Do you now support military action against Syria's government?

[bi0boy]

the Syrian Arab Army are slowly but surely winning the war , the only way they can conceivably lose is through direct western military intervention . The only thing that can trigger that is them using chemical weapons, a weapon they plainly do not need to use particularly against a few remaining pockets of jihadists in suburbs theyve largely retaken by purely conventional means . Futhermore they are heavily dependent upon military , financial and diplomatic support from Russia whove expended a massive effort on the diplomatic front forcing the UN to come and investigate rebel use of chemical weapons .

Yet on the very eve of Russias diplomatic triumph its being claimed the Syrians not only committed a tactically suicidal move but stabbed their major ally in the back in the process, humiliated and betrayed Putin and his envoys who put their proffessional reputations on the line . And just for the hell of it too apparently for absolutely no conceivable tactical gain against some non entity rebel pockets that easily can be smashed with conventional artillery, aircraft and tanks .

The jihadists meanwhile are slowly but surely losing, split down the middle, killing each other . Being cleared from town after town in a methodical fashion . The only conceivable way they can win is with direct western military intervention . The only way that can happen is if the Syrian Arab army uses chemical weapons .

apply the most basic logic to this scenario for christs sake .

You could make a similar speech about motives for 9/11 being an inside job - how about looking at actual evidence?

 

[white rabbit]

I don't think it's really fascism. Genocides have happened and strictly speaking fascism has not been involved. The British empire and the early American state were not fascist.

It would be too much of a stretch and probably ahistorical to describe those states in that way. And yet, fascism has become so tainted by the experience of last century, we can lose sight of how closely aligned to those notions we were. Racism and social hierarchies that we'd certainly put within the same spectrum were not alien to our ways of thought at all. It's just that we have all been so horrified by the Holocaust that we want to put as much ideological space between us and them as possible. Not only are we not now, but we never were nor ever could be.

 

[Casually Red]

You could make a similar speech about motives for 9/11 being an inside job - how about looking at actual evidence?

what evidence ?

the secret western intelligence reports that are being used as evidential justification for war which they refuse to bring to the UN security council for inspection or the evidence collected under rebel sniper fire by the UN inspectors, which the pro war lobby have made abundantly clear they havent the slightest bit of interest in because they will go to war regardless .

And i didnt make a speech, I outlined a factual scenario which indicates how plainly and self evidently self defeating it is for the Syrians to use those weapons . And how utterly illogical such a decision would be . Its got fuck all to do with 9 11 so no deliberate red herrings please .

 

[frogwoman]

It would be too much of a stretch and probably ahistorical to describe those states in that way. And yet, fascism has become so tainted by the experience of last century, we can lose sight of how closely aligned to those notions we were. Racism and social hierarchies that we'd certainly put within the same spectrum were not alien to our ways of thought at all. It's just that we have all been so horrified by the Holocaust that we want to put as much ideological space between us and them as possible. Not only are we not now, but we never were nor ever could be.

yes.

in the 1930s an increasing number of states, Poland for example were were introducing anti-semitic policies (though not, perhaps as extreme as what the Nazis were doing pre 1939) and probably almost all states had some sort of formalised anti-gypsy policy and of course i'd have thought pretty much all had legislation against homosexuality on the books. and of course while the murder of the mentally ill was carried out by the nazis as a state policy "voluntary" sterilisation was a popular idea and for decades afterwards the german government actually refused to give people affected by this programme compensation.

the "democratic" state has also committted terrible crimes and the threat of fascism is not something that's alien to capitalism however "democratic"

 

[Casually Red]

Aside from whether they've been used why is it important if it is given theyve already killed 100,00 people by conventional means?

really..everyone whos died in the syrian war has been killed by the Syrian army ?

If I was in al qaeda over there Id be going oi ...facking America and Saudi Arabia..all these facking tonnes of guns and rockets and stuff youve been giving us are complete pony . We havent killed a single person in the last 2 years with this rubbish . We might have to start resorting to cutting peoples heads off with knives if this keeps up.

