Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[DaveCinzano]

It starts off with speaking you're branes, then it's all Doing Your Own Research, and before you know it you're accidentally getting shot in the face whilst peacefully assaulting a government building with assault weapons to save the government

 

[pug]

I can see a whole shit science fiction story where the vaccinated and unvaccinated will retreat from each other, avoid being in the same rooms, so his whole yoga class will be smaller but pure and free from the taint of the vaccine-shedders & nobody who isn't a loon will carry on going.

This is what I see happening right now, not a story, irl
Think about what kind of person your neighbour is, it suits someone like him to alienate some of his his class members or circle from normal people to control some of them in order to feed his desire to feel powerful, clever, mr big penis etc.

 

[scalyboy]

Numbers dropped off as we went into winter, but there was some bloody big ones before that, with speakers like David Icke & Piers Corbyn.

True. I’d forgotten about those, a big one in Trafalgar Square wasn’t there?

 

[two sheds]

Yeah, a mix of anxiety, fear, feeling isolated, etc. then going on the demo and finding lots more like them can create a powerful feeling of belonging very quickly.

Yes, was just going to post something along those lines. People who've been cooped up with very little contact for a year and suddenly come across loads of friendly people.

Which does tend to suggest that our (natural) horrified/pisstaking response might push them further into it. Also true of cults. The most effective way of getting someone out of a cult that I've seen is to quote the actual words of the cult leader (bit difficult here though) where they contradict themselves or did things that were totally at odds with what they preach.

 

[killer b]

This fits almost exactly with what i have noticed in bristol. The people i know who have gone down this road over the virus and vaccine (not the other stuff, not yet anyway) are almost all self-employed old punks (and by this i mean people involved in early class war and anarcho-punk onwards) - plumbers, electricians etc. Their relationship with specialist knowledge is that they are the ones who have it not the public, and in fact their relationship with the public is one of leveraging that knowledge to their gain, so they think they know what other 'experts' are up to. They are very confident and independent in their knowledge and the lack of others same knowledge - not even lack of knowledge but lack of capability. That is something that was written through the most snobby parts of punk and individualist anarchism. That allied with an individualist ethos can be poisonous an has been, quite literally in one mates case who was months in hospital. Whereas those from the more socialist tradition i know (that the RA/IWCA/SP end of things) tend to be employed in larger organisations with people above/around them with shared knowledge and collective reliance to get stuff done/kept safe - and i cannot think of single one whose gone to the darkside.

all the lockdown sceptics in my orbit are small business owners / sole traders / self employed people who's businesses & jobs have been heavily impacted by the restrictions. There doesn't seem to be a similar issue - or at least not as big an issue - with other friends who've lost jobs, lost hours or been furloughed for the last 12 months though.

 

[bimble]

This is what I see happening right now, not a story, irl
Think about what kind of person your neighbour is, it suits someone like him to alienate some of his his class members or circle from normal people to control some of them in order to feed his desire to feel powerful, clever, mr big penis etc.

Some truth in that yeah. And i can feel it in myself, this is becoming a dividing line in my head, don't think i could be friends or fancy someone who refused to have the vaccine, unless you know for medical reasons etc.

 

[two sheds]

I wonder whether a good approach would be stress the not wanting to pass the virus on to vulnerable people. I only know one person who said she's not having the vaccine but she has rellies who could be vulnerable. Mind you saying that, she's somewhat anti-vaxx for MMR too so unlikely to shift her.

 

[cupid_stunt]

all the lockdown sceptics in my orbit are small business owners / sole traders / self employed people who's businesses & jobs have been heavily impacted by the restrictions. There doesn't seem to be a similar issue - or at least not as big an issue - with other friends who've lost jobs, lost hours or been furloughed for the last 12 months though.

That's odd, as I know loads of small business owners / sole traders / self employed people, in fact I am meeting 3 of them for a drink at noon, and none are lockdown sceptics, despite being hit hard by the lockdowns.

 

[ska invita]

anecdotes based on tiny groups of people rarely make up a bigger picture

 

[cupid_stunt]

anecdotes based on tiny groups of people rarely make up a bigger picture

True.

But, OTOH, compliance to the rules has always been astonishing high here, and I think that feeds into the people's thinking concerning the whole overall situation.

 

[magneze]

Isn't vaccine take-up well over 90%? That's more than expected. Is it worth stressing about people who don't want it?

