread, but was merely going to say cheers for the bump as its really interesting reading (I'd been watching that Fighting Talk doc from 93 earlier too).
 
The majority of people stilll vote for mainstream parties - even if the trend is declining over the long term. The BNP have been seen off in the short term. The vacuum exists - but on what grounds do we assume that anyone is capable of filling it, as opposed to a vaccuum being accommodated?

A rather curious statement from someone who purports to be on the left given that it is the poorest in society who are suffering from the be 'be neither seen nor heard' approach adopted by the mainstream neo-liberal parties. Nor is it logical to even assume that with a double dip hovering, the current 60-40 divvy up can be maintained indefinitely. Sooner or later something will have to give. And as has been the case every where else it is the best organised, and the best prepared who will be the likely beneficaries.
 
I'm not trying to object to the Filling the Vacuum "build at local level in Working class communities" line, but I do wonder, given the SPEED of apparent economic collapse underway, whether we will all be caught out by major national level realignments of political forces to Right and Left as the crisis REALLY moves into "meltdown" (Eurozone collapse ? Double dip Recession - leading to Really mass unemployment levels ?) mode.

After decades of political stasis I don't think the next 5 years will be like that. I think the national level of politics could be Very interesting as the current structures fracture.

First off I don't agree there has been political stasis for decades. Over the last 30 years across Europe the links between the type of parties fomally committed to radical social change have eroded or been broken. As a consequence without that anchor the social democratic parties have drifted further and further to the right; what they would call the 'centre ground' where ever that happens to be. 'Family, faith, flag', is the type of brand Blue Labour would like the party to rally round, for example.

In the meantime the ground abandoned by the left has been filled by far-right in a host of countries accross Europe. With more to come. Even in Britian, the BNP went from 7,000 votes in the General Election in 1992 to the best part of a million in just over 15 years. Whatever else it might be called, stalemate, dosen't cut it.

And while the pace may well accelerate, the notion that economic collapse will somehow save the Left from itself is a chimera. For decades have avoided doing the necessary spade work in working class areas, pinning all their hopes on a quick fix, like you've described. And everytime it has come to the battle significantly less well prepared, less organised, than the previous occassion. Each time it has lost, the sense of cohesion has suffered significantly. A quarter of century after the end of the Miner's Strike, there is actually no sign anywhere of a visible Left anywhere. Even former totems, such Galloway, Sheridan, Hatton and Scargill, many of them little better than carnival hucksters, no longer even register in the public arena. While I agree that the pace may be stepped up, I see no grounds for optimism.
 
A rather curious statement from someone who purports to be on the left given that it is the poorest in society who are suffering from the be 'be neither seen nor heard' approach adopted by the mainstream neo-liberal parties. Nor is it logical to even assume that with a double dip hovering, the current 60-40 divvy up can be maintained indefinitely. Sooner or later something will have to give. And as has been the case every where else it is the best organised, and the best prepared who will be the likely beneficaries.

I didn't say I didn't think it needed filling - i'm just raising the prospect that it might not, at least not in the short-medium term. Or at least testing the assumption that it inevitably will.

Capitalism is a fairly resilient beast.
 
First off I don't agree there has been political stasis for decades. Over the last 30 years across Europe the links between the type of parties fomally committed to radical social change have eroded or been broken. As a consequence without that anchor the social democratic parties have drifted further and further to the right; what they would call the 'centre ground' where ever that happens to be. 'Family, faith, flag', is the type of brand Blue Labour would like the party to rally round, for example.

In the meantime the ground abandoned by the left has been filled by far-right in a host of countries accross Europe. With more to come. Even in Britian, the BNP went from 7,000 votes in the General Election in 1992 to the best part of a million in just over 15 years. Whatever else it might be called, stalemate, dosen't cut it.