 

[Casually Red]

yes.

in the 1930s an increasing number of states, Poland for example were were introducing anti-semitic policies (though not, perhaps as extreme as what the Nazis were doing pre 1939) and probably almost all states had some sort of formalised anti-gypsy policy and of course i'd have thought pretty much all had legislation against homosexuality on the books. and of course while the murder of the mentally ill was carried out by the nazis as a state policy "voluntary" sterilisation was a popular idea and for decades afterwards the german government actually refused to give people affected by this programme compensation.

the "democratic" state has also committted terrible crimes and the threat of fascism is not something that's alien to capitalism however "democratic"

the Iraq sanction regime was genocidal . Its sole intent was to destroy the Iraqi way of life and actually degrade the civilian population, to physically weaken them as a race of people by denying them the basics of every day life for many years. To barbarise them. And when they were sufficiently weakened , when an entire genration of young men of military age had grown up in that demoralised state thats when they went in after them to finish them off . Lemkins definition of genocide is what needs to be taken on board as well as the body count .

 

[Casually Red]

What about the Tornados in Gulf War 1? And the Turkish Phantom last year?

and that invisible stealth thing in serbia

 

[Pickman's model]

yes.

in the 1930s an increasing number of states, Poland for example were were introducing anti-semitic policies (though not, perhaps as extreme as what the Nazis were doing pre 1939) and probably almost all states had some sort of formalised anti-gypsy policy and of course i'd have thought pretty much all had legislation against homosexuality on the books. and of course while the murder of the mentally ill was carried out by the nazis as a state policy "voluntary" sterilisation was a popular idea and for decades afterwards the german government actually refused to give people affected by this programme compensation.

the "democratic" state has also committted terrible crimes and the threat of fascism is not something that's alien to capitalism however "democratic"

tbh i find it hard to believe that japan had any sort of anti-gypsy policy in the 1930s. or that ecuador, bhutan, tibet, persia or siam had spent any time on gypsies and policies against them.

 

[Pickman's model]

What about the Tornados in Gulf War 1? And the Turkish Phantom last year?

never mind a turkish phantom, what about the green ghost fenians deployed in england in the 1880s?

 

[frogwoman]

tbh i find it hard to believe that japan had any sort of anti-gypsy policy in the 1930s. or that ecuador, bhutan, tibet, persia or siam had spent any time on gypsies and policies against them.

sorry i meant european states.

the point is tho, that you dont have to be a fascist to commit genocide, or come close to committing it

 

[Casually Red]

also from the very outset of this gas thing the syrian army have been claiming that some of their own troops as well as Hezbollah fighters accompanying them in those districts have suffered the effects of gas inhalation after going into Rebel tunnels . Thats not being reported in the west because the Syrian army are the baddies, and the rebels are the goodies . Simple as fucking that .

 

[youngian]

also from the very outset of this gas thing the syrian army have been claiming that some of their own troops as well as Hezbollah fighters accompanying them in those districts have suffered the effects of gas inhalation after going into Rebel tunnels . Thats not being reported in the west because the Syrian army are the baddies, and the rebels are the goodies . Simple as fucking that .

Any links on that story?

 

[Pickman's model]

sorry i meant european states.

the point is tho, that you dont have to be a fascist to commit genocide, or come close to committing it

yeh i said that above.

 

[Pickman's model]

also from the very outset of this gas thing the syrian army have been claiming that some of their own troops as well as Hezbollah fighters accompanying them in those districts have suffered the effects of gas inhalation after going into Rebel tunnels . Thats not being reported in the west because the Syrian army are the baddies, and the rebels are the goodies . Simple as fucking that .

yeh it would be frankly surprising if the rebels had not tried or succeeded to obtain weapons the government has.

 

[weltweit]

Kerry said, late last week, that they had evidence of rockets being fired from regime held areas into rebel held areas, and evidence of sarin residues on people from the affected areas. That sounds pretty specific on the evidence front.

