Europe - a mess to come

[brogdale]

I meant the Eurosceptic obsession with how terrible it is that commissioners are unelected is a load of hooey and misunderstands the function and role of the European Commission.

Yes they don't have a popular mandate and a good thing too. When you are appointed you don't have any real power, which lies with the EU council.

Leaving the electorate free to indulge in the political onanism of voting without creating a government.

 

[gosub]

Now in Guardian...



Spiegel turn Cameron's desperate attempt to worry Merkel into ditching Juncker into the tories morphing into super-UKIP. Laughable spin.

It not that spinny or desperate. The current tory position is stick with us for some vague reformist jam in the future. If in the meantime he gets bounced in to a Federal system for the Commission, with that other bit of Lisbon 'tidying' coming in November - EU majority rule. - the line will not hold.

Surprised the papers aren't picking up on this yet.

 

[brogdale]

It not that spinny or desperate. The current tory position is stick with us for some vague reformist jam in the future. If in the meantime he gets bounced in to a Federal system for the Commission, with that other bit of Lisbon 'tidying' coming in November - EU majority rule. - the line will not hold.

Surprised the papers aren't picking up on this yet.

It is fucking desperate if you ask me. His whole strategy to hold his own party's "coalition" together, and resist farage, is predicated upon being able to extract reform concessions from EUrope and then offer the referendum whilst supporting the stay-in campaign saying that all is now well with the beast. Threatening to flounce off 'cause they don't like the ref. is fucking desperate and hollow.

 

[gosub]

The current system of election is a fudge, but isn't supposed to be federal, the pan EU parties are trying to bounce us into one. If he can't stand up to it he's fucked and he is right to make that clear to the rest of the Council. He has quite a lot of battlefield to play on though. First thing he should do is tackle Milliband and get him to say whether the campaign labour just ran was authorised by Schultz. (can't have been). I suspect we are not the only country where MEP's were sent as a barometer on domestic politics. Can take the fight to both parliaments and see which affiliations are stronger pan Party or geographical

 

[gosub]

tbf when council is choosing president and president approving commission it's pretty bloody obvious that names are consequent on things. Renzi has much to gain from siding with Merkel at this juncture.

"Matteo Renzi, the Italian prime minister, spoke out in support of Britain on Sunday by emphasising that Mr Juncker had no guaranteed majority in a vote of EU leaders and had no automatic right to the job following last week's European elections. "Juncker is 'one' name for the Commission, but he is not 'the' name," he said, echoing Mr Cameron's argument that it is more important to focus on the political agenda of the commission rather than who should get which jobs." Telegraph

 

[gosub]

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place,
which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.
Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.
Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?
Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth? Europe.
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?
Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.
Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.
I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.
Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.
In the name of God, go! - Oliver Cromwell 1653

But there is no Lord Protector to either shut parliaments nor kick the UK out of the EU.


I remember the "tidying up exercise" when these rules were first introduced, CyberRose telling me that this subsidiarity would lead to more accountabilty. It clearly isn't. We have been poorly served at all levels. And whilst in the past UK politicians have obscurificated about the system we find ourselves in, the EUropean Parliament and the pan EUropean parties there in have got ahead of themselves in saying they are the will of the people. They are king's of the hill through horse trading, seeking to impose their top down vision without proper foundation.

It is complicated here in the UK by the EPP not being on the ballot paper, but of the 522 EU Parliamentarians huffing and puffing and saying they are the will of the people we did have some message, enough to swell their ranks by 20. An example of what got them their mandate :


Were Juncker to win this battle, we the public will be outside a political system that purely points fingers of blame in every other direction whilst safeguarding those inside live high on the hog in both National and EUropean Parliaments without being responsible. The political class of a whole continent engaged in ouroboros. Whilst we the public feel the consequences and pay for it all.

As both sides begin to rabble rouse for their principled positions, and it is not without precident that schisms of this magnatude turn violent. I would say the feeling among us, the great unwashed, ranges for underwhelmed indifference to fuck the lot of you. But then it probably did in 1914 and 1939 as well.

 

[SpineyNorman]

obscurificated?

 

[gosub]

obscurificated?

think hitch hikers guide to the galaxy and planning applications prominently displayed in a filing cabinet in a basement.

Whilst it is possible (just) to follow what is going on, the whole process is made as deliberately difficult to follow and understand as possible. And even then, in this case, the pan Euro parties have jumped the gun.


eta The last thing EUrope needs now is some self confessed liar and possible alcoholic brought to prominence through changing the rules as they go along.. If they do it will leave National leaders as powerless whipping boys the public face of an unaccountable system (in the name of accountability). All those in the European Council in favour say aye!

