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Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

lazythursday said:
This is the thing isn't it. I've happily sat round the table with many of these people in the past. Danced with them at parties, shared a spliff, sat round a fire. I just have no idea how I will be able to do that in the future, because this isn't just some wacky conspiracy about covid, it's a whole insane (and very far right) worldview. And I just know that lots of other well meaning people will just try to make sure they are not excluded, because 'their heart is in the right place really' or some such hippy bullshit.
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There's a guy on my block who is full of this stuff, starting from 9/11 onwards. I used to have nice chats in the street but now I know what's coming, I keep it to a quick nod and be on my way. It's the fucking arrogance that they're so special because they 'know' better and we're all stupid sheeple that gets me.
 
krtek a houby said:
Am reminded of the beloved local where you'd rub shoulders with all people with all different beliefs and occasional, conversation might get heated, and surreal.

But it was still back and forth and learning, of sorts.

Don't see anything like that with this new religion. It's just off the charts, reality denying, weapons grade bonkers.

And it's everywhere now. Least it feels that way.

Remember when people would put "Jedi" on the census forms, for the lols? Maybe some were vaguely serious, but this... this is all pervasive.

And it's grown so fast. Genuinely worried where it takes us next.
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or that strange feeling when you have a mate spouting political bollocks in a pub and listening to them but deep within you you know that you still like them, strangely, still have affection for them, are still bonded with them.

that feeling is just not there on the internet. so it's just polarities all the time, camps, rabit holes.
 
mojo pixy said:
On reddit, r/nonewnormal is thoroughly, tear-jerkingly depressing. Not that I want anyone to go there, but like a mouth ulcer you can't stop licking, I can't bring myself to unsubscribe. As some may understand, I keep thinking I can engage in a way that makes someone re-think, but nobody there is interested in anything that isn't already part of the groupthink.

And this is not a class issue, as far as I can tell .. it seems to cut across what I understand as social class at every level. Which to me, makes it even more difficult to fix. It's personal, individualist and subjective. There's no way in - unless you're in already .. and then there's no way out.

It's possibly even more troubling than capitalism itself.
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I force myself to look at these views from time to time, because I think it's important to listen outside my own bubble (I do the same on here with Brexit threads, which feel to me to be on the whole a demoralising cesspit of misdirected rage and nihilism), but it isn't a nice experience. Minds closed and walled up like impenetrable castles, an existence reduced to simplistic black/white judgements about people, things, and the world...it's an uncomfortable experience.

But TBH I think anyone who thinks they're going to go in there and help people see the light is kidding themselves. It can be done, but usually one-on-one within the context of some kind of trusting relationship. Mostly, if I have to interact, I just post a :D reaction to the looniest of them, and leave it alone. And have a wash afterwards.
 
BigMoaner said:
or that strange feeling when you have a mate spouting political bollocks in a pub and listening to them but deep within you you know that you still like them, strangely, still have affection for them, are still bonded with them.

that feeling is just not there on the internet. so it's just polarities all the time, camps, rabit holes.
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Very much so.

And the horrible realization that its not going to just suddenly disappear, either.

Hope am wrong, but it feels like the foundation of a new religion.
 
I do keep reminding myself though that this is a tiny tiny minority. The vast vast majority of people are in favour of lockdowns, and the conspiracy-types are only a small proportion of those opposed. It's the intensity of their views and the irrationality of it that is so disturbing. I'm trying to think of them as much like evangelical Christians or any other fundamentalist religion, and accept that perhaps the best course of action is just to be civil in everyday life, not engage with their 'religious' or political views unless they are actively harming the community (eg by backing some unpleasant political campaign or something). If I had a friend who became an evangelical Christian I guess I'd remain friendly on an interpersonal level though I wouldn't want to go to their church or discuss their views.
 
lazythursday said:
I do keep reminding myself though that this is a tiny tiny minority. The vast vast majority of people are in favour of lockdowns, and the conspiracy-types are only a small proportion of those opposed. It's the intensity of their views and the irrationality of it that is so disturbing. I'm trying to think of them as much like evangelical Christians or any other fundamentalist religion, and accept that perhaps the best course of action is just to be civil in everyday life, not engage with their 'religious' or political views unless they are actively harming the community (eg by backing some unpleasant political campaign or something). If I had a friend who became an evangelical Christian I guess I'd remain friendly on an interpersonal level though I wouldn't want to go to their church or discuss their views.
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really not sure it's a tiny one. i think the 20 to 40 group they are far more present than the 40+.
 
