Filling the Vacuum 1995

[Nigel Irritable]

Sorry about the length of the post above.

In Ireland the SP is to be congratulated. But it is very differrent circumstances as I here even the SWP members were elected there!

The experience of the SP in Dublin or Cork seems to me to be part of a continuum with the experience of the SP in Coventry or SML in Glasgow and we quite consciously draw on these other experiences, but this is no doubt a question of perspective.

As for the SWP getting elected, you'd probably be surprised to find that our local SWP's electoral strategy is based on frenetic community based activism, centering on things like hospital facilities, opposition to local developers plans to build apartments on public spaces, protesting about swimming pools being shut and the like. Yes, I am serious. They've also borrowed a trick from the IWCA in dropping all the scary talk about socialism. Instead they present themselves to the electorate, under the name People Before Profit, as leftish community activists.

 

[durruti02]

it is now clear that whether it is IWCA, or PbP or Sp(Ireland) that a great emphasise on community activism must now be a taken but equally i think Nigel Irritable makes some good points ..

it is also clear community activism takes great resources and unless people in that community join, then the project is doomed.

It has also not been said yet but the success of IWCA in Oxford Havering and Hackney was due to a large extent to key individuals being from those areas ( i don't know the situation in Islington)

the IWCA branch in oxford did succeed in recruiting local people and what happened there more than anywhere else ( as the other areas never got that far) i think needs to be examined to see how we can do better

btw NigelIrr .. i am not sure about Militant/SP being small in Ireland .. Higgins has been a Cllr of and on for years i thought?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Joe Higgins became a councillor in 1991. The Socialist Party in Ireland was at its smallest just before the AFA/RA/proto-IWCA document this thread is about came out.

 

[durruti02]

but SP(I) had roots going back many years previous in the Irish Labour Party .. IWCA did what it did from a totally standing start

 

[Nigel Irritable]

but SP(I) had roots going back many years previous in the Irish Labour Party .. IWCA did what it did from a totally standing start

The IWCA had "roots" going back many years previous in Red Action and AFA, did they not? Irish Militant Labour in 1994 was a small organisation, with a local base in just one area.

 

[The39thStep]

Isn't one conclusion the fact that unlike the English left the Irish trots have some success precisely becuase they have some orientation locally to community issues?

The SSP which many saw as the way forward was actually beaten by the IWCA in one local election in Glasgow btw

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Isn't one conclusion the fact that unlike the English left the Irish trots have some success precisely becuase they have some orientation locally to community issues?

And isn't another, that the "Irish trots" have more ability to replenish their ranks, spread their support base and take up other forms of activism than the IWCA because they have a less narrow approach and outlook?

As for the SSP coming behind the IWCA in one local council election in one ward on one occasion... What are you suggesting that we take from that?

 

[Fedayn]

Meanwhile in Glasgow we even beat the SSP to come a close third with 19% in a by election in 2003, contested by 5 or 6 national parties.

Well yes, but it wasn't a by election Joe. It was the Strathbungo ward of Glasgow city council in 2003. It was the same day as the 2003 Scottish Elections and the SSP rightly or wrongly concentrated overwhelmingly on the Scottish parliament elections and, again rightly or wrongly, did very little in that ward. Meanwhile the IWCA concentrated on that ward and put more work in than the SSP. Meanwhile the SSP got 6 MSPs.....

The SSP which many saw as the way forward was actually beaten by the IWCA in one local election in Glasgow btw

And? What does that tell us, if you read above it makes that win slightly less than you try to make it.

 

[sevenstars]

And they stood as 'Independent' too, rather than IWCA, which makes it even more unlikely they could generalise whatever support they had in that one ward.

 

[Fedayn]

And they stood as 'Independent' too, rather than IWCA, which makes it even more unlikely they could generalise whatever support they had in that one ward.

Nah, pretty sure they stood as IWCA.

 

[sevenstars]

I had left Glasgow then myself by then so could be wrong on this one. I had half remembered a debate on the IWCA standing as 'Independent', though maybe it was somewhere else.

