Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[Griff]

*try

 

[scalyboy]

Occasionally I think it may be a good idea to try engaging with some of these anti-lockdown, anti-vaxxer, Covid-sceptic people, and maybe nudge them into assessing their sources of information more critically.

Then I see people like this (and there were several more on Saturday's 'March for Freedom' in London) and think, what's the point. Voluntary mask-wearing and Covid vaccination certificates = the Holocaust? Breathtaking.

 

[xenon]

Shedding spike proteins according the video I got sent by text today.

Does this mean they're inclined to stay in doors, away from the vaccinated?

What a shame...

Also, I've always despised and distrusted the new age alternative hippy melure. It so obviously exudes a consumerist style individualism, confirmation bias thinking, and smug narcissistic anti sociality

Fucking hippies.

 

[BillRiver]

Will be strange if their mind changes in the following years and they see that it was an actual pandemic and that millions died. Their memory of themselves during that time will be of them standing outside a tube station or stomping through a supermarket bellowing dangerous misinformation that could directly link to people being harmed. I suppose that'll be too painful to own up to so it'll be a mental fight to keep the "it was all a hoax" thing going until they die. They've got some serious skin in in the game - smug selfies of them everywhere without masks etc. As I said, if and when we come out of this, there'll be a lot of processing of it by the world, a lot of reflection and it'll not age well for those who have put people at risk throughout and encouraged others too. It's sad really, feel a bit sorry for em.

I think this is key for anyone who wants to try and persuade them away from their myth-beliefs.

they (the ones in photos protesting it all online/handing out leaflets about it) are massively invested now. For them to dial it back now would involve too much psychic pain about their initial actions and behaviour. Too much shame and regret.

Unless, maybe, possibly, one could lead them to understanding that there was indeed a conspiracy, but the conspiracy was aimed at tricking people into believing in the things these people currently believe in.

So they were right about there being a conspiracy. They can still trust themselves and be proud of uncovering a conspiracy. Just not the one(s) they initially suspected.

 

[bimble]

the yellow star thing makes me so upset i can't even tell if its fury or something else. I do hate them though, every one who thinks its a good idea to wear that because they can't go in the pub.

 

[LDC]

I'm a bit baffled as to what you're railing against Griff - the way some of us are taking the piss out of some of the anti-lockdown/anti-vax etc. crowd? The lockdown/vaccine acceptance among us, who should be 'rebelling' as you put it? That you think we're lumping in all the anti-lockdown people together and painting them as all beyond help? Or are you skeptical of the whole thing (lockdown measures etc.) or maybe just aspects of it? What's going on? Be useful to know as at the moment it's a bit unclear to me what you're actually pissed off about.

 

[BigMoaner]

Occasionally I think it may be a good idea to try engaging with some of these anti-lockdown, anti-vaxxer, Covid-sceptic people, and maybe nudge them into assessing their sources of information more critically.

Then I see people like this (and there were several more on Saturday's 'March for Freedom' in London) and think, what's the point. Voluntary mask-wearing and Covid vaccination certificates = the Holocaust? Breathtaking.

The grinning.

Thing is, they are so far gone, so fused with emotive selfishness, that their own behaviour has been blindsided.

As said, my friend who I've lost to this shit, sends round the most poisinous shit, and the rest of the group of old school mates - with a fair few centre right types in it - all then text each other saying "what the actual fuck has happened to him?". Which suggests to me there's a huge amount of "waking up" if they ever start ot move away from it that these people will do which will be painful, especially if they are warring with family etc.

 

[BigMoaner]

the yellow star thing makes me so upset i can't even tell if its fury or something else. I do hate them though, every one who thinks its a good idea to wear that because they can't go in the pub.

the genocide meme that they all love also triggers me as much. Genocide? Because you can't fucking sit inside a pub and have to wear a mask at Big Tesco? You are a fucking waste of space.

 

[Poot]

the yellow star thing makes me so upset i can't even tell if its fury or something else. I do hate them though, every one who thinks its a good idea to wear that because they can't go in the pub.

Every time someone compares the pandemic to the war, i lose my shit (more than anything because i have a 15 year old boy who i won't be waving goodbye to anytime soon). But it's all an absolute game to these people, winding people up. They literally have nothing better to do. Ugh. Surely this is now hate speech?

 

[BigMoaner]

"Do you remember covid - frightening time, weren't it? Did you know anyone who died?"

"Oh it was a load of old bollocks, I stood outside Brixton tube at screamed at people to tear off their masks for freedom".

That will really not age well.

 

[LDC]

the genocide meme that they all love also triggers me as much. Genocide? Because you can't fucking sit inside a pub and have to wear a mask at Big Tesco? You are a fucking waste of space.

I mean I totally agree. But for a moment I think it's worth trying to ignore that if possible, and get what's going on underneath it for them, which I think is basically fear. And that's kind of interesting and maybe important to realize. Like fear of what, and why?

