Feminism and a world designed for men

[friendofdorothy]

Following on from JudithB 's thread again. Thanks to Poot for bringing up the subject of how the world is designed for men and and Winot for linking to this book Invisible Women Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men by Caroline Criado Perez – Invisible Women

It’s a smart strategy, therefore, to invite readers to view this timeworn topic through the revealing lens of data, bringing to light the hidden places where inequality still resides. Criado Perez has assembled a cornucopia of statistics – from how blind auditions have increased the proportion of female players hired by orchestras to nearly 50%, to the good reasons why women take up to 2.3 times as long as men to use the toilet. This is a man’s world, we learn, because those who built it didn’t take gender differences into account. Most offices, we learn, are five degrees too cold for women, because the formula to determine their temperature was developed in the 1960s based on the metabolic resting rate of a 40-year-old, 70kg man; women’s metabolisms are slower. Women in Britain are 50% more likely to be misdiagnosed following a heart attack: heart failure trials generally use male participants. Cars are designed around the body of “Reference Man”, so although men are more likely to crash, women involved in collisions are nearly 50% more likely to be seriously hurt.

Females are 51% of the population but the world its systems, technology, medicine and so much more are not designed with us in mind. Why?

This issue makes me livid.

 

[JudithB]

Me too! And great topic for threat Dorothy

Can we start by sharing our best/worst encounters in a world made for men?

1. Kitchen cupboards and high shelves for me. I have cupboards and shelves in the kitchen for things we hardly ever use because it's such an arse for anyone apart from the big male person in our house to reach anything that's in them. All hail the steps we keep in the kitchen for when he's not around
2. Being cold in the office. Apparently there's an actual reason we women keep cardigans on the backs of our chairs.

 

[Sue]

Being cold in the office. Apparently there's an actual reason we women keep cardigans on the backs of our chairs.

Is that really a male/female thing? Aren't women meant to typically have more body fat than men so should actually feel the cold less..?

 

[Sweet FA]

Is that really a male/female thing? Aren't women meant to typically have more body fat than men so should actually feel the cold less..?

Good summary of the book with links here: The deadly truth about a world built for men – from stab vests to car crashes

'The formula to determine standard office temperature was developed in the 1960s around the metabolic resting rate of the average man. But a recent Dutch study found that the metabolic rate of young adult females performing light office work is significantly lower than the standard values for men doing the same activity. In fact, the formula may overestimate female metabolic rate by as much as 35%, meaning that current offices are on average five degrees too cold for women. This leads to the odd sight of female office workers wrapped in blankets in the summer, while their male colleagues wander around in shorts.'

 

[Sue]

Interesting Sweet FA. I'd no idea!

 

[redsquirrel]

Is that really a male/female thing? Aren't women meant to typically have more body fat than men so should actually feel the cold less..?

Somewhat anecdotal but there's some basis for it.

 

[Sweet FA]

Me neither Sue

 

[Poot]

Somewhat anecdotal but there's some basis for it.

That's Australian and talks mostly about aircon. And the comments are shit.

 

[newbie]

To add a slightly different take, there was an interesting programme on R4 earlier about how in the early days computing was a job for women, but that changed as soon as the technology became important.

 

[scifisam]

The cupboards and things are what I come across most often. So many things designed for average height men despite the fact that most people are shorter than average height men.

I taught at one school where the chair was fixed to the desk in a way that would have meant a pregnant woman couldn't fit in. It would have been difficult for some overweight people too, but at least you're not actually squishing a baby's head.

Also, and this is a really minor thing, but I like geeky t-shirts and an awful lot of them are only for men, or there are technically some available in a woman's shape but they're never in stock. Obvs women can wear men's t-shirts, and some do, but the shape doesn't suit most women - some don't care, but I do. Went around Forbidden Planet the other day and they had one women's shape t-shirt in the entire shop, as well as about 100 men's t-shirts.

 

[colacubes]

To add a slightly different take, there was an interesting programme on R4 earlier about how in the early days computing was a job for women, but that changed as soon as the technology became important.

