And many get so-called 3rd World diseases because of it. TB made a comeback in London as overcrowding surged.
Does the welfare system predispose people to unhappiness?
- Thread starter ViolentPanda
- Start date
I know. But still, it's a better system than welfare. In its absence, though, welfare is better than nothing.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
It's a cultural thing, isn't it? Mainstream culture seems to place a high value on being self-supporting and wealthy. In that context it is unsurprising that welfare claimants can feel stigmatised and therefore unhappy.
Okay. So, pulling a hypothetical case out of the air, a couple pressured to marry purely because one of them got pregnant, then if the woman decides she's had enough awards custody to the father by default, is better than a system which doesn't give a toss about marital status and awards custody (and maintenance) to whoever chooses to look after the child (as long as they're not deemed an unfit parent)? And a society which solves the problem of war widows by allowing polygamy is better, is it?
I'm taking a wild guess that he thinks he's keeping the debate going by playing devil's advocate.TB is better than welfare?
There's a job in the Cabinet just waiting for you, Phil.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
An important follow-up question might be:
Can anyone account for the observation that there are societies that have no concept of 'pizza' where people live happy and productive lives in conditions less favourable than our own?
What is it about pizza that makes people so unhappy?
Could it be that replacing peperoni with a love of family, God and intermittent lynchings would go some way towards ameliorating our shallow, mozzarella-riddled existences, once we have recovered from this demonic Stockholm Syndrome and learned to love the noose and the roar of the mob again?
Can anyone account for the observation that there are societies that have no concept of 'pizza' where people live happy and productive lives in conditions less favourable than our own?
What is it about pizza that makes people so unhappy?
Could it be that replacing peperoni with a love of family, God and intermittent lynchings would go some way towards ameliorating our shallow, mozzarella-riddled existences, once we have recovered from this demonic Stockholm Syndrome and learned to love the noose and the roar of the mob again?
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Surely housing somebody is a better option than having them live curled up between the shower and the toilet?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Shariah says a lot of things. If you're on the blob I hope you're posting from the shed.
So is giving the father custody by default, pressuring pregnant women to marry (once it's been established who the baby's father is, or at least isn't), and "providing for" war widows by marrying them off to a man who may already have 3 other wives.
Don't be daft, I'm not supporting the whole of shariah, I don't know enough for a start. I am saying that I think it's an interesting question that the love and support of family and community cannot just be replaced by social security.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
You and I would both be homeless under Sharia law (and I'd probably new dead), and our kids taken away from us and told that we were evil. They have charity for the righteous only.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
One of the five pillars is to give a percentage of your income to charity, yes.
The question is whether you think the State should be providing these basic necessities in the first place, or whether you think it falls to charities instead.
For example, personally speaking, I think absolutely nobody in the UK should be so poor they cannot afford to feed themselves adequately. I think if we're going to exist in a system with a State, then the State should provide adequately, through welfare or through bringing in legislation to ensure people are paid properly so they can feed themselves.
Our current Government believe people should turn to food banks and charity handouts instead and do not believe it's the State's responsibility to feed people. The consequence of this is that many, many people are going very, very hungry. Charity is evidently struggling to fill the gap that welfare is not meeting. I don't think that's right at all.
In the mind of the person allowing a friend or relative to sleep in the bathroom/shower room, the kitchen floor in the hall, or in a shed, the person sleeping like that is housed, given that they're not actually sleeping on the street.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I know..
I'm not sure anyone really believes it can, also social security is a form of community support. That it can lead to a trap where people can get to feel very disempowered is possibly a downside, but you don't need an impersonal system of benefits for people to use someone else's dependency to make themselves feel better - it wouldn't surprise me to if we found it happens more, and in more destructive forms, in families and communities than it does between benefit users and benefit providers.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Well it's a complex issue; of course money can't replace love and support, but money difficulties can be very isolating and insular. Poverty increases the chances of falling into crime, drug and alcohol difficulties etc.
There was a report recently that looked at the effect poverty has on children in terms of their place in their community and society. It's a pretty miserable read, not just because of how it cuts children out of society but also because of the lengths it forces parents to go to try and ensure their kids still feel a part of the group. Most of the research that looks at gang and gang culture shows that the marginalisation brought about through poverty is a major contributing factor to young people falling into gangs. Of course it isn't just poverty, because not all children in poverty join gangs, there are many other factors at play, but it is a factor.
Money is not the be all and end all, but it helps.
And why can't there be both?
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Oh sure, I wouldn't see a mate / relative on the street or owt. But I wouldn't see it as a permanent fix iyswim, I would like for them to be able to have a space to call their own at some point if you get me.
I doubt this, cos my Muslim mate who champions shariah was a single mum herself! (I will text her and check!!)