 

[Pickman's model]

Kerry said, late last week, that they had evidence of rockets being fired from regime held areas into rebel held areas, and evidence of sarin residues on people from the affected areas. That sounds pretty specific on the evidence front.

 

[ska invita]

Kerry said, late last week, that they had evidence of rockets being fired from regime held areas into rebel held areas, and evidence of sarin residues on people from the affected areas. That sounds pretty specific on the evidence front.

Even if those two facts are true it doesnt sound specific at all, in fact it sounds incredibly vague.

For what its worth, the grade of sarin used doesnt appear to be military grade (so not matching Assad's stockpiles) and firing from one place at another in a way designed to provoke a US response is far from improbable, and is in fact likely by a rebel force losing a war.

 

[Casually Red]

Any links on that story?

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Le...o-chemical-agents-in-syria.ashx#axzz2dA4auUSe

http://tribune.com.pk/story/596631/syria-envoy-says-soldiers-gassed-in-new-incidents/

This is the despicable thing about western reporting of this . One would almost think it was Syria bowing to external pressure to permit these inspectors in, when its been syria and Russia forcing the issue to get them in for over a year . And when they are finally there Syrian troops are allegedly gassed, Syria demands they investigate it . UN inspectors refuse and fuck off sharpish .

 

[agricola]

Kerry said, late last week, that they had evidence of rockets being fired from regime held areas into rebel held areas, and evidence of sarin residues on people from the affected areas. That sounds pretty specific on the evidence front.

It does, but Assad has been firing rockets - and tube artillery - into the rebel-held neighbourhoods for ages. It is also perhaps significant that, amongst all the things he claimed "we know", he didnt actually state that "we know" that the rockets had chemical warheads, just when and where they were launched and when and where they landed.

 

[Casually Red]

Kerry said, late last week, that they had evidence of rockets being fired from regime held areas into rebel held areas, and evidence of sarin residues on people from the affected areas. That sounds pretty specific on the evidence front.

so, your in a lift with a bunch of people who really dont like you and want you sacked . Someone lets slip with a silent and deadly fart, everybody looks at you and blames you. Why is it me you cry..what evidence do you have .
Well..its common knowlege you have an arsehole . And all the other guys have never done a fart in their lives, and never would .
Thats how specific the evidence is .

 

[elbows]

This is the despicable thing about western reporting of this . One would almost think it was Syria bowing to external pressure to permit these inspectors in, when its been syria and Russia forcing the issue to get them in for over a year .

Are you sure its over a year? The area where Russia & Syria made most noise in favour of an investigation was Khan al-Assal, and the attack there happened in March. Its also hard to ascertain when exactly they started calling on the UN to investigate, since Google search results are very heavily skewed towards the latest news. I'm still searching. So far I've got a story from early July where Russia said it had handed evidence over to the UN:

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=60010

It is certainly true that Russian and Syrian news has been moaning a lot recently about various attempts to delay the UN inspection of that area. This includes stories about the rebels killing loads of people in the area in July, and taking over the territory, complicating UN access to the area. However, other complaints in these articles that the UN inspectors were encouraged by the west to seek access to other areas, and that this was simply a dastardly plot to stall UN inspections, cannot simply be taken at face value. There could be truth to it, but it could also well have been that the Syrian regime didn't want to grant access to other sites of alleged attacks that were actually quite reasonable requests.

Having said all that, I am somewhat suspicious about some of the timing of things in recent weeks, as per my post earlier today, and as yet I've found no evidence that the UN team did manage to do the work they were originally going to do in Syria before the Damascus attacks took place and changed the agenda.

 

[Pickman's model]

It does, but Assad has been firing rockets - and tube artillery - into the rebel-held neighbourhoods for ages. It is also perhaps significant that, amongst all the things he claimed "we know", he didnt actually state that "we know" that the rockets had chemical warheads, just when and where they were launched and when and where they landed.

tube artillery? do you mean common or garden howitzers and the like?