 

[existentialist]

FFS, did you forget to check the chart showing who Griff does and doesn't know personally before posting? Classic schoolboy error, that.

I know, I know. I fucked up - no need to rub my nose in it!

 

[BigMoaner]

I mean I totally agree. But for a moment I think it's worth trying to ignore that if possible, and get what's going on underneath it for them, which I think is basically fear. And that's kind of interesting and maybe important to realize. Like fear of what, and why?

I'm not sure whether fear is necessarily the root - perhaps personality. If you're inclined to be anti authority, highly individualist, and have an uncanny faith in your own thinking, then I think it's a natural position to take.

I've been absoloutly terrified over hte months, at various points, perhaps that's why I've clung so strongly to "those whose position suggest they know what they are on about". Perhaps that's just the otherside of the coin - blind alligence.

But it does come down for me a question of who to trust? Imperial, Oxford, Harvard, the NHS? Or randoms. I played my cards, ifswim.

So I'm not sure about fear. More "general outlook" determining this stuff.

 

[existentialist]

Occasionally I think it may be a good idea to try engaging with some of these anti-lockdown, anti-vaxxer, Covid-sceptic people, and maybe nudge them into assessing their sources of information more critically.

Then I see people like this (and there were several more on Saturday's 'March for Freedom' in London) and think, what's the point. Voluntary mask-wearing and Covid vaccination certificates = the Holocaust? Breathtaking.

IME, engaging with them, unless they're on the very beginning of the slippery slope, just tends to feed the beast. There's clearly a bug in some brains which says "if someone is arguing against what I believe, that proves it's true".

 

[existentialist]

I'm a bit baffled as to what you're railing against Griff - the way some of us are taking the piss out of some of the anti-lockdown/anti-vax etc. crowd? The lockdown/vaccine acceptance among us, who should be 'rebelling' as you put it? That you think we're lumping in all the anti-lockdown people together and painting them as all beyond help? Or are you skeptical of the whole thing (lockdown measures etc.) or maybe just aspects of it? What's going on? Be useful to know as at the moment it's a bit unclear to me what you're actually pissed off about.

I won't say that this is true for Griff, but every poster I've ever seen on here who starts out with the whole "they might have a point" schtick ends up going the full conspiraloon. I think they think they're gently easing us into THE TROOF.

 

[BillRiver]

I think it's a bit bigger than that - it's exposed the political decay / splintering of a whole alternative scene, that encompasses the new agey stuff but but also many green-inclined people, lifestyle anarchists, the festival scene. In this area some of the people most involved in Extinction Rebellion have gone down the covid denial route. I guess most of them were conspiracy-inclined before but there still seemed enough common ground, now there seems such a chasm in belief systems.

I think as well, being middle class white people who almost 100% exclusively spend time with other middle class people is a factor in new age types going down these rabbit holes.

Friends who have family in India, Brazil, etc. tend to be most eager to get vaccinated and most appreciative of the privilege.

 

[BigMoaner]

o'brien has a toe to toe over a monkey in a cage

 

[LDC]

Doesn't take long to get to "...us, the English people..." take it back type stuff does it?

 

[BillRiver]

So none of those people marching on Saturday were 'fucking nutters', then?

And some Urbans are 'fucking nutters', because they tend to favour facts, science, logic, rationality** over made-up conspiracies and anti-science?

ETA: Not intending to target you above others here, William of Walworth


Also some of us (or at least this one anyway) identify as nutters because we've been living with a diagnosed psychiatric condition for (in my case 23) years.

With all that entails, including state intervention of varying degrees of helpfulness/harmfulness.

My condition (Complex PTSD) does not alter my relationship with reality (in the sense that I have never been delusional or psychotic) but the lived experiences that have arisen from that diagnosis do impact my reaction to seeing words like "nutter", "loon", and "crazy" used as insults, tbf.

 

[cupid_stunt]

o'brien has a toe to toe over a monkey in a cage

O'Brien - 'I am maintaining epic amounts of patience with a deeply, deeply delusional individual'.

And, at the end of the call, 'Well, thank you Jarvis, I must say I preferred your earlier work'.

 

[scalyboy]

IME, engaging with them, unless they're on the very beginning of the slippery slope, just tends to feed the beast. There's clearly a bug in some brains which says "if someone is arguing against what I believe, that proves it's true".

Sadly I think you’re right.

I have tried with one person, but just gave up fairly quickly as she was so irritating. She told me “she would rather die” than have the vaccine; when I told her I’d been jabbed she said she “didn’t judge me” for it (the magnanimity!)

I asked her what was the problem with the vaccine anyway; in response she sent me a page from some gibberish website about Bill Gates wanting to alter everyone’s DNA.

I had a quick look at this website and fairly quickly found several pages of virulent anti-Semitic nonsense, sent one back to her saying “this is where you get your info from?” and “never send me links like that again”.