This is an excellent book about that:

Programmed Inequality, How Britain Discarded Women Technologists and Lost Its Edge in Computing

 

[Poot]

The cupboards and things are what I come across most often. So many things designed for average height men despite the fact that most people are shorter than average height men.

I taught at one school where the chair was fixed to the desk in a way that would have meant a pregnant woman couldn't fit in. It would have been difficult for some overweight people too, but at least you're not actually squishing a baby's head.

Also, and this is a really minor thing, but I like geeky t-shirts and an awful lot of them are only for men, or there are technically some available in a woman's shape but they're never in stock. Obvs women can wear men's t-shirts, and some do, but the shape doesn't suit most women - some don't care, but I do. Went around Forbidden Planet the other day and they had one women's shape t-shirt in the entire shop, as well as about 100 men's t-shirts.

When I was seven months pregnant my mother asked me when I was going to stop driving. I mean, I wasn't planning to but it's not possible to drive even a small car if you're small with a large bump because your feet won't reach the pedals when your bump is squashing the steering wheel. I can only imagine the safety implications in a crash (seatbelt goes under bump). It was just sort of understood that you stop driving (even though you can barely walk by that stage!). Never mind not being able to close the boot (and this is a Corsa - hardly huge).

My current bugbear is good, strong, thick socks which are never available in my size when I see them. Because women notoriously never get cold feet!

And yes, the mean height is the mean height, not the mean height of a man. I have the same kitchen woes.

 

[JudithB]

To add a slightly different take, there was an interesting programme on R4 earlier about how in the early days computing was a job for women, but that changed as soon as the technology became important.

There is something I feel might be a nasty MRA meme called "learn to code" all over twitter at the moment. I wonder if there is reference to this fact or if it is pure reference to gamergate

 

[friendofdorothy]

To add a slightly different take, there was an interesting programme on R4 earlier about how in the early days computing was a job for women, but that changed as soon as the technology became important.

Can't recall if it was that programme or another R4 one that was talking about the inbuilt prejudice in the way computers discriminated against women eg:
- not selecting CVs of perfectly qualified women for a job shortlist
- or translation programs that when asked to translate 'He is a nurse' & 'She is president' into turkish that hasn't got gendered pronouns, then back in to english it became 'She is a nurse' & 'He is president'
chnology more and more.
- also in not recognising non white faces as human (but thats for another thread)
There seems to be an issue of blatant sexism as well as gender bias going on inside tech companies that has far reaching effects as we all rely so much on the technology.

 

[friendofdorothy]

When I was seven months pregnant my mother asked me when I was going to stop driving. I mean, I wasn't planning to but it's not possible to drive even a small car if you're small with a large bump because your feet won't reach the pedals when your bump is squashing the steering wheel. I can only imagine the safety implications in a crash (seatbelt goes under bump). It was just sort of understood that you stop driving (even though you can barely walk by that stage!).

Humph the unexpected consequences of 'Safety' law . When seat belts were first made compulsary in the '70s, They weren't retractable and adjustable as they are now a lot of women found them extremely uncomfortable (where are you supposed to put your tits?) and they often went across your neck if you were short. I don't recall the issue of pregnant women even being mentioned (but then pregnant women were generally invisible and barely mentioned at all.)
I don't recall hearing it at the time (did it get any publicity), but heard recently women were actually killed by seatbelts.

Thinking of pregnancy - Thalidomide was deemed 'safe' for pregnant women. I heard that drugs in general never used to be tested on women as it was considered that our menstruation mucked up the results, a brief search found this:

