Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[A380]

.... btw in a vegan future this problem would not arise in the first place because we would not be breeding obligate carnivores.

So kno kitehs? I can haz kno future?

 

[Spymaster]

How do vegans feel about animals being used to grow organs for humans?

Surely if it has the potential to save human lives then this is something that needs to be thoroughly explored?

Animals that grow designer organs for humans are a step closer

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How do vegans feel about animals being used to grow organs for humans?

Surely if it has the potential to save human lives then this is something that needs to be thoroughly explored?

Animals that grow designer organs for humans are a step closer

Sidestepping that issue, this is an issue that I think is often poorly addressed.

There are also ethical issues. Because the technique would involve inserting human cells into pig embryos, the adult animals could have some human brain cells. Does that mean we should give those pigs greater moral consideration? Ethicists will need to tackle such issues as research into such human-pig chimeras continues, says Bernhard Hering at the University of Minnesota. “We are crossing a crucial line here. But exciting papers always come with new questions.”

There is often what amounts to magical thinking over this kind of issue, as if 'human cells' were somehow sprinkled with human soul-dust.

 

[Spymaster]

Sidestepping that issue, this is an issue that I think is often poorly addressed.



There is often what amounts to magical thinking over this kind of issue, as if 'human cells' were somehow sprinkled with human soul-dust.

So the answer to the question posed in the second sentence is 'no, of course not'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So the answer to the question posed in the second sentence is 'no, of course not'?

Yes. My spunk contains millions of human cells. That doesn't mean it should be given a moral consideration.

If those 'human brain cells' gave the pig different cognitive abilities, then they would become relevant.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes. My spunk contains millions of human cells. That doesn't mean it should be given a moral consideration.

If those 'human brain cells' gave the pig different cognitive abilities, then they would become relevant.

Right. But I get that animal testing for cosmetics would upset people but this research has the potential to provide an unlimited supply of human hearts, lungs, etc ..

How can anyone be against that?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Right. But I get that animal testing for cosmetics would upset people but this research has the potential to provide an unlimited supply of human hearts, lungs, etc ..

How can anyone be against that?

Certainly seems more valuable than growing pigs for bacon.

I don't have an easy answer wrt vivisection, other than that it should definitely be avoided where there are alternatives, which there often are. But it can't be denied that various human life-saving advances have been made with experiments on animals, and it's pretty hard to say to someone directly involved 'I don't think that thing that saved your life should have been done'.

 

[Spymaster]

It's probably a discussion for a different thread, tbf.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's probably a discussion for a different thread, tbf.

Not sure it is. I'd be interested to hear answers from various people on this thread.

 

[Athos]

Certainly seems more valuable than growing pigs for bacon.

I don't have an easy answer wrt vivisection, other than that it should definitely be avoided where there are alternatives, which there often are. But it can't be denied that various human life-saving advances have been made with experiments on animals, and it's pretty hard to say to someone directly involved 'I don't think that thing that saved your life should have been done'.

How many pig's lives equal one human life?

 

[tonysingh]

How many pig's lives equal one human life?

27

 

[PaoloSanchez]

How do vegans feel about animals being used to grow organs for humans?

Surely if it has the potential to save human lives then this is something that needs to be thoroughly explored?

My opinion isn't representative of all vegans, there's not one big amorphous vegan blob that has the same views on every conceivable situation and hypothetical scenario.

Using animals to grow organs is not something that I am overly concerned about and I consider very low on the priority list and shouldn't be necessary. There are other low hanging fruit that would save far more human lives and massively reduce the need for organ replacement in the first place, especially given that lifestyle is the major cause of organ failure. It's not as if we don't know how to look after our organs, we just can't really be arsed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

My opinion isn't representative of all vegans, there's not one big amorphous vegan blob that has the same views on every conceivable situation and hypothetical scenario.

Using animals to grow organs is not something that I am overly concerned about and I consider very low on the priority list and shouldn't be necessary. There are other low hanging fruit that would save far more human lives and massively reduce the need for organ replacement in the first place, especially given that lifestyle is the major cause of organ failure. It's not as if we don't know how to look after our organs, we just can't really be arsed.

Can you put some numbers on that? Reason for needing a transplant and way that person could have avoided that need?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Can you put some numbers on that? Reason for needing a transplant and way that person could have avoided that need?

Not really, as I said, it's not something I'm overly concerned with. If it is something that interests you and you think you can find evidence/numbers that demonstrate the opposite is true, then go ahead.

It is well known that the leading causes of premature death and chronic illness are preventable, so to me it makes more sense to prioritise preventative measures.

 

[veganomics]

lol, and they complained about the use of the word "carnist", lol. I think the "hit and run" introduction of that word to the thread was yet another rather lame attempt to smear. Some people are really scraping the barrel. I first heard orthorexia used in that heavily biased god awful BBC documentary last year...
View attachment 113363
Attempting to associate vegans with eating disorders or even worse, claim that veganism itself is some kind of eating disorder is below the belt and dishonest.

I happened to watch that last year and agree, it was a terribly one sided stitch up. Some of the people who appeared on it have posted reaction videos on youtube.

 

[veganomics]

I can't keep up with all the posts. I only managed to get up to page 57 I will have to catch up later sometime. Anyway it's all good stuff (even the bad posts) and it's nice to see the subject getting plenty of air time.

