goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
I think it was Diesel or Teufelhund who used to trot that out before the invasion of Iraq.
Do you now support military action against Syria's government?
- Thread starter Diamond
- Start date
I think it was Diesel or Teufelhund who used to trot that out before the invasion of Iraq.
I have heard people suggest this from time to time. They're half joking but seemingly unaware of the fascism that bolsters the whole idea. Perhaps they're not unaware, just complacently in agreement with fascist ideology. They do know that it's very unpleasant, at least.
Pingu
Credo
Yeah, it is.
I suppose I'm in danger of disappearing into semantics, but I associate fascism with militarist, hierarchical, authoritarianism with the inclusion of socially conservative ideas. I think you pretty much have to have these things in place to pursue a genocidal programme.
Pingu
Credo
tbh I think having a desire to wipe out a large number of people just because you can has very little to do with any political leanings of any direction. you cant really apply a personal interpretation of a definition and turn it into "They're half joking but seemingly unaware of the fascism that bolsters the whole idea. Perhaps they're not unaware, just complacently in agreement with fascist ideology"
We all have bad days.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
no it sounds much more like a bunch of jihadists using chemical weapons to defend against a large army operation aimed at clearing them from their few last remaining rat holes around Damascus. A crazed act of desperation by madmen. The Syrian army, particularly in Damascus plainly arent in a desperate situation , their opponents on the ground, whove been caught red handed with chemical weapons in Turkey and whove been accused by UN agencies on other occasions of using them , most certainly are in a desperate situation .
nope, thats most commentary aimed at western consumption . There are many parts of the globe and particularly Syria who arent buying it at all . The alternative commentary simply isnt being covered in western media outlets . And thats because the west and some of its Arab clients want military intervention in syria and dont want any pesky off message commentary disturbing the narrative of a just war .
Pingu
Credo
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
US and UK interference in Syria began after WWII. The CIA sponsored the 1949 coup. This is in cartoon form.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ged_the_country_into_decades_of_turmoil_.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ged_the_country_into_decades_of_turmoil_.html
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
just for the sake of accuracy it has to be remembered that it was Assad who had actually invited the inspectors in repeatedly for around a year to investigate previous chemical attacks his government insist the jihadists carried out, it was the UN who refused to come . The UN refusal to send inspectors was based on a mealy mouthed excuse that Assad wasnt permitting the same sort of open ended free roaming mandate they had in Iraq, which would entitle them to wander in unannounced to the Presidents bedroom if they saw fit and have a rummage through the wifes knicker drawer if they wanted . The preconditions the UN set were deliberately unacceptable to avoid going there in the first place . Russia basically shamed them into it by battering down their door in a diplomatic sense and having their own experts deliver samples to the UN .
So after a year of Assad insisting they come and investigate rebel use of chemical weapons and intense Russian diplomatic pressure insisting they go, the very day they arrive theres an apparent chemical massacre laid on for them not 20 minutes from their hotel .
ska invita
back on the other side
agree: when you're busy spying on the whole world, sinking your country into debt and engaged in multiple wars in the middle east there's bound to be some overlap.
I think you can. The militarist, authoritarian, social conservative nexus is a reasonable enough definition of fascism and genocide pretty much has to come out of that sort of environment. A more socially inclusive authoritarian regime for example undermines that inclusivity if it starts wiping people out wholesale.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Even the BBC had to initially mention that the timing of the attack was a bit odd.
It would be interesting to know if the UN team didn't visit the locations they originally planned to due to the fresh attack. And the other day it was being reported that they were 'leaving early' due to the impending military action that then failed to happen.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
thats what i love about this board. Refer to females as girls and your worse than Hitler . Casually discuss how youd like to see genocidal acts carried out on entire ethnic groups such as Arabs or Argentinians, or openly justify little murders such as drone and missile strikes on brown skinned goat herders and their families and your a bit of a card..more tea vicar .
The sense of moral outrage that dictates you can openly defend and justify the mass killings of innocent pakistanis and Arabs...but howls of outrage if you called them pakis or towel heads. Massacre and invade them if you must but please refrain from using a term that actually offends western liberal sensibilities .
