Filling the Vacuum 1995

[poster342002]

The sad fact is that we are living in an era of a growing tide of vile, rightwing reaction that shows no sign of abating and there's no popular mood pushing the other way.

It's going to get a lot, lot worse.

 

[tbaldwin]

Hasn't your counsellor told you that permanent grudges are unhealthy?

Let it go.

But i dont hold a grudge against anyone in the IWCA. I have no regrets about being involved in Red Action either. I joined and left for good reasons.
But some of the reasons i left RA are now part and parcel of my political beliefs. When i joined RA i thought that the main problem with the political left was that they were too dominated by Middle Class people.
When i left RA i thought that elitism was the main problem.

 

[tbaldwin]

1) but IWCA said do something differrent .. they said instead of patrachuting in to areas e.g. BG and fire fighting you need to get involved over the long term and get your hands dirty on the day to day .. so differrent

2) like i say i think they never threw off their leftism in the way they acted organisationally .. but that is NOT a critique of the core idea of the IWCA

3) that is simply untrue mate .. Respect, apart from in Bolsover, only ever got any votes close to IWCA by using the mosque .. but i accept some indies have done well .. i think they are worth looking at ..

1 And how succesfully did they do this over the last 15 years.
2 Fair enough.
3 How many cllrs did IWCA ever get? How many MPs?

 

[butchersapron]

Well say what they are for gods sake 'tommy'! Make e political point.

I have no regrets about being involved in Red Action either. I joined and left for good reasons.
But some of the reasons i left RA are now part and parcel of my political beliefs

 

[tbaldwin]

Well say what they are for gods sake 'tommy'! Make e political point.

I joined because i wanted to be politically active. I wanted to be involved in fighting fascism. I wanted something practical to get involved that was to the left of labour.
I left because RA seemed more of a social club than anything and it was a social club that seemed to be growing less and less social!
And if that sounds like a contradiction its probably cos it is.

People who left or werent involved as much as they had been got really slagged off and that really pissed me off. Yeah maybe that doesnt sound that political.But if you turn on former friends so quickly, what does it say about you what doesit say about your politics?

 

[sevenstars]

Im not sure that 'lack of capacity' is really convincing on its own as an explanation for the IWCA's failure to fill the vacum.

Surely the point of any political strategy is to mobilise and organise people, thus developing your capacity? If that doesnt work you have to reflect on either your original analysis or your strategy to implement it.

Maybe you just set yourselves too hard a task, and its no shame to acknowledge that you wernt up to it.

My own view is that the IWCA had a contradictory position towards the activist left, people like me who are just trying to change things as best we can and could have been won over to it. They told us on the one hand we were rubbish and irrelevant, and on the other hand, well they kept telling us we were rubbish and irrelevant! You had to wonder why they didnt just ignore us and get on with proving their own point...

It just looked like another sectarian repeat in that respect, thats why I gave it a body swerve myself despite thinking the analysis had some merits

 

[butchersapron]

I joined because i wanted to be politically active. I wanted to be involved in fighting fascism. I wanted something practical to get involved that was to the left of labour.
I left because RA seemed more of a social club than anything and it was a social club that seemed to be growing less and less social!
And if that sounds like a contradiction its probably cos it is.

People who left or werent involved as much as they had been got really slagged off and that really pissed me off. Yeah maybe that doesnt sound that political.But if you turn on former friends so quickly, what does it say about you what doesit say about your politics?

No, make a poltical point, not a social one.

 

[butchersapron]

Surely the point of any political strategy is to mobilise and organise people, thus developing your capacity?

Is it?

 

[tbaldwin]

No, make a poltical point, not a social one.

I dont see the two as that seperate to be honest.

The politics became more and more like other far left groups inthe time i was in them. At first the paper and the organisation was dominated by one person MoF. I always liked him he was pragmatic and concentrated his political efforts where he thought he and RA could be most effective.
When he left the organisation became more and more dogmatic.

