Filling the Vacuum 1995

[durruti02]

1) Depends on what you mean as "this sort of thing"
Militants approach was not/is not so different is it? And they seemed to be much more succesful than Iwca.

2) Progressive politics surely means sorting out some positive ideas forsocial change.
But the approach of the IWCA along with the other orthodox left groups has always been more focused on what there against than what there for.

1) the history of Militant/SP is entirely differrent .. for example they have been going since the 1950s and e.g. SP have roots in Liverpool dating back to the 1960s ( at least) .. their strategy then was to take over defunct Labour Party ward groups .. and yes many SP do a lot of local work now but not in the way IWCA do at all

2) again sorry but simply wrong .. IWCA and HI have always been about a positive message 'w/c control in w/c areas' ... the fundamental is about creating power for w/c people .. indeed the opposite of what you wriote ios true .. it is the left who are always 'against' and argue communities can only have power AFTER a revolution

 

[durruti02]

Its the main reason in my view that the IWCA failed. You can only hope to go so far if your unprepared to admit maybe just maybe you might have got it wrong sometimes.

i disagree .. while i accept that there were/are issues with how RA and IWCA operated i would of course D) argue that HI did NOT have these issues yet our trajectory is almost identical to IWCA .. and 'elitism and arrogence' actually rarely stop the advance of political groups .. personally i think it is a number of things .. that a critical mass was not acheived, that the approach is too much like hard work for activists, that the idea of people before party is alien to the UK left, and that it is still early days

 

[sevenstars]

I'm not convinced about the 'early days' suggestion, you are as likely to lose activists over time as gain them. The militant may have had serious roots in Liverpool, but the SP have half a dozen activists as far as I can see.

If a critical mass wasnt achieved, what could have been done differently to get it?

If activists dont like hard work, what will change that?

Why have a go at the UK left (putting 'people before party' is alien to them??), are they irrelevant or are they the sort of people you want to win over to develop your critical mass ? If its it the latter how do you plan to do so?

 

[miktheword]

OK more details! I too was there when the BNP came across the street. Not particularly impressed by the tactics of "let them attack us and the police will arrest them" that AFAs leaders had on the day.
Probably not as stupid as the Reclaim the Lane event though. Events like that just helped the BNP grow in my view, giving there activists a focus.
I argued with AFA leaders that we should be attacking the BNP and driving them off Brick Lane. They said it couldnt be done that the fash had been there since WW2.
I thought it could be done.

On the day that they were finally driven off brick lane for good. They had 2 mobs C18 up the road who we chased down Bethnal grn rd first and then the mob that you probably saw running away on TV.

It was a mixture of x afa people like myself and militant. ex AFA people were organised at that time and did have a much larger effect than most people will ever realise.
We were succesful because we were concentrating on what damge we could do to the BNP not concentrating efforts on building our own organisation or slagging off the SWP.

I can't comment on your converations with people at the time. But I will disagree with your ' let them attack us ...etc' People walked calmly over the road after the signal was givent thst they were coming down the side street - to have done otherwise i.e. to have run at them would have got us all nicked and given them brick lane for the day - some who did walk calmly over the road and 'defended' themselves, with a knowing smile on their faces, got court cases for their trouble. (the result of which showed them not at their bravest - see Hepple's acccount , whether he's dodgy or not)

However, I said I wasn't denigrating the efforts of those involved - many later claimed it was us and didn't believe our denials! just don't think you've answered the substantive points about ideloical and physical oppo throughout the '90s. (as to who you are, TBaldwin? ...? well, at least you were there when they were shit!)

 

[tbaldwin]

brick lane was irrelevent .. the East End NF/BNP consituency was well on it's way out of London by this time .. the lesson of RA is that they should of set up IWCA in 1980 .. what stops fascism as Filling the Vacuum states so clearly is a w/c alternative

I am not so sure. It was just 3 days after the BNP had their first ever cllr elected. And it led them to blaming each other and falling out with each other.
If you look at the article that starts the thread look at what was written about the North West and how the BNP could not make a breakthrough there. How wrong the article was.

 

[durruti02]

If you look at the article that starts the thread look at what was written about the North West and how the BNP could not make a breakthrough there. How wrong the article was.

no it didn't .. it said that the BNP had been beaten in the North West ... the OLD Bnp .. pre 1997 .. while BNP were still street orientated .. the article correctly stated that come the election of a Labour Govt they would grow massively

 

[butchersapron]

TB, you really need to move beyond brick lane one day immediately post beackon. This article was written before Griffin was even leader. Still, at least you've finally re-read it.