 

[The39thStep]

I had left Glasgow then myself by then so could be wrong on this one. I had half remembered a debate on the IWCA standing as 'Independent', though maybe it was somewhere else.

Nope IWCA and only 150 votes short of winning apparantly.

 

[The39thStep]

Well yes, but it wasn't a by election Joe. It was the Strathbungo ward of Glasgow city council in 2003. It was the same day as the 2003 Scottish Elections and the SSP rightly or wrongly concentrated overwhelmingly on the Scottish parliament elections and, again rightly or wrongly, did very little in that ward. Meanwhile the IWCA concentrated on that ward and put more work in than the SSP. Meanwhile the SSP got 6 MSPs.....



And? What does that tell us, if you read above it makes that win slightly less than you try to make it.

The SSP did get 6 MSPs but there wasn't there a suggestion that the system of proportional representation aided them unlike the Council elections in which they only got two cllrs.

 

[Fedayn]

The SSP did get 6 MSPs but there wasn't there a suggestion that the system of proportional representation aided them unlike the Council elections in which they only got two cllrs.

The suggestion is made by Red Action in their bulletin that included the report on the election yes. The SSP got 127,000 votes in those elections, not bad considering. The electoral system was deliberately introduced to get wider representation yes. It helped the SNP, Liberals, Tories and Greens too.
The vote of the SSP came on the back of years and years of work both locally and nationally by Militant SML and others. If Glasgow used the system of voting back in 2003 that it had in 2007 the SSP would have got 7/8 councillors in Glasgow.

 

[The39thStep]

And isn't another, that the "Irish trots" have more ability to replenish their ranks, spread their support base and take up other forms of activism than the IWCA because they have a less narrow approach and outlook?

As for the SSP coming behind the IWCA in one local council election in one ward on one occasion... What are you suggesting that we take from that?

In the absence of an IWCA type candidate I would probably vote SP if I lived in Ireland but I am not in ireland .However with any successful political initiative there are lessons to be learnt ( and that should apply to the IWCA however much the Trots don't like us) , and some of what you say was useful food for thought but before everyone rushes to either Dublin or indeed engage you as consultant lets begin to digest things a little more . We have been sold the Socialist Alliance as the way forward, the appalling RESPECT and then the Campaign for the New Workers Party, recently it was suggested that NO2EU could be , the Scottish Socialist Party was promoted , there was interest in Die Linke , Rifondazione Comunista and more recently New Anticapitalist Party .Each have been sold as off the peg projects to be worn over here.

The 'less narrow approach and outlook' criticism you make is worth thinking about but initially remimds me , at the same time, of when the IWCA was comically referred to as sub reformist and the traditional tendency of Trot big tent politics. or the need for the revolutionary party.

In my view the central point of FTV was that what was needed was a new organisation to take on the BNP on the estates in England (rather than Ireland).The headlines were that Labour was massively unpopular in many working class communities,that the BNP rise was as a result of New labours policies,that the antifascism of the ANL was in fact a call to vote for New labour , and that in many places voters were driven as a protest to vote BNP in desperation as there was no left alternative on the estates.The BNP were filling the vacuum not the left.

The suggestion was that what was required was sustainable anti fascism by adressing from a pro working class position the issues raised by working class communities rather than let the BNP exploit them. It was always stated that the IWCA was far behind the BNP .The only suggestion re the new organisation was that it should be democratic ie not democratic centralist and that it should campaign on the issues that were raised by those communities in which they worked , it should not rely of appealing to the 'labour movement' and that it should involve as many as possible on specific projects.

That to me is still a valid analysis and far ahead of the field for most of the revo left who for the past ten years have still been arguing about the principle ( but not delivering) of no platform, who for most have been appealing to the labour movement and who for most have been arguing vote any but the BNP and who as was pointed out on another thread for a significant period refused to accept that the working class even voted BNP ( or as on yet another thread that the working class could vote Tory).

 

[sevenstars]

I dont want to sidetrack the debate, Im sure IWCA did stand as 'Independent' sometime but it may not have been that particular election.

Ive said before the IWCA had an interesting analysis, and credit for that, but it lacks evidence that it is THE alternative to the left. It hasn't proved either locally sustainable or generalisable to neighbouring communities.