Dogmatism to me is one of the main reasons the Left is so fucked.
People who never seem to have any doubts that they are right, usually just end up talking shite.

 

[butchersapron]

All you've said is that Mick o' F was mint and it was shit after that. That's not a political or social point really. Put some meat on those bones.

 

[tbaldwin]

All you've said is that Mick o' F was mint and it was shit after that. That's not a political or social point really. Put some meat on those bones.

Rubbish.
The politics is blatant. I believe in pragmatism not top down dogmatism. If you dont understand that as political you better go back to speaking in loony left speak....

 

[butchersapron]

You've made no political point.

 

[durruti02]

You've made no political point.

i think he has BA .. he has said that RA were elitist and dogmatic .. that IS political .. and in the context of discussing why IWCA has not done better MAYBE that is a even the critical political issue

btw is the personal not political??

 

[butchersapron]

If it's used as a weapon to avoid discusion of the actual politial points then yes, it's political - in the worst sense. But his words and his personal odessy he oulined deserve more ths this cop-out don't they?

 

[durruti02]

If it's used as a weapon to avoid discusion of the actual politial points then yes, it's political - in the worst sense. But his words and his personal odessy he oulined deserve more ths this cop-out don't they?

that was me who said that not him but the key political point he makes, that RA were elitist and dogmatic remains

 

[butchersapron]

But that's not the point - he's made it the point! And avoided all political points to get there.

 

[sevenstars]

Is it?

Ok then, surely the point of a political strategy is to develop your capacity to be able to change things ?

If its merely to pointscore against people then I will leave you to get on with it. I thought there was the potential for some debate about why the IWCA has failed, like the rest of the 'left', to fill the vacuum left by Labour. But maybe there isnt

 

[butchersapron]

Of course there is - but we ned to sort out what we're on about. So yes, i apologise, my question was glib, unhelpful and picking on one point.

 

[tbaldwin]

But that's not the point - he's made it the point! And avoided all political points to get there.

What political points do you think i avoided butchers?
And do you not think that the dogmatism and up their own arse elitism of the left is political?

 

[The39thStep]

Is the point really that RA was allegedly full of elitism and dogmatism? Is this the reason why projects like the IWCA and HSG haven't sustained their initial success?

Is it the model itself? The success in Oxford, the near miss in Islington and the healthy vote HSG got doesn't suggest that the model is a problem apart from the fact that it flies in the face of the far left orthodoxy and for that matter the anarchist scene.It is true that most of the far left cannot see any political life outside the party apart without gravitating to the greens ,liberalism or the latest 'unity' initiative and in some cases even New labour. Did those of us who support IWCA type projects really hope to convince that mileu? Its true that we all know posters/people who have broken with their poltical past and support the idea of the IWCA.

A deeper and more soul searching admission would be that a number of us who support the project have never set up a branch ourselves.

 

[tbaldwin]

Is the point really that RA was allegedly full of elitism and dogmatism? Is this the reason why projects like the IWCA and HSG haven't sustained their initial success?

Its the main reason in my view that the IWCA failed. You can only hope to go so far if your unprepared to admit maybe just maybe you might have got it wrong sometimes.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Its the main reason in my view that the IWCA failed. You can only hope to go so far if your unprepared to admit maybe just maybe you might have got it wrong sometimes.

Isn't there are bigger question here, though? Why isn't anybody outside of the IWCA/HI/HSG doing this sort of thing?

If 'Filling The Vacuum' has any merit (and most people here seem to think it has) then why has nobody else taken the ball and run with it?

It's not because the IWCA has a monopoly on the ideas. My suspicion is that it has more to do with the work being a lot harder than the usual counter-cultural activity which passes for revolutionary politics for a lot of people.

 

[tbaldwin]

Isn't there are bigger question here, though? Why isn't anybody outside of the IWCA/HI/HSG doing this sort of thing?