I'm hoping that these anti-vaxxers <----> quanon idiots and all the extremists between there [you know what I mean !]
will eventually disappear up their collective posteriors.
They are such a small minority that I don't want to waste time / energy on them, but very unfortunately they are very vocal - helped by that there farceachebook - and somehow very alluring to the more gullible personality. Since they also include climate change deniers amongst their ranks as well as covid-is-a-hoax-ers, these two types, added to the anti-vaxxers actually present society with a problem.
But, since these groups all deny real scientific research in favour of watching rambling rubbish on u-toobe, what can you do ?
It is like trying to de-cult someone !
 
bimble said:
I just learnt that there is no pig extract in any of the covid vaccines that are being used in the UK. Apparently that's a thing that religious minorities have been scaring themselves about.
Pickman's model jews have a problem, the religious ones are a bit rubbish at vaccinating their children. Dunno about the animists they're probably fine.

www.ny1.com

Orthodox Community Faces Down Misinformation In Vaccine Education Efforts

Education efforts get underway ahead of a major holiday.
www.ny1.com www.ny1.com
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This morning, someone I just yesterday added on facebook (an anarchist vegan who is very much into animal rights) posted what appeared to be an anti-vaccine video. So I actually posted: Jeezus, don't tell me you're anti-vaccine?!. And his response was that he wasn't anti-vaccine but anti-vivisection. Along with the video was the message: proof the NHS is lying - this is genocide, the jabs must stop. I probably should have watched the video but didn't want to at the time and what I saw kinda told me all I needed to know. The guy in the video is also apparently a doctor.

This facebook friend of mine has worked in councilling and I think he still does. I think he currently works in helping people with addiction problems. He's also involved in the local animal rights and anti-racist scene (or has been).
 
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Count Cuckula said:
This morning, someone I just yesterday added on facebook (an anarchist vegan who is very much into animal rights) posted what appeared to be an anti-vaccine video. So I actually posted: Jeezus, don't tell me you're anti-vaccine?!. And his response was that he wasn't anti-vaccine but anti-vivisection. Along with the video was the message: proof the NHS is lying - this is genocide, the jabs must stop. I probably should have watched the video but didn't want to at the time and what I saw kinda told me all I needed to know. The guy in the video is also apparently a doctor.

This facebook friend of mine has worked in councilling and I think he still does. I think he currently works in helping people with addiction problems. He's also involved in the local animal rights and anti-racist scene (or has been).
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Spy on them. Some escalate very very quickly.
 
I think there are some legitimate vegan /animal rights concerns about the vaccines - a friend of mine who is very much that way inclined posted a long post explaining why it bothered her but ultimately why she'd decided to have the vaccine anyway. I suspect that the majority of animal rights activists have a stronger politics than, say, new agey wellbeing types to buy wholesale into all this but am sure there wlll be exceptions.
 
I'm exchanging messages with this facebook friend now. He's just posted this. Don't know where to get the sources to counter this:

"Not true, the vaccine does not reduce your chances of getting covid but at best stops you from becoming seriously ill with it. The vaccine is early in delivery and a GP told me it is presently a social experiment and he said if you have it wait until Autumn when we will have more data on its efficacy."

He also just posted this:

"I don't agree with Dr Coleman (the guy in the video) word for word but my argument is anti vivisection. Why would I spend years doing animal liberation stuff and getting criminal records with it to then allow animals to be tortured and killed for a vaccine? Either I am an animal liberation vegan or I am not."
 
Count Cuckula said:
"Not true, the vaccine does not reduce your chances of getting covid but at best stops you from becoming seriously ill with it.
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They've confused 'what the vaccine actually achieves' with 'what hard evidence we have so far in regards what the vaccine achieves'.

For example vaccines are expected to affect transmission, but it takes longer for that data and analysis to come in, and authorities want to avoid making big claims until they are actually backed up by data. But they still expect it to have effects well beyond 'you get less seriously ill'.
 
my argument is anti vivisection. Why would I spend years doing animal liberation stuff and getting criminal records with it to then allow animals to be tortured and killed for a vaccine? Either I am an animal liberation vegan or I am not."
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This occurred to me a while ago and the Vegan Society's response is unhelpfully equivocal.

'' However, we would like to make it clear that The Vegan Society encourages vegans to look after their health and that of others, in order to continue to be effective advocates for veganism and other animals. As there is no plan for compulsory vaccination, it is the responsibility of each individual to make an informed decision about vaccines, bearing in mind the definition of veganism, with support from their local healthcare team. ''

I haven't asked any of my RL vegan friends how they feel on the matter and probably won't, it would be a bit provocative.
 
