Europe - a mess to come

[brogdale]

I claim the A star for getting the thread in place well before the election, and while I was laughed at has meant the Urban thread on this isn't like CiF full of people irate with Cameron for standing in the way of democracy. I took on board some people were confused, so when a outside observer with WSJ condenses into 1 article, I did post it. How's Italy propping up Merkel working out for you?

We'll see....some way to go yet.

 

[butchersapron]

I claim the A star for getting the thread in place well before the election, and while I was laughed at, it has meant the Urban thread on this isn't like CiF full of people irate with Cameron for standing in the way of democracy. I took on board some people were confused, so when a outside observer with WSJ condenses into 1 article, I did post it. How's Italy propping up Merkel working out for you?

You got the mickey taken for your inability to put across what the issues actually are in simple language. This, rather than your prescience is why no one is attacking Cameron on this thread - because no one is posting on this thread really. To claim that someone else managing to do what you failed to is some sort of credit to you neatly mirrors a lot of the way the eu justifies itself btw.

I doubt the outcome of this is of any significance - the differences between unelected heads having less weight than the neo-liberal institutional structural and legislative imperatives written into the eu's structure. Long may the deadlock continue and deepen though - all the better to highlight that the mass of the eu never even knew the real election was taking place elsewhere and behind their backs. Democratic legitimacy - lovely stuff.

 

[gosub]

I'm quite happy with the post/view ratio on this thread. And as brogdale said, it has a way to go yet. It is easier to be succinct when you are being past-remarkable.

You are still the only person on my ignore list, why don't you just carry on playing on the multitude of threads where those wanting out of the EU have been described as ignorant and ill-informed.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm quite happy with the post/view ratio on this thread. And as brogdale said, it has a way to go yet. It is easier to be succinct when you are being past-remarkable.

You are still the only person on my ignore list, why don't you just carry on playing on the multitude of threads where those wanting out of the EU have been described as ignorant and ill-informed.

Ok, if you think this thread is an example of an ideal debate then fine. It looks me like you've priced everyone else out of the market by a mix of gobbledygook unexplained assumptions and a host of other informed debate killers.

I have no idea what that last para means - anyone?

 

[DairyQueen]

I think we do have a vision, but like Sweden it is shaped by being outside the EUro. I don't think the EUro is unpickable. If it isn't, then eventually chosing a Commision President the way the Parliament outlined is probably the best way forward. I think you have it backwards on Germany and ECB reform, if anything this neutralises the power of nation states, but the public didn't know that when it was voting and the campaigns they ran and the way most media covered it, certainly didn't make it clear.

Of course Germany wants to neutralise the power of the nation states. They want the euro to work, and some current thinking on this is that you have to have a common fiscal policy.

My point is more general, that the UK's reforms (alongside Sweden) will not provide a stable economic policy for the eurozone. If that continues to be the case, particularly if the UK introduces border controls with other EU countriies, it could well be that the eurozone moves in its own direction and does not seek the UK's partnership in its decision-making. So I might disagree with butchersapron when he says...

I doubt the outcome of this is of any significance - the differences between unelected heads having less weight than the neo-liberal institutional structural and legislative imperatives written into the eu's structure. Long may the deadlock continue and deepen though - all the better to highlight that the mass of the eu never even knew the real election was taking place elsewhere and behind their backs. Democratic legitimacy - lovely stuff.

... but based on my perception that Britain is one of the biggest obstacles to developing "truly" democratic institutions (or as democratic as they are here) across Europe.

 

[butchersapron]

Truly democratic in the eu or without the eu? Are you saying the Eu is capable of developing that way without GB? That GB continued membership stops such development?

 

[DairyQueen]

Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy. The EU is much more capable of doing that without GB, and GB is an obstacle to these types of reforms.

 

[butchersapron]

Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy. The EU is much more capable of doing that without GB, and GB is an obstacle to these types of reforms.

Wow. That's just a list of things. Most of them the EU has spent the last 20 years making sure can't happen.

Where the democratising force coming from DQ?

 

[DairyQueen]

Not a very big list (two things).

I was under the impression that Britain was, and still is, against increasing the powers of the European Parliament at the expense of the Council and its Commission (the undemocratic executive). And that generally 'federalists' and 'super-state' are coded words in the UK meaning we don't want reforms which may give the Parliament legitimacy.

Indeed, Cameron's posturing may be an attempt to undermine the Parliament even further.

 

[butchersapron]

Were you under the impression that you would get Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy if GB left? Really?

 

[DairyQueen]

Not at all. I am under the impression that the British Government is against increasing the democratic legitimacy of the European Union.

EDIT

 

[butchersapron]

Not at all. I am under the impression that Britain is against increasing the democratic legitimacy of the European Union.