 

[BigMoaner]

One of the things I find worrying is that some people who went along to that march (and it looked huge, despite police reports of 10,000 or less) will not have been full loon, but were maybe drawn in because of doubts about the wisdom of the government's Covid strategy, lost their jobs, been furloughed, got into debt, their businesses tanked etc. Then they meet loads of people at the march and inevitably will be exposed to full conspiraloonery, either from demagogues /grifters making speeches or loon leaflets etc. I've seen several people tweeting about what a friendly and supportive atmosphere it was there. This will only make the crazed theories seem more acceptable. "Well I know it sounds bizarre but he was a really nice bloke".

I was looking back on Urban and several months ago these demos were attracting very few people, hundreds at the most.
But it's grown and grown. Like a virus

It is definitely something people should be keeping a close eye on.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Isn't vaccine take-up well over 90%? That's more than expected. Is it worth stressing about people who don't want it?

I think it's worth keeping that sort of perspective in mind. Although there are risks around lower rates among specific groups and areas they probably aren't enough to make a massive impact fingers crossed.

I think this stuff is dangerous beyond just Covid/Vaccine stuff though. At best they get everywhere and clog up worthwhile stuff with their idiocy, and at worst you start getting the sort of thing seen in the US recently. There definitely seems to be a bad trend there.

Also, they're just really fucking annoying aren't they.

 

[LDC]

I think it's worth keeping that sort of perspective in mind. Although there are risks around lower rates among specific groups and areas they probably aren't enough to make a massive impact fingers crossed.

I think this stuff is dangerous beyond just Covid/Vaccine stuff though. At best they get everywhere and clog up worthwhile stuff with their idiocy, and at worst you start getting the sort of thing seen in the US recently. There definitely seems to be a bad trend there.

Also, they're just really fucking annoying aren't they.

Yeah, pretty much what I was going to say. I'm less bothered about small numbers of people not having the vaccine (although there can be specific areas where it has a personal impact) it's more about what's going on politically with this, is it a force that's growing, and if so where is it going to go?

Like with that LBC interview posted earlier; a minute or so from starting off about the lockdown and he's going on about "...taking things back ... the English ... elites, etc."

 

[BigMoaner]

I keep coming back to the word "narcissim." I know we all have narcistic traits, it's part of humanity etc. But smore more so than others, etc...

But break it down for just one minute. Really try and conceptialise the sort of attitude:

I know more than nearly all global scientific communities and institutions.
I know more than whole universes of people who spent their lives studying this.
I know more than the entirety of the world's media, with their myriad of sources
I know more than the NHS
I know more than the all the people who are reporting from the front line
I know more than all the people who know people who have died.
I know so much more that I don't even follow these stupid rules.
No one is the boss of me! IT's all a hoax.

Now if that doesn't scream "narcissim", I'm not sure what does.

 

[emanymton]

the yellow star thing makes me so upset i can't even tell if its fury or something else. I do hate them though, every one who thinks its a good idea to wear that because they can't go in the pub.

Yeah I don't know the words to fully express my contempt for them. Same with the people chucking the word genocide around. I just can't even begin to understand how you could do that.

 

[BigMoaner]

Yeah I don't know the words to fully express my contempt for them. Same with the people chucking the word genocide around. I just can't even begin to understand how you could do that.

This is the truly scary thing.

With far right arseholes, despite it being a sociopathic belief system, you can kinda predict what they will say next. You know their faulty premises and know the faulty conclusions.

And with standard bread and butter right wingers.

But when someone is trying to convince you that Obama eats children and then just smugly says "do your own research" it all becomes something that seems to be a manifestation of something that appears to be unique.

 

[BigMoaner]

anyone with half a brain can run rings around them

i know lbc can be cuntish, but they never have once entertained this bullshit from my listening. plenty of people cut off etc. even the right wing one in the morning won't entertain it. they DO have debates about lockdown length which is never ever given in the context of conspiracy and can actually be quite engaging (though don't agree with it).

 

[BigMoaner]

"Just hte dictator thing?"

 

[existentialist]

I keep coming back to the word "narcissim." I know we all have narcistic traits, it's part of humanity etc. But smore more so than others, etc...