It produced a handful of decent election results in isolated pockets, but no more than traditional left parties have achieved themselves, and maybe even less than some of them. With a bit of perspective it could be a place to start talking to the rest of us, none of us has all the answers after all. I do find it surprising that this is difficult for the IWCA comrades to acknowledge though, its very SWPish in that respect, sorry!

 

[Joe Reilly]

I dont want to sidetrack the debate, Im sure IWCA did stand as 'Independent' sometime but it may not have been that particular election.

Ive said before the IWCA had an interesting analysis, and credit for that, but it lacks evidence that it is THE alternative to the left. It hasn't proved either locally sustainable or generalisable to neighbouring communities.

It produced a handful of decent election results in isolated pockets, but no more than traditional left parties have achieved themselves, and maybe even less than some of them. With a bit of perspective it could be a place to start talking to the rest of us, none of us has all the answers after all. I do find it surprising that this is difficult for the IWCA comrades to acknowledge though, its very SWPish in that respect, sorry!

Before the IWCA was registered the IWCA stood in a number of areas as 'independent'. The pick of the crop was in Hatfield in 1997, 1100 votes (half the New Labour total in a county council election).

Apologies for being a bit chippy on the IWCA record but it hasn't really been matched 'by traditional left parties', no matter how often you keep saying otherwise. WRP -zip. SWP - zip. SLP-zip. SA - zip. Workers Power-zip...and so on.

But as the IWCA are currently addressing on another thread in this forum it isn't enough. Nor was it ever likely to be. Sooner rather than later the wider working class movement and it's allies will need to sit down and work out how we move forward.


And in so doing take on board we will now need to define ourselves not just against Labour but against the BNP. The core strategy pioneered by the IWCA is likely to be vital in this regard.

Protesting that it is no different or no more succesful than what the traditional left has been doing for 40 years, benefits no one but the opposition.

 

[belboid]

Protesting that it is no different or no more succesful than what the traditional left has been doing for 40 years, benefits no one but the opposition.

neither does exaggerating your real acheivements.

From the state of the IWCA branches and poll results it seems clear that if the styrategy doesn't achieve a very rapid electoral result, then the activists become burnt out and the branch collapses. At least that is what haas happened n the majority of cases. That presents an obvious problem when proposing this method as the way forward.

Another problem, for me, is that this discussion has focussed overwhelmingly on election results. Such results are important, of course, but far from being the be all and end all. The more important questions are what have those elected achieved? What did those branches that didn't manage to get anyone elected achieve? How many other people did they draw into activity? If it didn't draw others into activity, then its just another electoral representative group, isnt it?

 

[Fedayn]

Apologies for being a bit chippy on the IWCA record but it hasn't really been matched 'by traditional left parties', no matter how often you keep saying otherwise. WRP -zip. SWP - zip. SLP-zip. SA - zip. Workers Power-zip...and so on.

A deliberate omission or an accident that you don't include the SSP in the above list of 'failures'?

 

[belboid]

or the SP, and, of course, he ignores the (few, admittedly) SA results that contradict his argument. All par for the course

 

[Joe Reilly]

A deliberate omission or an accident that you don't include the SSP in the above list of 'failures'?

'Accident', i was making a general point. Though given that the SSP ended up with fewer cllrs overall as far as I remember it does not invalidate the point I was making does it?

 

[Joe Reilly]

or the SP, and, of course, he ignores the (few, admittedly) SA results that contradict his argument. All par for the course

Again to repeat, we are talking here about cllrs from a 'standing start'. So the SP experience, with the one councillor in Huddersfield apart is rather different.


The SA result(s)? One cllr in Preston courtesy of as is generally acknowledged the local imam -what else of note? 10% in a
Hackney by-election. Can't think of many more off hand. In any event even if there were a couple of others decent results somewhere it has to be set against the many hundreds of humilations surely.

 

[Joe Reilly]

neither does exaggerating your real acheivements.

From the state of the IWCA branches and poll results it seems clear that if the styrategy doesn't achieve a very rapid electoral result, then the activists become burnt out and the branch collapses. At least that is what haas happened n the majority of cases. That presents an obvious problem when proposing this method as the way forward.