Pingu
Credo
so no large scale socialist genocides then?
Pingu
Credo
bloody hell... I agree with a CR post...
genocide has fuck all to do with political leanings.
for the record I am not pro genocide... pro speciesicide maybe though
but this is going widely O/T
What do you have in mind, Cambodia? I don't recognise many socialist principles being enacted in the killing fields.
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teqniq
DisMembered
I agree and there are certainly lots of other factors in play, it was the timing I was thinking was rather convenient.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Well, if we're to understand 'socialist' in Stalinist terms at least, which isn't totally invalid. And we'd have to determine what actually constituted genocide. Also, fascism (which has been used to erroneously describe the CPK) is meaningless given the context.
Are we talking about violence towards non-Khmer minority groups or Khmer Buddhist monks? Or party cadres and ordinary peasants caught up in the bloody intra-party power struggle and regional purges among the Communists?
Mind you, there are those who don't believe it was genocide at all, although disagreements aren't in a similar vein to Holocaust denial, for example, but simply that while it's acknowledged that mass killing (among other things) certainly went on, it shouldn't be defined as such, and if it's going to be narrowly and legally defined, as the UN does.
It's been described as such, but that refers to Ukraine specifically. Many Russians also suffered as a result of the upheaval caused by collectivisation and food-requisitioning. There was mass starvation in other parts of the Soviet Union including Central Asia too, among the Kazakhs, but we don't hear about that so much.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
the rebels have been caught red handed with them in Turkey, prophetic report there from months back
and then there was this
According to UN diplomat Carla del Ponte, however, it appears that the recent chemical weapons attack, in April, was carried out by the Syrian rebels and not the regime, as it had been widely assumed. Speaking to a Swiss television channel, del Ponte said that there were “strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof,” that rebels had carried out the attack. She also said UN investigators had seen no evidence of the Syrian army using chemical weapons, but that further investigation was needed.
http://guardianlv.com/2013/08/syrian-chemical-weapons-attack-carried-out-by-rebels-says-un/
Furthermore Libya most certainly had a chemical weapons programme for many years . While it was put on hold and mothballed and the active stuff destroyed all the components and equipment necessary were still there when the jihadists overran the place after NATO bombed the state out of existence . The labs and the rockets are clearly visible in at least one video of a bombed bunker site overrun in the Nafusa mountains aired by Al Jazeera a few years ago, ill try and find it. And its Libyan gear that has been largely fuelling the jihadists in Syria .
it may sound like special pleading, but I wouldn't understand it in those terms. However, in the context of the "glass desert solution" remark, I think the reference to fascism is quite appropriate.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Cop out.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
good to see you back, i was wondering only the other day how you were. should go back to 'space travel's in my blood' as your tagline though.
We're drifting off topic, I know, but genocide can be overused. No one has actually wiped out a genus but if we take it as the attempt rather than merely causing massive death, it does carry the tinge of racial hygiene.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
the Syrian Arab Army are slowly but surely winning the war , the only way they can conceivably lose is through direct western military intervention . The only thing that can trigger that is them using chemical weapons, a weapon they plainly do not need to use particularly against a few remaining pockets of jihadists in suburbs theyve largely retaken by purely conventional means . Futhermore they are heavily dependent upon military , financial and diplomatic support from Russia whove expended a massive effort on the diplomatic front forcing the UN to come and investigate rebel use of chemical weapons .
Yet on the very eve of Russias diplomatic triumph its being claimed the Syrians not only committed a tactically suicidal move but stabbed their major ally in the back in the process, humiliated and betrayed Putin and his envoys who put their proffessional reputations on the line . And just for the hell of it too apparently for absolutely no conceivable tactical gain against some non entity rebel pockets that easily can be smashed with conventional artillery, aircraft and tanks .
The jihadists meanwhile are slowly but surely losing, split down the middle, killing each other . Being cleared from town after town in a methodical fashion . The only conceivable way they can win is with direct western military intervention . The only way that can happen is if the Syrian Arab army uses chemical weapons .
apply the most basic logic to this scenario for christs sake .
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