And while the pace may well accelerate, the notion that economic collapse will somehow save the Left from itself is a chimera. For decades have avoided doing the necessary spade work in working class areas, pinning all their hopes on a quick fix, like you've described. And everytime it has come to the battle significantly less well prepared, less organised, than the previous occassion. Each time it has lost, the sense of cohesion has suffered significantly. A quarter of century after the end of the Miner's Strike, there is actually no sign anywhere of a visible Left anywhere. Even former totems, such Galloway, Sheridan, Hatton and Scargill, many of them little better than carnival hucksters, no longer even register in the public arena. While I agree that the pace may be stepped up, I see no grounds for optimism.

This is a pretty gloomy prognosis - suggesting the most likely outcome of the current severe capitalist crisis is a series of Far Right governments , maybe the odd military Junta (Greece anyone ?)across Europe.

I think this is too gloomy. I think the European Left wilted in the face of the long Post WWII capitalist boom - "mass embourgeoisment " if you will. I hope as much as predict that Left politics will reappear as the conditions of the European working class worsens. We will see.
 
This is a pretty gloomy prognosis - suggesting the most likely outcome of the current severe capitalist crisis is a series of Far Right governments , maybe the odd military Junta (Greece anyone ?)across Europe.

I think this is too gloomy. I think the European Left wilted in the face of the long Post WWII capitalist boom - "mass embourgeoisment " if you will. I hope as much as predict that Left politics will reappear as the conditions of the European working class worsens. We will see.

Gloomy maybe so. But when you say 'Left politics will reappear as the conditions of the European working class worsens" it needs to be taken into account that the euro-nationalist project is sufficiently flexible and opportunistic to present a limited but faithful pastiche should the need arise. Already Norman Tebbit has condemned the BNP as being "too left-wing for my liking". Confirming his analysis one recent BNP slogan described the party as the 'Labour Party your parents voted for'. The thing is,despite the 'self'-inflicted set back, they still do the grunt work. Go on the estates and so on. An orientation that is anethema to this generation of 'revolutionaries' as it was with previous ones. As the old cliche goes 'nature abhors a vacuum'.

Across Europe the far-right are making strides to fill the existing one. A vox pop of their national influence can be roughly gauged by how many countries are currently in line to follow France in introducing legislation to ban the veil. it is of course mere symbolism but it still the symbolism of the far-right.

I suppose the point is that should the vacuum expand rapidly, as a result of the loss of confidence in the centre right parties, they are the only available credible option. Now, the European far-right has taken 30 years of refining it's strategic thinking to get to the position where in a host of countries they are seen as the radical alternative. In that they have shown vision ambition and stamina. What passes for the Left (which displays none of the charachteristics mentioned) has not even begun the journey.
 
On the issue of the capability of the Far Right to present many faces to many supporter groups, very true - certainly a feature of the Nazi Brownshirts in the rise to power. The Italian Northern League is a classical example of this -- many people really thought for years it was a Left Wing Movement (until all the anti imigrant poison started leaking out in their propaganda.)

Nevertheless I can't see what the Far Right can really DELIVER to the workng class as the crisis deepens ---OK some attacks on veil wearing, tightening up on immigration, maybe even some deportations. But defend the health service, back strikes to defend wages ? Well OK the NAZI unions did a bit of this, but were soon brought into line after 1933. So I still think only the LEFT, however broadly that is defined, can organise consistently against the bosses' attacks against the working class.

I see very well thevery real reasons for your pessimism, but I think that the UK and European working class is dormant, not dead as a class actor in the growing crisis. Many will be seduced by the many- faced seductive propaganda of the Far Right, but millions are still potentialy to be won to resist the capitalist offensive in a Socialist direction, if the LEFT can also raise its game. Difficult, but I see no reason to despair.

What I'm very unclear on Gary, is where your pessimism leads us, activity wise ? Surely no matter how bad the prognosis is , the duty of Socialists, however broadly defined, from Anarchists, to Trots, to Social Democrats of the old school, is to work in the working class struggle at local, national, and of course broad Trades Union levels, to build resistance whenever possible and try to create an alternative to the Right ? What else can we do, other than sit in the pub and weep ?
 
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