If 'Filling The Vacuum' has any merit (and most people here seem to think it has) then why has nobody else taken the ball and run with it?

It's not because the IWCA has a monopoly on the ideas. My suspicion is that it has more to do with the work being a lot harder than the usual counter-cultural activity which passes for revolutionary politics for a lot of people.

Depends on what you mean as "this sort of thing"
Militants approach was not/is not so different is it? And they seemed to be much more succesful than Iwca.

Progressive politics surely means sorting out some positive ideas forsocial change.
But the approach of the IWCA along with the other orthodox left groups has always been more focused on what there against than what there for.

 

[sevenstars]

Thats 2 broad suggestions so far

1) the strategy is very hard for activists to put into practice and to keep doing so, without developing more activists (capacity). This is of course true for every radical, socialist or anti-capitalist strategy at the moment

2) The IWCA itself replicated some of the dogmatism, elitism and sectarianism of the traditional left

Other forces do take up community strategies from time to time, where I live a residents action group got going last year. Though it didnt sustain itself it did demonstrate the potential there is and completely marginalised the BNP presence here and made me feel a lot safer personally

However the people involved want to work with everybody, they are not that interested in political ideology let alone ideological slanging matces, and I cant see how they would have orientated towards any group that seems to be mainly about this.

Whereas most left activists I know, like most of the population, come from basically working class backgrounds. It might be easier for us to orientate towards traditional left parties and politics, but if you cant win a sizeable chunk of politicised and radicalised people like us round you arent ever going to develop that capacity.

My conclusion is that people like me, socialists and trade unionists, have to be more rooted in our communities and an organisation or network that is more focussed on helping us with this would be great.

 

[Joe Reilly]

All you've said is that Mick o' F was mint and it was shit after that.

MO'F left RA in - 1988. This was prior to the democratic re-launch of London AFA in 1989 which drew in both anarchist and trot groupings. Over the next five years AFA added another 40 branches stretching from edinburgh to southampton. The structure was bottom up. It was in this period that AFA saw off C18, B&H and the BNP. The main point of contention between RA and the MOF faction related to the class composition of both Labour and the Left and the consequences that would inevitably flow from that fact. It might have been a long time coming but the evidence is surely there for all to see today.

Ps As far as I am aware thBaldwin was never a member of RA.

 

[tbaldwin]

MO'F left RA in - 1988. This was prior to the democratic re-launch of London AFA in 1989 which drew in both anarchist and trot groupings. Over the next five years AFA added another 40 branches stretching from edinburgh to southampton. The structure was bottom up. It was in this period that AFA saw off C18, B&H and the BNP. The main point of contention between RA and the MOF faction related to the class composition of both Labour and the Left and the consequences that would inevitably flow from that fact. It might have been a long time coming but the evidence is surely there for all to see today.

Ps As far as I am aware thBaldwin was never a member of RA.

1 The structure was bottom up yet what happened to the Yorkshire branch?
RA/AFA deserve lots of credit in the 80s when most of the left seemed disinterested in fighting fascism. But when you took RA over you showed your skill in helping RA and AFA grow but were you more or less effective in fighting fascists. I would say less.
When the BNP got beacon elected you were at the height of your ineffectiveness. Still putting out pointless leaflets about how much better AFA was than the ANL when some people were busier actually physically confronting fascists eg brick lane etc.

PS I think you know exactly who i am but if your in any doubt you can PM me.

 

[The39thStep]

The sad fact is that we are living in an era of a growing tide of vile, rightwing reaction that shows no sign of abating and there's no popular mood pushing the other way.

It's going to get a lot, lot worse.

Bloody hell , it was only two years ago that we were in a prerevolutionary period and only a year go in an era of unprecendeted economic expansion accoding to one wing of the Trotelt left.