Year Event
1962  Thalidomide tragedy in Europe results in United States Congress to pass the Kefauver-Harris Amendment to mandate changes in drug development and strengthen the authority of the FDA
1975  National Commission for the Protection of Human Subjects and Biomedical and Behavioral Research promulgates new rule which includes pregnant women as a vulnerable research subjects
1977  FDA guideline “General considerations for the clinical evaluation of drugs” essentially bans women of child-bearing potential from participating in early phase clinical research, except for life-threatening conditions
1985  Report from U.S. Public Health Service Task Force on Women’s Health concludes “research should emphasize disease unique to women or more prevalent in women”
1986  NIH advisory committee recommends to grant applicants that women be included in studies; if women are not included, clear rationale must be provided
1988  FDA “Guideline for the format and content of the clinical and statistical sections of new drug applications” specifies the importance of examining data within NDA databases for differences in safety or efficacy in subgroup populations, including gender
1990  Office of Research on Women’s Health established at the NIH
1993  FDA guideline “Guideline for the study and evaluation of gender differences in the clinical evaluation of drugs” reverses the 1977 guidance

Women’s involvement in clinical trials: historical perspective and future implications

 

[friendofdorothy]

Toilets! are new buildings built with more cubicles for women yet?

 

[JudithB]

Toilets! are new buildings built with more cubicles for women yet?

Unfortunately I do not frequent the men's to find out the balance. Aren't they making lots women's gender neutral these days or is this a scaremongering story? I don't get out much

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm not sure how common place gender neutral loos actually are, perhaps someone will have a link. It's a shame that gender neutral toilets, in my experience, usually means reeking of/or liberally sprinkled with male piss.

 

[weepiper]

I have worked in bike shops since 1996 and not once have I ever had a workbench that was at the right height. This makes it difficult for me to reach tools, difficult to use a vice because the item I need to cut with a saw or drill is too high for me to use my muscles efficiently or to get on top of for gravity to help. I used to have to stand on an upside down crate to true wheels in my last job because the jig was about 8" too high. I have to wear a small men's polo shirt for uniform because the mechanic's shirts are not available in a women's cut. It's like a tent on me.

 

[JudithB]

My current bugbear is good, strong, thick socks which are never available in my size when I see them. Because women notoriously never get cold feet!

I used to wear boy's football socks because I wanted something to keep my calves warm under bootleg trousers back in the day. Perhaps the boy's section will help you out? I also used to wear an older nephew's discarded trainers back in the day because men's trainers were so much nicer looking than women's at the time. And he grew out of my size super quickly

 

[JudithB]

I'm not sure how common place gender neutral loos actually are, perhaps someone will have a link. It's a shame that gender neutral toilets, in my experience, usually means reeking of/or liberally sprinkled with male piss.

And girl's missing school if stories from Wales are to be believed. But let's try not to go down that rabbit hole. I promised on the last thread we wouldn't get distracted with ID politics and I'd hate to screw up your thread...

 

[friendofdorothy]

And girl's missing school if stories from Wales are to be believed. But let's try not to go down that rabbit hole. I promised on the last thread we wouldn't get distracted with ID politics and I'd hate to screw up your thread...

Thanks. discuss toilet provision by all means.

I'd like to ban all references to ID politics on this thread as anyone wanting to take the discussion that way should take it to the existing really long thread on that subject >>>

 

[Gramsci]

Can't recall if it was that programme or another R4 one that was talking about the inbuilt prejudice in the way computers discriminated against women eg:
- not selecting CVs of perfectly qualified women for a job shortlist
- or translation programs that when asked to translate 'He is a nurse' & 'She is president' into turkish that hasn't got gendered pronouns, then back in to english it became 'She is a nurse' & 'He is president'
chnology more and more.
- also in not recognising non white faces as human (but thats for another thread)
There seems to be an issue of blatant sexism as well as gender bias going on inside tech companies that has far reaching effects as we all rely so much on the technology.

l listened to most of that programme. Yes the examples you put up are correct.

What is most disturbing is that this is getting to be insitiutionalised in algorithms. Such as the Turkish translation.

Its moving beyond men making gender bias to algorithms doing it as part of the way they have been set up.

I've started reading a novel about some of these issues. Gnomen.

Gnomon

 

[Sea Star]

Thanks. discuss toilet provision by all means.

I'd like to ban all references to ID politics on this thread as anyone wanting to take the discussion that way should take it to the existing really long thread on that subject >>>

i'd rather that thread was binned tbh

(also, if feminism isn't id politics what is it? - or is it just trans women's perspectives not being welcome on here?)