And you think the EU is developing Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy. Just say yes, It's implied in your previous.

 

[agricola]

Not at all. I am under the impression that the British Government is against increasing the democratic legitimacy of the European Union.

Not really, unless you are conflating "democratic legtimacy" with "federalism".

 

[DairyQueen]

Just to be clear. What you are quoting was a direct response to your questions...

Truly democratic in the eu or without the eu? Are you saying the Eu is capable of developing that way without GB? That GB continued membership stops such development?

Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy. The EU is much more capable of doing that without GB, and GB is an obstacle to these types of reforms.

So, no I do not believe the EU is currently doing that. I do believe there is some appetite to do so within the EU, and a British exit would do no harm to those in the EU which argue for these types of reforms.

 

[butchersapron]

Just to be clear. What you are quoting was a direct response to your questions...





So, no I do not believe the EU is currently doing that. I do believe there is some appetite to do so within the EU, and a British exit would do no harm to those in the EU which argue for these types of reforms.

Whose appetite? Who? How many battalions?

 

[DairyQueen]

Whose appetite? Who? How many battalions?

This is getting silly. Even one of the main themes of the Lisbon Treaty concerns the relevance of the EU Parliament. Many European politicians want to see its powers enhanced at the expense of the unelected Commission and the unelected Council under the premise this increases the EU's democratic mandate. I am not sure if you are disputing that, or think this debate is just nonsense. Where powers lie and should lie in the EU is seen as a (perhaps the) major issue. Found this on a quick search on google, there are more articles.

In this context, I am not sure who agricola is referring to as 'federalists'. Those arguing for increased powers to the Parliament?

 

[butchersapron]

Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy.

wtf? Who is getting silly?

 

[DairyQueen]

It was just an example. You asked "Truly democratic in the eu or without the eu?", I said "Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy." They were just examples of the types of reforms that would be needed to give the EU democratic legitimacy but the British Government would oppose out of hand.

 

[butchersapron]

It was just an example. You asked "Truly democratic in the eu or without the eu?", I said "Democratic institutions in the EU; elected officials, proper integrated decision-making across different levels of government with some degree of legitimacy." They were just examples of the types of reforms that would be needed to give the EU democratic legitimacy but the British Government would oppose out of hand.

An example of what? Something that you would love to happen but isn't? That can't. That would happen without GB in the EU? We've just been through this.

 

[DairyQueen]

We've been through nothing. I thought you were asking for clarity, that you wanted me to clarify if a previous post was referring to reforms "in the eu or without the eu". I did that.

If what you are saying is simply that you believe these reforms that I cited are impossible with or without GB, fine - leave it at that.

 

[agricola]

This is getting silly. Even one of the main themes of the Lisbon Treaty concerns the relevance of the EU Parliament. Many European politicians want to see its powers enhanced at the expense of the unelected Commission and the unelected Council under the premise this increases the EU's democratic mandate. I am not sure if you are disputing that, or think this debate is just nonsense. Where powers lie and should lie in the EU is seen as a (perhaps the) major issue. Found this on a quick search on google, there are more articles.

In this context, I am not sure who agricola is referring to as 'federalists'. Those arguing for increased powers to the Parliament?

I didnt refer to anyone as "federalist" - I just pointed out that the UK is opposed to the EU becoming more federalist, rather than being opposed to the EU Parliament having increased "democratic legitimacy".

 

[DairyQueen]

I didnt refer to anyone as "federalist" - I just pointed out that the UK is opposed to the EU becoming more federalist, rather than being opposed to the EU Parliament having increased "democratic legitimacy".

Right, I read this more as the conflict between the Parliament and Council. That Britain believes power in the EU ultimately rests with the Council and not the Parliament.

 

[gosub]

I wouldn't call the council unelected per say, its the top of the political pile in each member state. That the EP are trying to do the same for the role of President of the Commission, doesn't really work they ran campigns that were based on dosmestic politics

 

[DairyQueen]

Could that argument not be applied to an MP elected on local issues?

 

[gosub]

Could that argument not be applied to an MP elected on local issues?

Yes, but we haven't had 326 MP's elected on "save our local hospital"vote so the queen hasn't had a problem

 

[butchersapron]

Clarity. Not oddness. Clarity.

 

[DairyQueen]

Who is that directed at?

 

[butchersapron]

Both of you i suppose.

 

[DairyQueen]

Thanks for the clarity.

 

[DairyQueen]

Yes, but we haven't had 326 MP's elected on "save our local hospital"vote so the queen hasn't had a problem

The gumpf that comes through my door suggests that all the main candidates want my vote based on how they will champion my constituency interests. What business do they have discussing national policy?