 

[gosub]

"members of the European People’s Party are not bound to support Juncker, because ‘less than 10 per cent of the electorate in any of the countries that the EPP are now saying they have the votes from actually knew they were voting for anybody at all, never mind Jean-Claude Juncker’." Spectator


eta messy way of doing it- Callanan failed his bid to win re-election in the 2014 European Parliament Elections, becoming the first ever sitting chairman of a European parliamentary group to lose his seat.

 

[gosub]

Televised debates
Date Time (CEST)Institute Participants Location Language
9 April 2014 17:10 France 24 and RFI[62]Juncker and Schulz Brussels French/English
28 April 2014 19:00 Euronews Juncker, Schulz, Verhofstadt,Keller Maastricht English
29 April 2014 14:30 Euranet Plus[64] Juncker, Schulz, Verhofstadt, Keller Brussels English
8 May 2014 20:15 ZDF and ORF Juncker and Schulz Berlin German
9 May 2014 18:30 EUI Juncker, Schulz, Verhofstadt, Bové Florence English
13 May 2014 18:30 LCI and RFI[65] Juncker and Schulz Paris French
15 May 2014 21:00 EBU Juncker, Schulz, Verhofstadt, Keller,Tsipras Brussels English
19 May 2014 23:01 France 2[66 ] Verhofstadt and Bové Paris French
20 May 2014 21:00 ARD Juncker and Schulz Hamburg German


where would you find ratings for these things?

 

[gosub]

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th...isions-on-the-institutions/86-article-17.html

"7. Taking into account the elections to the European Parliament and after having held the appropriate consultations, the European Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall propose to the European Parliament a candidate for President of the Commission. This candidate shall be elected by the European Parliament by a majority of its component members. If he does not obtain the required majority, the European Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall within one month propose a new candidate who shall be elected by the European Parliament following the same procedure."


it comes down to how you define "taking into account"

 

[gosub]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Monday she was pressing fellow EU leaders to back Jean-Claude Juncker for the post of European Commission president, but also noted it could be pushed through without the backing of all.

Speaking at a news conference with the visiting prime minister of Georgia, Merkel stressed that Juncker, former prime minister of Luxembourg, could be approved in the European Council, which groups all 28 EU leaders, with a "qualified majority". Reuters

 

[gosub]

good piece in the FT yesterday
Block Juncker to save real democracy in Europe

unfortunately paywalled and I sort of agree with the header you get if you c&p-
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Through a veil of cabbage the colour police viewed the erroneous helecopter with undisguised ketchup.

 

[brogdale]

Through a veil of cabbage the colour police viewed the erroneous helecopter with undisguised ketchup.

 

[gosub]

http://www.aecr.eu/media/AECRAMR-European-election-poll.pdf

 

[brogdale]

Dave merked.

Angela Merkel sought on Wednesday to defuse a worsening row with Britain over who should secure the most powerful job at the top of theEuropean Union.

But the German chancellor has pledged her full support for the former Luxembourg prime minister Jean-Claude Juncker to be the next head of the European commission in Brussels, despite vehement opposition from David Cameron.

Addressing parliament in Berlin, Merkel also appeared to confirm German press reports that the issue of the top commission post could propel Britain to exit the EU.

Merkel's tricky balancing act – keen to keep the UK as an EU ally while under mounting domestic pressure to throw her weight behind Juncker – came as she and Cameron met in Brussels on Wednesday evening for a G7 summit with the leaders of France, Italy, the US, Japan and Canada.

 

[tbtommyb]

In one sentence you say that talk about unelected Brussels bureaucrats is babble, in another you say that they have no popular mandate

Yes, obviously. They are unelected just as civil servants are unelected and have no popular mandate. The point of the Commission is to be the civil service of the EU. The Council sets out the direction. Obviously it's now a bit of a fudge as the Commission originates regulations, grandstanding by officials etc. Also the point of the Commission is to enforce the rules that the Member States signed up to, so it involves a bit of telling off. Just as the UK government sometimes gets pulled up about not doing things properly domestically.

The Commission officials all ultimately derive their power from the Council i.e. the elected leaders (or used to, at least). That's because the EU is still more or less an intergovernmental organisation. Once you start electing Commission officials they have a popular mandate and then you have a supranational organisation. The OP was just pointing out that the remedy eurosceptics give for the EU's 'democratic deficit' would actually send things in a direction eurosceptics aren't fond of.

Of course the whole thing is now a terrible muddle due to continued attempts to move things further towards the supranational side, the ECJ etc.

Worth remembering that everything the EU does gets cleared by member states in Council.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, obviously. They are unelected just as civil servants are unelected and have no popular mandate. The point of the Commission is to be the civil service of the EU. The Council sets out the direction. Obviously it's now a bit of a fudge as the Commission originates regulations, grandstanding by officials etc. Also the point of the Commission is to enforce the rules that the Member States signed up to, so it involves a bit of telling off. Just as the UK government sometimes gets pulled up about not doing things properly domestically.