Regarding the often expressed view that it was eating meat that made our brains so big and wonderful, here is an excellent examination of that theory and some other talking points by Kerry McCarthy

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I can't keep up with all the posts. I only managed to get up to page 57 I will have to catch up later sometime. Anyway it's all good stuff (even the bad posts) and it's nice to see the subject getting plenty of air time.

Regarding the often expressed view that it was eating meat that made our brains so big and wonderful, here is an excellent examination of that theory and some other talking points by Kerry McCarthy

Good intelligent stuff. I like the bit at the end...
"The vegan revolution is a cultural revolution, it's not something we're going to leave to politicians, educators and scientists. This is a battle we can fight and win in our own homes with our own knives and forks".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not really, as I said, it's not something I'm overly concerned with. If it is something that interests you and you think you can find evidence/numbers that demonstrate the opposite is true, then go ahead.

It is well known that the leading causes of premature death and chronic illness are preventable, so to me it makes more sense to prioritise preventative measures.

So you're just talking shit then. Judgemental ignorant bollocks.

Proper nasty shit blaming people for their illnesses.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

So you're just talking shit then. Judgemental ignorant bollocks.

Proper nasty shit blaming people for their illnesses.

Oops, looks like he's finally flipped, the signs were there. It might be an idea to learn how to keep your composure.

"Talking shit"?
"Judgemental ignorant bollocks"?


Are you saying that the leading causes of premature death and chronic illnesses are NOT preventable? I'd love to see your working so that you can demonstrate your apparently superior knowledge, however I suspect that this time you have really left the building and slammed the door shut behind you after throwing your toys out of the pram, lol. I wonder if there's going to be another comeback. That mini rant of yours has perhaps showed your true colours, along with all those long winded complicated hypothetical scenarios and semantic gymnastics , I don't believe that you were ever interested in having a balanced civilised discussion in the first place. At least CR and MI5 don't try to hide their trolling.

Anyway, on the subject of preventable diseases, I wouldn't have thought that it would be that hard for you to find the widely available information, perhaps you were not really interested in looking and just needed something to try and attack me with :-


Chronic Disease Overview | Publications | Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion | CDC

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I would also recommend anything from the legend that is Dr Greger :-

NutritionFacts.org | The Latest in Nutrition Related Research

I have the Kindle version of his excellent book, well worth a look imo...
How Not To Die

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A quack claiming to be able to cure/prevent all known diseases?

At best you should be flagging his claims up as controversial. Here's one of many criticisms of his work to be found online. From a first look, even those who like his work have to admit that he cherry-picks his studies to match the conclusion he wants to reach.

 

[gentlegreen]

Preventable diseases.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

A quack claiming to be able to cure/prevent all known diseases?

Er, nope, wrong again. I suggest that you read or listen to what he actually says and not just make things up off the top of your head.

At best you should be flagging his claims up as controversial.

I doubt that you even know what his claims are, lol

Here's one of many criticisms of his work to be found online.

Yeah right, "here's a 4 year old critique that I just found online and putting forward as evidence of Gregers quackery". There have been several take downs of Ms Hall's low quality unscientific critique which funnily enough can also be found online. Now ain't that something.

From a first look, even those who like his work have to admit that he cherry-picks his studies to match the conclusion he wants to reach.

So you haven't actually looked properly and you are relying on what you yourself have cherry picked with Googles help, to reach the conclusion you want to reach. Hmmm, as tempting as your research might appear at first glance, I think I still prefer Dr Greger. You get a 6/10 for effort though, which isn't bad.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Er, nope, wrong again. I suggest that you read or listen to what he actually says and not just make things up off the top of your head.

I doubt that you even know what his claims are, lol


Yeah right, "here's a 4 year old critique that I just found online and putting forward as evidence of Gregers quackery". There have been several take downs of Ms Hall's low quality unscientific critique which funnily enough can also be found online. Now ain't that something.


So you haven't actually looked properly and you are relying on what you yourself have cherry picked with Googles help, to reach the conclusion you want to reach. Hmmm, as tempting as your research might appear at first glance, I think I still prefer Dr Greger. You get a 6/10 for effort though, which isn't bad.

I didn't reach a conclusion other than starting out with the approach: 'this is a list of huge claims - I'm not just going to accept them unquestioning, I'm going to look and see what others have said about them'. Would you like to address the accusation of cherry-picking? Do you understand the accusation of cherry-picking?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

No sorry, I'm bored of you now, I'm not interested in going through another one of your time wasting convoluted mazes. Your instant dismissal without actually reading his stuff and accusation of quackery based on what "others" have said once again shows your true colours.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fuck me you're full of shit.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I would also recommend anything from the legend that is Dr Greger :-

NutritionFacts.org | The Latest in Nutrition Related Research

I have the Kindle version of his excellent book, well worth a look imo...
How Not To Die

View attachment 113607

Fuck me. Seriously?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We should not be growing replacement organs in pigs because we would be able to do away with the need for transplants if we all went vegan. Biggest cop-out in the entire thread.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

We should not be growing replacement organs in pigs because we would be able to do away with the need for transplants if we all went vegan. Biggest cop-out in the entire thread.

Except nobody actually said that. Strawman much?