 

[Joe Reilly]

OK more details! I too was there when the BNP came across the street. Not particularly impressed by the tactics of "let them attack us and the police will arrest them" that AFAs leaders had on the day.
Probably not as stupid as the Reclaim the Lane event though. Events like that just helped the BNP grow in my view, giving there activists a focus.
I argued with AFA leaders that we should be attacking the BNP and driving them off Brick Lane. They said it couldnt be done that the fash had been there since WW2.
I thought it could be done.

On the day that they were finally driven off brick lane for good. They had 2 mobs C18 up the road who we chased down Bethnal grn rd first and then the mob that you probably saw running away on TV.

It was a mixture of x afa people like myself and militant. ex AFA people were organised at that time and did have a much larger effect than most people will ever realise.
We were succesful because we were concentrating on what damge we could do to the BNP not concentrating efforts on building our own organisation or slagging off the SWP.

You've been banging on with the same theme for months. Years for all I know. Lets nail the core lies once and for all.

AFA was the one that confronted the BNP in Bethnal Green beginning in 1990. Marched through the area. Unopposed.Took over their paper -sales. (Had'nt been done since 1977-79 period). Kicked them out of their main pubs. Repeatedly attacked their meetings. Leafletted white working estates. Conducted exhibitions in local schools. Held a variety of meetings with local Asian youth. Had them on platforms in public meetings in the area. Put on an unity carnival in nearby Hackney. That was the background to a mainly Militant iniative you are championing.

On the other day referred to, 50 AFA took over their paper sale at 10 am. An attack was expected. It duly arrived with the police turning a blind eye. Afa were instructed to hold their positions until the BNP/nf were in the middle of the road. Then they were counter-attacked. That was when police intervened. 4 afa (3 from ra btw) were arrested. 'Timidly' AFA then went on celebrate in an infamous NF boozer.

The fact is no one would have been in Bethnal Green at all had aFA not given a lead. One day does not make a campaign. It would also make a very thin autiobiography. Bigging up your own role does not impress either. As you say I now know who you are.

Throughout, your posts there is the unstated insinuation, that the 'ex-AFA' left because Afa were not red-blooded enough for their taste. What a joke.


In actual fact the opposite is the case. The resignations, such as they were, took place immediately after a particularly bloody brawl in south london, (3 ambulances were needed to deal with fash injured)followed by an ambush on the BNp march, followed by another intervention in west london that led to 16 arrests and more ambulances, and resulted in very serious charges. A busy day. It was after that there was defections. MM told a leading RA member that 'people would be leaving if there wern't changes'. 'Changes' demanded being a toning down of the militant approach. The threat was ignored. You lot left. You weren't missed. End of.

 

[sevenstars]

Yes your organisation did something valuable almost 10 years ago. Where is it now? I am taking enough of an interest to see if you have evaluated why an original analysis seemed to go nowhere, I think maybe the exchange above answers that question though

 

[tbaldwin]

Joe you lot left? I dont know what you mean by my lot. I didnt leave after thamesmead. Though i must say the day i remember wasnt quite the victory you try to be claiming. I remember being in the pub and leaving the pub in a hurry as most afa people were either leaving quickly or not going in.

Your rosy coloured memories of the time probably need jogging a bit. You and RA fell out first with RIL. Then most of the Independent anarchists. Then workers power. And then DAM. It was about that time that some of us came together fed up of all the political infighting/bitching and generally wasting time.

There were as you know some good reasons why AFA were not so effective in the early 90s. But some of those were political decisions based on what i have always thought was you frustration at not getting the credit in earlier years and going for maximum publicity.

As for the IWCA what do you put your lack of success down to. You have been trying to build the IWCA for 15 years but from what i hear the numbers involved are still pitifully small and apart from Oxford your impact has been neglible.

 

[miktheword]

Joe you lot left? I dont know what you mean by my lot. I didnt leave after thamesmead. Though i must say the day i remember wasnt quite the victory you try to be claiming. I remember being in the pub and leaving the pub in a hurry as most afa people were either leaving quickly or not going in.
Your rosy coloured memories of the time probably need jogging a bit. You and RA fell out first with RIL. Then most of the Independent anarchists. Then workers power. And then DAM. It was about that time that some of us came together fed up of all the political infighting/bitching and generally wasting time.