Another problem, for me, is that this discussion has focussed overwhelmingly on election results. Such results are important, of course, but far from being the be all and end all. The more important questions are what have those elected achieved? What did those branches that didn't manage to get anyone elected achieve? How many other people did they draw into activity? If it didn't draw others into activity, then its just another electoral representative group, isnt it?

While not in total agreement with the lengthy critique by Nigel Irritable he is undeniably right on one score. An orientation to working class communities is not easy. By its nature it is not designed to deliver rapid results electorally or otherwise. Trust has to be earned.
There in reality no quick fixes in politics.

The BNP remember had to wait a full 8 years before the implemetation of their euronationalist approach even began to pay off. For the best part of half a century the Left has hankered after instant reward with the succes of campaigns judged exclusively on what the benefit was to 'the party'. That mindset is part of what must be challenged and changed.

As for the people it drew into activity question. In oxford only one of the 4 cllrs was previously 'political' all the rest were recruited from within the wards worked by the IWCA and as a consequence of what it was able to deliver on the ground.

 

[belboid]

In any event even if there were a couple of others decent results somewhere it has to be set against the many hundreds of humilations surely.

It does (even if many of the results were also from a 'standing start'). But what could we learn from the experience, thats the question. In the local SA's case, it ws not to try and stand in too many places, and not to simply stand a 'candidate of struggle' - ie someone with a bit of a profile from some recent campaign. It was, quite simplly to build up a base of solid support due to consistent campaigning, on both local and national issues. We did that in a couple of areas here and built up a pretty good vote - almost as high as the BNP have acheived in the neighbouring ward. That wasn't bad going. If the wards were the same size as those in Oxford, we'd have beeen challenging Labour for a seat.

Which is not to say that thhe SA were therefore brilliant and if only the SWP had let us have a little more time.....The point is that community activism will always be of obvious import in an election which is bsed upon location. Given the almost total collapse of communities which serve single industries/workplaces, that should be bleeding obvious, tho it did take certain leftist groups a few attempts to actually realise that.

 

[belboid]

While not in total agreement with the lengthy critique by Nigel Irritable he is undeniably right on one score. An orientation to working class communities is not easy. By its nature it is not designed to deliver rapid results electorally or otherwise. Trust has to be earned.
There in reality no quick fixes in politics.

The BNP remember had to wait a full 8 years before the implemetation of their euronationalist approach even began to pay off. For the best part of half a century the Left has hankered after instant reward with the succes of campaigns judged exclusively on what the benefit was to 'the party'. That mindset is part of what must be challenged and changed.

As for the people it drew into activity question. In oxford only one of the 4 cllrs was previously 'political' all the rest were recruited from within the wards worked by the IWCA and as a consequence of what it was able to deliver on the ground.

I agree with all that, tho I'm not sure how it was a response to what I wrote.

 

[Fedayn]

'Accident', i was making a general point. Though given that the SSP ended up with fewer cllrs overall as far as I remember it does not invalidate the point I was making does it?

But the reason for that reduction doesn't fit into your schema too easily. A whole number of indicents whether legal, the national question and elections had an influence. 128,000 votes cannot be simply dismissed as readily as you are only too eager to do.

 

[LLETSA]

But the reason for that reduction doesn't fit into your schema too easily. A whole number of indicents whether legal, the national question and elections had an influence. 128,000 votes cannot be simply dismissed as readily as you are only too eager to do.

Do these votes matter all that much when the SSP eventually contrived, in time-honoured Trot style, to piss it all up the wall?

 

[belboid]

Do these votes matter all that much when the SSP eventually contrived, in time-honoured Trot style, to piss it all up the wall?

you could say much the same about the IWCA tho (whose one intervention into non local politics saw a very low vote and the loss of one, sizeably significant, branch)

 

[LLETSA]

you could say much the same about the IWCA tho (whose one intervention into non local politics saw a very low vote and the loss of one, sizeably significant, branch)

The two situations aren't remotely similar.

 

[belboid]

lol, no of course not.

thanks for your ever so useful analysis