She was mortified, but when I asked how had she come across this rubbish (I would categorise her as on the left, but clearly having fallen down the rabbit hole), she said (and I quote): “I typed ‘Bill Gates is evil’ into Google and this was the first hit I got”.

After that I stopped responding to her messages. Life’s too short.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

She was mortified, but when I asked how had she come across this rubbish (I would categorise her as on the left, but clearly having fallen down the rabbit hole), she said (and I quote): “I typed ‘Bill Gates is evil’ into Google and this was the first hit I got”.

Research!

 

[scalyboy]

One of the things I find worrying is that some people who went along to that march (and it looked huge, despite police reports of 10,000 or less) will not have been full loon, but were maybe drawn in because of doubts about the wisdom of the government's Covid strategy, lost their jobs, been furloughed, got into debt, their businesses tanked etc. Then they meet loads of people at the march and inevitably will be exposed to full conspiraloonery, either from demagogues /grifters making speeches or loon leaflets etc. I've seen several people tweeting about what a friendly and supportive atmosphere it was there. This will only make the crazed theories seem more acceptable. "Well I know it sounds bizarre but he was a really nice bloke".

I was looking back on Urban and several months ago these demos were attracting very few people, hundreds at the most.
But it's grown and grown. Like a virus

 

[scalyboy]

I'm not sure whether fear is necessarily the root - perhaps personality. If you're inclined to be anti authority, highly individualist, and have an uncanny faith in your own thinking, then I think it's a natural position to take.

I've been absoloutly terrified over hte months, at various points, perhaps that's why I've clung so strongly to "those whose position suggest they know what they are on about". Perhaps that's just the otherside of the coin - blind alligence.

But it does come down for me a question of who to trust? Imperial, Oxford, Harvard, the NHS? Or randoms. I played my cards, ifswim.

So I'm not sure about fear. More "general outlook" determining this stuff.

I wonder if the same personality types are those who fall victim to cults like Scientology? Cos that's pretty much what this dull-on conspiraloon belief system is - a cult.

 

[Pickman's model]

She was mortified, but when I asked how had she come across this rubbish (I would categorise her as on the left, but clearly having fallen down the rabbit hole), she said (and I quote): “I typed ‘Bill Gates is evil’ into Google and this was the first hit I got”.

never heard of search engine optimisation from the sounds of it

 

[cupid_stunt]

I was looking back on Urban and several months ago these demos were attracting very few people, hundreds at the most.
But it's grown and grown. Like a virus

Numbers dropped off as we went into winter, but there was some bloody big ones before that, with speakers like David Icke & Piers Corbyn.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not sure whether fear is necessarily the root - perhaps personality. If you're inclined to be anti authority, highly individualist, and have an uncanny faith in your own thinking, then I think it's a natural position to take.

This fits almost exactly with what i have noticed in bristol. The people i know who have gone down this road over the virus and vaccine (not the other stuff, not yet anyway) are almost all self-employed old punks (and by this i mean people involved in early class war and anarcho-punk onwards) - plumbers, electricians etc. Their relationship with specialist knowledge is that they are the ones who have it not the public, and in fact their relationship with the public is one of leveraging that knowledge to their gain, so they think they know what other 'experts' are up to. They are very confident and independent in their knowledge and the lack of others same knowledge - not even lack of knowledge but lack of capability. That is something that was written through the most snobby parts of punk and individualist anarchism. That allied with an individualist ethos can be poisonous, and has been, quite literally in one mates case who was months in hospital. Whereas those from the more socialist tradition i know (that the RA/IWCA/SP end of things) tend to be employed in larger organisations with people above/around them with shared knowledge and collective reliance to get stuff done/kept safe - and i cannot think of single one whose gone to the darkside.

 

[two sheds]

One of the things I find worrying is that some people who went along to that march (and it looked huge, despite police reports of 10,000 or less) will not have been full loon, but were maybe drawn in because of doubts about the wisdom of the government's Covid strategy, lost their jobs, been furloughed, got into debt, their businesses tanked etc. Then they meet loads of people at the march and inevitably will be exposed to full conspiraloonery, either from demagogues /grifters making speeches or loon leaflets etc. I've seen several people tweeting about what a friendly and supportive atmosphere it was there. This will only make the crazed theories seem more acceptable. "Well I know it sounds bizarre but he was a really nice bloke".

I was looking back on Urban and several months ago these demos were attracting very few people, hundreds at the most.
But it's grown and grown. Like a virus

Love bombing which scientology and others use in partial response to your second post.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I typed ‘Bill Gates is evil’ into Google and this was the first hit I got”.

Donated $1.75bn to the global response to covid, fucking evil bastard.

 

[LDC]

Love bombing which scientology and others use in partial response to your second post.

Yeah, a mix of anxiety, fear, feeling isolated, etc. then going on the demo and finding lots more like them can create a powerful feeling of belonging very quickly.