At the risk of being pedantic, I must correct your thoughts about the day. First, he doesn't say that Abbey Wood was a victory- 'a bloody brawl' (we had to leave the pub, had just got to the bar, not organised for the row as no-one was expecting it - the pub was meant to have been checked out) But when the other mob are armed with bottles and the contents of the pool tables, to have all of the six injuries requiring hospital treatment on their side is certainly not a defeat either
The day overall was a victory; The fash seemed to think so, they decided to set up C18 after it; not that that helped them much over the coming years.

 

[tbaldwin]

There were hardly any of them in the pub. About 6 or 7 big old skinheads and about 20 people scattered around the pub who didnt nail their colours to the mast. There was about 100 odd afa suporters who got off the train. I have never quite understood why one afa member was ordering people to leave the pub?

 

[durruti02]

what i do know is that a few people i know never touched afa again and particularly hated serachlight ( who they blamed) for the nonsense in west london that day ..

but this is irrelevent to the thread tommy .. FtV clearly shows that militant anti fascism MAY work in a period when fascism is low BUT it will NOT work when the left are low and there is mass disillusionment with the establishment and hence a mass market for fascism .. this you do NOT deal with .. the BNP just recived nearly 1 million votes in the euros .. afa decided the way to deal with this was to transform into independent working class based community organisation .. and where the strategy has been applied , within limits it has suceeded ..

 

[Joe Reilly]

I remember being in the pub and leaving the pub in a hurry as most afa people were either leaving quickly or not going in.

So why don't you tell everyone what caused you to "leave the pub in a hurry", if there were as you claim, "hardly any fascists" in it?

 

[durruti02]

joe it would be useful for you to comment on how you see things havng gone from FtV thru to now .. clearly things IWCA are not going as well as they were 4 years ago ..

 

[tbaldwin]

So why don't you tell everyone what caused you to "leave the pub in a hurry", if there were as you claim, "hardly any fascists" in it?

Cos your mate (A) was standing in the door telling everyone to leave Joe.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Cos your mate (A) was standing in the door telling everyone to leave Joe.

So are you saying you 'hurried out' before the fascists kicked off - or after?

 

[tbaldwin]

So are you saying you 'hurried out' before the fascists kicked off - or after?

After i whacked the big skinhead that was defending himself a bit too well against you Joe!

 

[Joe Reilly]

After i whacked the big skinhead that was defending himself a bit too well against you Joe!

I was rather enjoying the interrogation but it's already painfully clear that

you wern't in the pub at all. Or even outside of it. From other comments

you've made I'd guess you weren't at the first Brick Lane either.

Does rather put the doughty 'anti-fascist fighter' status you have fashioned

for yourself on here in a different light though. Still, you had a good run.

 

[miktheword]

After i whacked the big skinhead that was defending himself a bit too well against you Joe!

Either you weren't there Tb or you are deliberately falsifying events for political purposes. (so you whacked the big 'un before having to depart because you were told to do so; marvellous control of adrenaline)
I've been chewing the fat with some old school quasi fash ex-Tottenham hooligans on a different site last year. The thread was actually about hatfield gigs, Cockney reds, MOF / Joe R / Spurs aginst the Nazis and keep the Park Lane White.
At least there was honesty involved in the posts, including from the 'AngloSaxonMan' living in Oz who heard from his mates something even more outlandish than what you are stating Tb;



Advanced MemberGroup: YidsPosts: 410Member No.: 222Joined: 5-November 07
alrite jack , was u part of the mob who did some damage on their main players when a big group of red action got off the train on the way to the rally aginst the bnp bookshop some years ago
they ran into a few lads from dartford , crayford and woolwich who were drinking in a pub by the station [/I]

anglosaxonman Posted: Dec 1 2008, 11:14 PM
Advanced MemberGroup: YidsPosts: 410Member No.: 222Joined: 5-November 07

sorry mick , but your wrong there
i understand that you dont want your lot to have to admit defeat ( like chelsea never get run syndrome ) but i knew the lot in abbey wood and you run into a particularly good mob of local lads , not leeds , the way i heard it was the red scum arrived and the lads steamed out and ran them , then faded away before plod arrived , now i assume you werent there as i wasnt , ill admit that , hey im 13000 miles away in oz now , but i got this by a few different sources a couple who since have moved out here

Group: YidsPosts: 47Member No.: 283Joined: 6-November 07Warn: (0%)