But break it down for just one minute. Really try and conceptialise the sort of attitude:

I know more than nearly all global scientific communities and institutions.
I know more than whole universes of people who spent their lives studying this.
I know more than the entirety of the world's media, with their myriad of sources
I know more than the NHS
I know more than the all the people who are reporting from the front line
I know more than all the people who know people who have died.
I know so much more that I don't even follow these stupid rules.
No one is the boss of me! IT's all a hoax.

Now if that doesn't scream "narcissim", I'm not sure what does.

And a fairly fundamental explanation for why people exhibit narcissistic (one of those words it's hard to know when to stop spelling!) tendencies is that they are compensating for deep-seated insecurities about themselves...

 

[lazythursday]

I can see a whole shit science fiction story where the vaccinated and unvaccinated will retreat from each other, avoid being in the same rooms, so his whole yoga class will be smaller but pure and free from the taint of the vaccine-shedders & nobody who isn't a loon will carry on going.

Indeed, my local new agey / wellness centre (vociferously anti mask / vaccinations and right down the Q-Anon rabbithole from some of their rantings) recently posted on facebook that they are withdrawing from all social media/publicity etc as they are only interested in engaging with 'our tribe' who will find them anyway, and given how busy the car park has been every weekend throughout lockdown I guess they're probably right. Ominously like a cult withdrawing from the mainstream.

 

[emanymton]

Indeed, my local new agey / wellness centre (vociferously anti mask / vaccinations and right down the Q-Anon rabbithole from some of their rantings) recently posted on facebook that they are withdrawing from all social media/publicity etc as they are only interested in engaging with 'our tribe' who will find them anyway, and given how busy the car park has been every weekend throughout lockdown I guess they're probably right. Ominously like a cult withdrawing from the mainstream.

Good let them.

 

[editor]

anyone with half a brain can run rings around them

i know lbc can be cuntish, but they never have once entertained this bullshit from my listening. plenty of people cut off etc. even the right wing one in the morning won't entertain it. they DO have debates about lockdown length which is never ever given in the context of conspiracy and can actually be quite engaging (though don't agree with it).

That guy ringing in is a fucking deluded cunt.

 

[BigMoaner]

Indeed, my local new agey / wellness centre (vociferously anti mask / vaccinations and right down the Q-Anon rabbithole from some of their rantings) recently posted on facebook that they are withdrawing from all social media/publicity etc as they are only interested in engaging with 'our tribe' who will find them anyway, and given how busy the car park has been every weekend throughout lockdown I guess they're probably right. Ominously like a cult withdrawing from the mainstream.

thing is, htere is still a very real and present danger of catching covid. or will be in the future. it's all so nuts.

 

[BigMoaner]

Indeed, my local new agey / wellness centre (vociferously anti mask / vaccinations and right down the Q-Anon rabbithole from some of their rantings) recently posted on facebook that they are withdrawing from all social media/publicity etc as they are only interested in engaging with 'our tribe' who will find them anyway, and given how busy the car park has been every weekend throughout lockdown I guess they're probably right. Ominously like a cult withdrawing from the mainstream.

a place where those above it all can hang out with others who are above it all.

 

[klang]

all the lockdown sceptics in my orbit are small business owners / sole traders / self employed people who's businesses & jobs have been heavily impacted by the restrictions. There doesn't seem to be a similar issue - or at least not as big an issue - with other friends who've lost jobs, lost hours or been furloughed for the last 12 months though.

mate of mine, a famous german actor, just released an anti lockdown video. Not wearing a star, but certainly drawing parallels to Nazi Germany.
He's very well off, nice house in the country, kids going to private school, etc.

 

[emanymton]

Comedy is when you fall down a man hole and die. Tragedy is when I cut my finger.

 

[BillRiver]

mate of mine, a famous german actor, just released an anti lockdown video. Not wearing a star, but certainly drawing parallels to Nazi Germany.
He's very well off, nice house in the country, kids going to private school, etc.

Mate? Or ex-mate?

 

[klang]

Mate? Or ex-mate?

acquaintance I haven't spoken to in a couple of years

 

[Johnny Doe]

mate of mine, a famous german actor, just released an anti lockdown video. Not wearing a star, but certainly drawing parallels to Nazi Germany.
He's very well off, nice house in the country, kids going to private school, etc.

German actors face backlash over ‘cynical’ Covid lockdown videos

Dozens of high-profile actors feature on website making fun of Germany’s coronavirus restrictions

www.theguardian.com

?