On a serious note though are we really in a growing tide of right wing reaction? Mori polls etc are quite mixed on changes in attitudes ; less support capital punishment, more say you don't have to be white to be British, whilst there has been a rise in those saying there is too much immigration. (the latter is my view isn't a left right issue). There are no organised fascist marches, no attacks on trade unions, no bans on the left etc.

We are living in a period where the BNP are more succesful than the left on filling the vacuum and even then some are attracted to the BNP as they see some of their policies as being to the left of labour.

 

[miktheword]

1 The structure was bottom up yet what happened to the Yorkshire branch?
RA/AFA deserve lots of credit in the 80s when most of the left seemed disinterested in fighting fascism. But when you took RA over you showed your skill in helping RA and AFA grow but were you more or less effective in fighting fascists. I would say less.
When the BNP got beacon elected you were at the height of your ineffectiveness. Still putting out pointless leaflets about how much better AFA was than the ANL when some people were busier actually physically confronting fascists eg brick lane etc.
PS I think you know exactly who i am but if your in any doubt you can PM me.

I think this point needs explaining in more detail. In the '90s, I remember lots of Brick lanes and lots of 'etcs'. In fact I remeber beacon, Lecomber et al hightailing it back up the side street of brick lane in the '90s the day after their National Conference.(That certainly wasn't on the agenda, especially when they were trying to impress the Scottish branches they had down for the weekend)
Who, exactly, was busier physically confronting fascists in this period? why were the leaflets pointless? did you want those engaged physically to remain as a tight knit group without engaging the local community?
At a guess, I would venture that you're referring to the crew of assorted anarchos , DAM maybe, that attacked a mob of theirs that was shown on t.v. (not one of their better mobs either). You were busier on that one day. After Lecomber et al had declared a change of strategy as physical confrontation had worked; 'no more meetings, marches, punch ups...remember? Not to denigrate your efforts, but nor should you of those who were involved in both physical and ideological confrontation throughout the '90s.

 

[tbaldwin]

I think this point needs explaining in more detail. In the '90s, I remember lots of Brick lanes and lots of 'etcs'. In fact I remeber beacon, Lecomber et al hightailing it back up the side street of brick lane in the '90s the day after their National Conference.(That certainly wasn't on the agenda, especially when they were trying to impress the Scottish branches they had down for the weekend)
Who, exactly, was busier physically confronting fascists in this period? why were the leaflets pointless? did you want those engaged physically to remain as a tight knit group without engaging the local community?
At a guess, I would venture that you're referring to the crew of assorted anarchos , DAM maybe, that attacked a mob of theirs that was shown on t.v. (not one of their better mobs either). You were busier on that one day. After Lecomber et al had declared a change of strategy as physical confrontation had worked; 'no more meetings, marches, punch ups...remember? Not to denigrate your efforts, but nor should you of those who were involved in both physical and ideological confrontation throughout the '90s.

OK more details! I too was there when the BNP came across the street. Not particularly impressed by the tactics of "let them attack us and the police will arrest them" that AFAs leaders had on the day.
Probably not as stupid as the Reclaim the Lane event though. Events like that just helped the BNP grow in my view, giving there activists a focus.
I argued with AFA leaders that we should be attacking the BNP and driving them off Brick Lane. They said it couldnt be done that the fash had been there since WW2.
I thought it could be done.

On the day that they were finally driven off brick lane for good. They had 2 mobs C18 up the road who we chased down Bethnal grn rd first and then the mob that you probably saw running away on TV.

It was a mixture of x afa people like myself and militant. ex AFA people were organised at that time and did have a much larger effect than most people will ever realise.
We were succesful because we were concentrating on what damge we could do to the BNP not concentrating efforts on building our own organisation or slagging off the SWP.

 

[durruti02]

brick lane was irrelevent .. the East End NF/BNP consituency was well on it's way out of London by this time .. the lesson of RA is that they should of set up IWCA in 1980 .. what stops fascism as Filling the Vacuum states so clearly is a w/c alternative