Anglosaxonman - appreciate your reply and the manner of it again, but have to say, I was there - and at the bar when it kicked off (probably wouldn't have been one of the first in if I'd known what lay ahead!) As I said, we had to leave the boozer, but our best elements weren't up front - a few were, It was a heavy half a minute, our lot, still coming in, as I said, had to leave, but the injuries, i saw the stretchers and those availing themselves of our glorious socialist NHS (lol) were all from the Nationalists, or whatever. One of ours, a main player, had a large plaster on his head and some were bruised a day later, but that was it.- we were standing right outside the boozer for 5 mins before OB turned up to move us on. Only one to come out was landlord saying ' there's no BM in here!' (simultaneous to his appearance came a table through the window which was probably an indication of the 'nervous energy' of those still inside the boozer. ) But there were 6 hospital cases, we were there long enough to view them, before being moved i think to the top of a hill.



Dec 7 2008, 12:20 AM NewbieGroup: YidsPosts: 47Member No.: 283
Joined: 6-November 07


anglosaxonman. Yeah no point arguing, but just to clear up a few points. There was only one maybe two stretcher cases ( I think I said 'needed hospital treatment). The first and biggest bloke up, obviously recognising one of the main players next to me, said' who wants some'. Bloke next to me said after, I let him hit me, so i could duck beneath the bar, get a glass, glass him - I think he was one of two carried into the ambulance.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Either you weren't there Tb or you are deliberately falsifying events for political purposes. (so you whacked the big 'un before having to depart because you were told to do so; marvellous control of adrenaline)
I've been chewing the fat with some old school quasi fash ex-Tottenham hooligans on a different site last year. The thread was actually about hatfield gigs, Cockney reds, MOF / Joe R / Spurs aginst the Nazis and keep the Park Lane White.
At least there was honesty involved in the posts, including from the 'AngloSaxonMan' living in Oz who heard from his mates something even more outlandish than what you are stating Tb;



Advanced MemberGroup: YidsPosts: 410Member No.: 222Joined: 5-November 07
alrite jack , was u part of the mob who did some damage on their main players when a big group of red action got off the train on the way to the rally aginst the bnp bookshop some years ago
they ran into a few lads from dartford , crayford and woolwich who were drinking in a pub by the station [/I]

anglosaxonman Posted: Dec 1 2008, 11:14 PM
Advanced MemberGroup: YidsPosts: 410Member No.: 222Joined: 5-November 07

sorry mick , but your wrong there
i understand that you dont want your lot to have to admit defeat ( like chelsea never get run syndrome ) but i knew the lot in abbey wood and you run into a particularly good mob of local lads , not leeds , the way i heard it was the red scum arrived and the lads steamed out and ran them , then faded away before plod arrived , now i assume you werent there as i wasnt , ill admit that , hey im 13000 miles away in oz now , but i got this by a few different sources a couple who since have moved out here

Group: YidsPosts: 47Member No.: 283Joined: 6-November 07Warn: (0%)

Anglosaxonman - appreciate your reply and the manner of it again, but have to say, I was there - and at the bar when it kicked off (probably wouldn't have been one of the first in if I'd known what lay ahead!) As I said, we had to leave the boozer, but our best elements weren't up front - a few were, It was a heavy half a minute, our lot, still coming in, as I said, had to leave, but the injuries, i saw the stretchers and those availing themselves of our glorious socialist NHS (lol) were all from the Nationalists, or whatever. One of ours, a main player, had a large plaster on his head and some were bruised a day later, but that was it.- we were standing right outside the boozer for 5 mins before OB turned up to move us on. Only one to come out was landlord saying ' there's no BM in here!' (simultaneous to his appearance came a table through the window which was probably an indication of the 'nervous energy' of those still inside the boozer. ) But there were 6 hospital cases, we were there long enough to view them, before being moved i think to the top of a hill.



Dec 7 2008, 12:20 AM NewbieGroup: YidsPosts: 47Member No.: 283
Joined: 6-November 07


anglosaxonman. Yeah no point arguing, but just to clear up a few points. There was only one maybe two stretcher cases ( I think I said 'needed hospital treatment). The first and biggest bloke up, obviously recognising one of the main players next to me, said' who wants some'. Bloke next to me said after, I let him hit me, so i could duck beneath the bar, get a glass, glass him - I think he was one of two carried into the ambulance.