The Commission officials all ultimately derive their power from the Council i.e. the elected leaders (or used to, at least). That's because the EU is still more or less an intergovernmental organisation. Once you start electing Commission officials they have a popular mandate and then you have a supranational organisation. The OP was just pointing out that the remedy eurosceptics give for the EU's 'democratic deficit' would actually send things in a direction eurosceptics aren't fond of.

Of course the whole thing is now a terrible muddle due to continued attempts to move things further towards the supranational side, the ECJ etc.

Worth remembering that everything the EU does gets cleared by member states in Council.

Not by us. We don't get to vote for the council do we? I wonder why.

 

[tbtommyb]

Not by us. We don't get to vote for the council do we? I wonder why.

The Council is made up of the 28 elected heads of government so indirectly you do. Whether you think Cameron is unelected depends more on your views on the British system of elections than the EU.

I wonder why

Because if we voted directly for a Council, that would be supranational, which the EU is not.

 

[butchersapron]

The Council is made up of the 28 elected heads of government so indirectly you do. Whether you think Cameron is unelected depends more on your views on the British system of elections than the EU.


Because if we voted directly for a Council, that would be supranational, which the EU is not.

I don't. I don't vote for the council. Directly or indirectly. I have no vote whatsoever in it.

No, it's because they would not like the results. So they tried to insulate themselves from democracy, from opinion.

 

[tbtommyb]

I don't. I don't vote for the council. Directly or indirectly. I have no vote whatsoever in it.

No, it's because they would not like the results. So they tried to insulate themselves from democracy, from opinion.

If you vote in a general election in any EU member state you're voting for one of the people on the Council.

So I am afraid I do not understand your argument that the Council membership is insulated from democracy, given that every one of them is elected. (apart from the president obvs, and the rest chose a nobody to keep that role weak).

 

[butchersapron]

If you vote in a general election in any EU member state you're voting for one of the people on the Council.

So I am afraid I do not understand your argument that the Council membership is insulated from democracy, given that every one of them is elected. (apart from the president obvs, and the rest chose a nobody to keep that role weak).

No you're not. You're voting for your constituency MP. Only people in the seat of the PM can vote for the person on the council - about 75 000 people in a country of near 70 million.

None of them are elected to the council either. You're damn right that you do not understand.

 

[tbtommyb]

No you're not. You're voting for your constituency MP. Only people in the seat of the PM can vote for the person on the council - about 75 000 people in a country of near 70 million.

None of them are elected to the council either. You're damn right that you do not understand.

So you're trying to argue that the Council is not elected based on a quirk of the UK system? What about all the countries that have direct presidential elections?

 

[J Ed]

Putting the indirect into indirect democracy...

 

[J Ed]

So you're trying to argue that the Council is not elected based on a quirk of the UK system? What about all the countries that have direct presidential elections?

Not just the UK though, is it?

 

[tbtommyb]

None of them are elected to the council either. You're damn right that you do not understand.

that only works if you take an obtuse definition. The First Lord of the Treasury is elected.

This is getting away from the broader point that having direct elections to the Council would change it from intergovernmental to supranational. But free to state whatever alternative assertion you prefer.

 

[butchersapron]

So you're trying to argue that the Council is not elected based on a quirk of the UK system? What about all the countries that have direct presidential elections?

yo
You're arguing that it's elected because the people on it are elected to another body. And yes, the objection that half the countries don't actually directly elect head of states kills your idea.

We both know damn well why we're not allowed vote on the council. Why it's not elected.

 

[tbtommyb]

yo
You're arguing that it's elected because the people on it are elected to another body. And yes, the objection that half the countries don't actually directly elect head of states kills your idea.

We both know damn well why we're not allowed vote on the council. Why it's not elected.

But in all of those countries it's constitutionally accepted that the head of government has a popular mandate.

You may disagree with that, of course.

e2a: also saying 'because the people on it are elected to another body' misses the point - the Council derives its power from them being elected to the other body.

 

[butchersapron]

that only works if you take an obtuse definition. The First Lord of the Treasury is elected.

This is getting away from the broader point that having direct elections to the Council would change it from intergovernmental to supranational. But free to state whatever alternative assertion you prefer.

No it doesn't. It means taking elected to mean elected. Obtuse would be arguing that an unelected body is elected because some of them were elected to something else. You have lost this one.

It doesn't matter whether the results of elections - or holding them - would mean that there were supranational initiatives going on - the point is that this is precisely how it was designed to allow no-democratic or participatory content. Saying it would be supra-national is how they manged to cut out hundreds of millions of people. You poor naive fool.