 

[Casually Red]

Having said all that, I am somewhat suspicious about some of the timing of things in recent weeks, as per my post earlier today, and as yet I've found no evidence that the UN team did manage to do the work they were originally going to do in Syria before the Damascus attacks took place and changed the agenda.

its not just the timing, its doing it at all . Leaving all morality aside its completely self defeating . To get rid of a few hundred jihadis who they can take out with conventional weaponry, which theyve absolutely no shortage of ,they do the very thing that guarantees a western military response and can tip the entire conflict in the jihadis favour . Theyre in no danger of losing damascus or being beaten..theres absolutely no military , political or strategical logic to it . The timing just adds to the ridiculousness of it all .

They knew Qusair was a strategic necessity, they also knew it was going to be a pre prepared rabbit warren of jihadis booby trapped to the gills , tunnels and snipers everywhere and theyd take bad losses . Also virtually no civilians as theyd all legged it . But no chemical weapons used there .
Similarly just a few weeks ago rebels make incursions into Latakia , Alawite heartland . Absolutely essential they be routed . And routed they were, again no chemical weapons used .
But all of a sudden a couple of pockets of jihadis somehow become so strategically important theyre going to do something that presents an immediate existential threat to the syrian state ..at the worst possible time...not a chance . Theres absolutely no logic to it , no strategy only apparent self destruction when things are finally going their way .

Not just the timing, the tactic in itself is just ridiculous .

 

[Casually Red]

tube artillery? do you mean common or garden howitzers and the like?

katyusha rockets

 

[Quartz]

A right-wing comment on the West's inaction, not just on Syria:

http://chizumatic.mee.nu/threats_bluffs_and_red_lines

This country earned a reputation for gutlessness in the 1990's, beginning with Operation Desert Storm. The Iraqi's got their butts kicked but we didn't finish the job. The job should have ended with Saddam being deposed, except that Bush got negotiated into ending the campaign once Kuwait was liberated. (It was the price for allied participation and UN approval.)

...

And when Obama frowns at anyone these days, and draws a red line, all they do is laugh at him. His bluffing (for that's what it's been) has led to America now having the same reputation as Europe, and because of it he has increased the chance of nuclear weapons being used in future. The Iranian government has every intention of continuing their program to make and use nuclear weapons, and now when Obama says "We won't accept that" they think, "So, what you gonna do about it, fella?"

The number 1 rule of diplomacy is, Never make a threat unless you're willing to follow through on it. This is a rule Obama has violated many times, and now we're paying the price.

 

[agricola]

tube artillery? do you mean common or garden howitzers and the like?

Yes, but also mortars.

 

[Pickman's model]

katyusha rockets

yes, i understood what agricola meant by rockets and was asking what he meant by tube artillery.

 

[Casually Red]

A right-wing comment on the West's inaction, not just on Syria:

http://chizumatic.mee.nu/threats_bluffs_and_red_lines

never mentioned Vietnam once, or Lebanon . Or the fact that all their military engagements whether in Iraq or Afghanistan have ended in disaster . In short theres other reasons why people dont fear them as much as theyd like to think they should .

Written by a prick .

 

[elbows]

A right-wing comment on the West's inaction, not just on Syria:

http://chizumatic.mee.nu/threats_bluffs_and_red_lines

On a similar note there are certainly some in Israel who are using the red line flip-flopping over Syria as evidence that Israel can't leave the threat of a nuclear Iran to the US to deal with, questioning their commitment etc.

 

[Casually Red]

On a similar note there are certainly some in Israel who are using the red line flip-flopping over Syria as evidence that Israel can't leave the threat of a nuclear Iran to the US to deal with, questioning their commitment etc.

the zionist entity didnt get too far with the lightly armed Hezbollah militia and ended up with a number of inglorious retreats following its invasions of tiny powerless lebanon . Theyll get absolutely nowhere in Iran either .