Does give rather more of the flavour but not entirely convinced. Some of the descriptions/scenes correct but sequenced wrongly. 40-50 local Fash were in the pub. 60 AFA arrived at same pub for a pre-arranged rendevous with a black firm from South London. Pub was meant to have been scouted but wasn't, (Christy, one of baldwins chums I suspect) As soon as they saw us it kicked off. Fierce and bloody brawl. Only a dozen or so AFA (all staunch types luckily) were actually involved. Forced out. Went to nearby pub (50 yds at most) to re-group and keep appointment. Plod forced us to move on. Directed us back past fash pub. Fash thought we were coming back for seconds...fled inside. Others hid in bookies

 

[tbaldwin]

I was rather enjoying the interrogation but it's already painfully clear that

you wern't in the pub at all. Or even outside of it. From other comments

you've made I'd guess you weren't at the first Brick Lane either.

Does rather put the doughty 'anti-fascist fighter' status you have fashioned

for yourself on here in a different light though. Still, you had a good run.

Joe what a twat your sounding.
So desperate to impress people on here with the AFA story your trying to put things out of your mind or maybe youve got dementia?
You know full well i was at both events.
After Thamesmead the spin put on the events at the pub in Abbey wood were always a bit of an embarrasment....Yet all these years on you still keep spinning...

The truth is that AFA had a huge numerical advantage and the fash attacked us not the other way round. They did it in a blind panic as soon as they realised how many people might be about to enter the pub.

 

[tbaldwin]

But back to the thread.
Interesting that RA/AFA fell out with so many people in the past Joe and that you have not managed to build a succesful organisation depsite i am sure no lack of effort on your part.
SO WHAT DO YOU PUT THE LACK OF IWCA SUCCESS DOWN TO ?

 

[Joe Reilly]

Joe what a twat your sounding.
So desperate to impress people on here with the AFA story your trying to put things out of your mind or maybe youve got dementia?
You know full well i was at both events.
After Thamesmead the spin put on the events at the pub in Abbey wood were always a bit of an embarrasment....Yet all these years on you still keep spinning...

The truth is that AFA had a huge numerical advantage and the fash attacked us not the other way round. They did it in a blind panic as soon as they realised how many people might be about to enter the pub.

You've already a proven liar. Throw away the shovel.

 

[tbaldwin]

You've already a proven liar. Throw away the shovel.

Proven liar Joe? Try backing that up.

 

[treelover]

What a bizzarre turn in this thread, bigging up the violence, etc not a Left i want to be part of.

 

[durruti02]

You've already a proven liar. Throw away the shovel.

Joe, i do not know all the details of these events - if i have the right day, i was at the action in thamesmead (we had a tactical disagreement at one point i seem to remember), and at the nonsense in kensington, and left when the offer was made to do so, so i have no idea whether you or TB are right in the details

.. i never had the size, strength, fighting skills nor bottle nor inclination to be on the frontline of AFA, but what i do know is that you do know who TB is and that he was where he says he was, though whether his memory of this skirmish or yours is right or wrong as i say i have no idea nor any interest

.. what i also know is that this is irrelevent to this thread and the very serious issue of how we react to the BNP advance

 

[miktheword]

What a bizzarre turn in this thread, bigging up the violence, etc not a Left i want to be part of.

it may be a turn in the thread, but you go where the comments of the posters leads you - especially if they make outlandish claims that fit in with History re-writing amongst what passes for a Left in this country. Downplaying the role of others and overstating their own.

Its hardly 'bigging up the violence'; its more a comment on the effectiveness of the violence that HAD to be used as a tactic in the days spoken of. (Even close calls like Abbey Wood would have made their lot think quite a few times about returning; more so when they've been hospitalised.

The 'nonsense of West London' has been mentioned a few times; well it seems to have had a dual benefit of humiliating them (including some skins arriving late in black BNSM uniforms - wonder what fun they were intending for their night time entertainment had they not been escorted home in a London ambulance?) and getting rid of some of those hanging around AFA who really did not know what they were letting themselves in for.

If the Fash at the time, weren't on the receiving end, if they ever went home thinking 'that was a piece of piss' then they bring their mates next week; their confidence grows; their presence in areas that 'The Left' like to frequent would have made it much harder for them to have meetings, carnivals, tree hugging days out etc these days. You'd just be left with internet forums.

 

[sevenstars]

It does highlight the irrevelance of the IWCA though, I think we can leave them to their reminiscing now

 

[Sue]

It does highlight the irrevelance of the IWCA though, I think we can leave them to their reminiscing now

The analysis in the Filling the Vacuum document was spot on. I'd say it highlights the absolute relevance of groups such as the IWCA.