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Well blow me down. I now realise that I’ve been complaining about this shit all my life but never really stopped to think it was about being an invisible woman.

I’m not really short but I have a little foot stool in my kitchen because I can’t reach the top shelf, and I have to stand on tip toe to do anything that needs me to lean in, lean down with my weight. I’ve always assumed “I’m too short” and suddenly finally I’m aware that it’s the default design that’s wrong.

So even the kitchen, which is meant to be the domain of the Little Woman, conforms to the comfort of the average male?

 

[scifisam]

Well blow me down. I now realise that I’ve been complaining about this shit all my life but never really stopped to think it was about being an invisible woman.

I’m not really short but I have a little foot stool in my kitchen because I can’t read the top shelf, and I have to stand on tip toe to do anything that needs me lean in, lean down with my weight. I’ve always assumed “I’m too short” and suddenly finally I’m aware that it’s the default design that’s wrong.

So even the kitchen, which is meant to be the domain of the Little Woman, conforms to the comfort of the average male?

Yeah, because it's generally men designing and fitting the kitchens. When my kitchen was installed at my previous flat I saw the men standing there working out from their own heights where to place the upper wall-mounted cupboards so you can comfortably reach them, and I wasn't allowed to have them change it. They were all at least six inches taller than me so the cupboards were all six inches too high for me, and the worktops made me feel like a child trying to cook, and I'm average height for a woman.

So they were sort of being considerate by making sure the cupboards were reachable but they didn't consider who they were going to be accessed by, which, given not only women but children and older people (who are generationally shorter and also lose a little height in old age), is going to be on average noticeably shorter than young workmen.

I've often noticed that showerheads are placed too high for me too, though not my current one because I had installed myself and got in the bath to work out exactly where I wanted it.

 

[kabbes]

Drug testing was mentioned earlier. Actually, drugs and other therapies are still routinely tested on principally male populations (phase I and phase II), for various reasons that mostly come down to this visibility issue (or “markedness”), really. ISTR lots of painkillers come into this category. Also, lots of wider social science studies do too — the amount I see that have populations of about 25-33% women but whose results are imputed onto the whole population based on a simple test for dissimilarity. It’s definitely a known issue but doing anything about it is slow. (At least now, though, students are taught about the concept of external validity, which addresses precisely this).

Thalidomide, which was mentioned, is an interesting example because the problem there was specifically a lack of testing in pregnancy. But, of course, that’s still an assumption that a pregnant woman is just the same as a non-pregnant woman, which I can’t help feel comes from the same wheelhouse.

(There’s a similar problem that even phase III tests are generally carried out on the most well patients, often much younger than the typical sufferer, and then mostly given to the most unwell, who have been entirely excluded from the testing).

 

[dylanredefined]

Me too! And great topic for threat Dorothy

Can we start by sharing our best/worst encounters in a world made for men?

1. Kitchen cupboards and high shelves for me. I have cupboards and shelves in the kitchen for things we hardly ever use because it's such an arse for anyone apart from the big male person in our house to reach anything that's in them. All hail the steps we keep in the kitchen for when he's not around
2. Being cold in the office. Apparently there's an actual reason we women keep cardigans on the backs of our chairs.

Office temp is a known problem men are expected to wear suits and ties. While women should wear dresses. So the temp is never going to please everyone.

 

[Poot]

Office temp is a known problem men are expected to wear suits and ties. While women should wear dresses. So the temp is never going to please everyone.

But women feel the cold more - that's just a fact and it's just the way we're made. And most of us do dress for the temperature but having to wear 2 jumpers cos the aircon is on is just bonkers.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

On the whole kitchen height issue. I decided that my very home made kitchen would have no high presses at all. At 5ft 2inches it was going to be impossible to reach anything other than things on the lower part of a wall press si I ditched that completely.
I've only got the lower presses and worktop. And I stacked the 4 presses(2x2)that were meant to go on the wall...in order to make a set of low shelves sat on the floor at the other side of the room.