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
But who implements the law? Is it reasonable people? Not usually. You would have no freedom whatsoever in Saudi, but they believe they are living under Sharia Law. Are they interpreting it wrong? Are they practicing the 'wrong' Sharia? Who's 'Sharia' law is right, your mate's or Saudi's?
There are big, big problems when you start discussing religious law. Take Judaism; some liberal Jews believe laws about keeping kosher are not relevant to today because they were only written for population protection and modern life means we don't need to stick to it any more (for example, you're not meant to eat shellfish, which makes sense when you consider that when the Torah was written the Jews were desert dwelling people and the sea was ages away, any shellfish that arrived was probably rank and rotten and deadly. But now we have fridges to store shellfish, so we don't need to apply it the same way). The Orthodox believe we must absolutely stick to it and it is wrong to sway from the rules of Kosher. Which one is right?
No listen, I'm not saying that I believe we should live under shariah law (fuckin HELL some of my family would go nuts if they could hear me say that 
). I'm just saying, maybe there's something that could be learnt from that system, from their attitude towards charity and responsibility. I respect it, I think in many ways Muslim families get a lot more right. And I do wonder what role social security has had in undermining that (altho I know there are MANY other factors such as mobility that also undermine it).
). I'm just saying, maybe there's something that could be learnt from that system, from their attitude towards charity and responsibility. I respect it, I think in many ways Muslim families get a lot more right. And I do wonder what role social security has had in undermining that (altho I know there are MANY other factors such as mobility that also undermine it).This is what my mate says (and she really knows what she's on about):
"No.
Under Islamic law the marriage is sacred, divorce possible if cant reconcile, but better to.
If married, both have lots of rights which are similar and some which are diff. Rights remain even if estranged etc.
If divorced, man has right to his children if good person (my ex prime example) but she can keep them if he agrees. If she remarries children should be with dad. But look at my situation (ideal is not the norm). Lots of reasons to be with dad inc better stability, provision, protection and no risk of stepdad giving them a crack!
Single woman etc with or without kids is responsibility of state to provide for her if she doesn't want to make a living (no obligation on women to wrk)
Hth xx"
"No.
Under Islamic law the marriage is sacred, divorce possible if cant reconcile, but better to.
If married, both have lots of rights which are similar and some which are diff. Rights remain even if estranged etc.
If divorced, man has right to his children if good person (my ex prime example) but she can keep them if he agrees. If she remarries children should be with dad. But look at my situation (ideal is not the norm). Lots of reasons to be with dad inc better stability, provision, protection and no risk of stepdad giving them a crack!
Single woman etc with or without kids is responsibility of state to provide for her if she doesn't want to make a living (no obligation on women to wrk)
Hth xx"
Also:
"It's better to explain fully with emphasis on Islamic basics. If you are fighting against feminists they will be outraged lol, but don't forget men and women have different advantages, roles etc and both are equal (altho men a degree greater as the protectors and maintainers of women) but different"
"It's better to explain fully with emphasis on Islamic basics. If you are fighting against feminists they will be outraged lol, but don't forget men and women have different advantages, roles etc and both are equal (altho men a degree greater as the protectors and maintainers of women) but different"
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
No listen, I'm not saying that I believe we should live under shariah law (fuckin HELL some of my family would go nuts if they could hear me say that
Well most major religions share the same or similar views on respect and charity and helping people out. It's not Islamic specific by any means.
And again, why can't there be both? Why does having a welfare system need to remove the importance of community and family support? It's both that usually provides the most positive outcomes, not one or the other.
Sod that - FYI the same view was traditionally taken by a lot of Christians. It didn't prevent wifebeating or other types of abuse.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
Edie, you and I, and all other female urbs, would be in huge trouble under sharia law. It's not just being a single mum. Hell, under sharia law half the men on here would be in trouble - it's just that we'd be first.
So the woman can keep the kids if he agrees? But if she remarries, she forfeits the kids? No mention of what's best for the children. And all about money, as if getting kids up for school on time, talking to them and hugging them are all about who has the most money.
So the woman can keep the kids if he agrees? But if she remarries, she forfeits the kids? No mention of what's best for the children. And all about money, as if getting kids up for school on time, talking to them and hugging them are all about who has the most money.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
at the idea that people are happier having to rely on 'charity' (which involves aspects such as whether the charity has got any food / money left by the time that person gets there and whether the charity thinks someone is 'deserving poor' or not - which may include value being given to religious observance or following what that charity considers an 'acceptable lifestyle') rather than entitlement to benefits...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm not sure how many Islamic societies have local authority regulations that mean that tenants can be sanctioned if they deliberately "overcrowd" their dwellings, whereas here...
Her texts seem to support your pov, I was wrong!
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