Count Cuckula said:
This morning, someone I just yesterday added on facebook (an anarchist vegan who is very much into animal rights) posted what appeared to be an anti-vaccine video. So I actually posted: Jeezus, don't tell me you're anti-vaccine?!. And his response was that he wasn't anti-vaccine but anti-vivisection. Along with the video was the message: proof the NHS is lying - this is genocide, the jabs must stop. I probably should have watched the video but didn't want to at the time and what I saw kinda told me all I needed to know. The guy in the video is also apparently a doctor.

This facebook friend of mine has worked in councilling and I think he still does. I think he currently works in helping people with addiction problems. He's also involved in the local animal rights and anti-racist scene (or has been).
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Much as I hate to acknowledge it, there is quite an overlap between counselling and a lot of the woo-based stuff, at the far end of which is this sort of conspiracy theory shit. I am quite clear in my teaching role that there is no place for that kind of thing in counselling, but I can't teach everyone!
 
Count Cuckula said:
This morning, someone I just yesterday added on facebook (an anarchist vegan who is very much into animal rights) posted what appeared to be an anti-vaccine video. So I actually posted: Jeezus, don't tell me you're anti-vaccine?!. And his response was that he wasn't anti-vaccine but anti-vivisection. Along with the video was the message: proof the NHS is lying - this is genocide, the jabs must stop. I probably should have watched the video but didn't want to at the time and what I saw kinda told me all I needed to know. The guy in the video is also apparently a doctor.

This facebook friend of mine has worked in councilling and I think he still does. I think he currently works in helping people with addiction problems. He's also involved in the local animal rights and anti-racist scene (or has been).
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Vaccine development 100% involves vivisection. He's a vegan anarchist, not surprising really.
 
He also posted that the recovery rate from covid is 99.9%. He's definitely not right because he deleted the thread earlier and repeatedly posted about how vegan he is and so won't have the vaccine because he's against all forms of animal exploitation. I replied to this with the info from the helpful post above by elbows and also that the advice from the Vegan Society seems to be to take the vaccine.

Haven't returned to facebook yet to see if he's responded. Just got back from doing the days shopping.

Edit: he hasn't replied yet.
 
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IC3D said:
Vaccine development 100% involves vivisection. He's a vegan anarchist, not surprising really.
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I know vegan anarchists who are willing to have the vaccine though, and they are aware of how it's produced. They are as vegan as is practically possible, thats how they see it and I think they are wise to take that position.
 
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I've already fallen out with someone because they won't take the vaccine, this person was also posting talk radio and transphobic videos on his facebook page..

Atleast this guy isn't doing that, and I don't want to fall out with another person (although we are not close). At the same time though he's somewhat of a caricature of a vegan and a hardcore animal liberationist and is very irresponsible posting this anti-vaccine crap. I see it as extreme. Part of me says to give him a chance and maybe, in time he will change. The other part of me feels he'll never change and wants nothing to do with him.

Even though we're not close, I was hoping we could get to know each other better so this is disappointing.
 
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Count Cuckula said:
"I don't agree with Dr Coleman (the guy in the video) word for word but my argument is anti vivisection. Why would I spend years doing animal liberation stuff and getting criminal records with it to then allow animals to be tortured and killed for a vaccine? Either I am an animal liberation vegan or I am not."
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Ideally animals wouldn't be used in testing drugs, but it's the world we live in and it's a moral price worth paying to be protected against a serious illness. It may be deeply uncomfortable for some, but none of us can live a life absolutely true to our ethical views - compromise is inevitable.
 
One of my young co-workers has revealed himself as believing that Covid is like the common cold or doesn't even exist, just a big scam. I told him that was like thinking the Moon wasn't real, and he got huffy, saying 'Well that's what I believe' like it's a matter of personal taste.

He's an agreeable lad so I couldn't be bothered pressing the case but it is fair to say that he is a bit dense as well
 
This guy on facebook has unfriended me now. He's one of those hardline vegans who is obsessed with animal liberation so I'm not fussed.

I've tried making him see sense but it's no use. He seems to think that if you have the vaccine you're not vegan. I think he's only friends with hardcore vegans like himself. I think me telling him I'm not vegan is what made him unfriend me. People like that are really weird if you ask me, so I think it's for the best.
 
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Count Cuckula said:
This guy on facebook has unfriended me now. He's one of those hardline vegans who is obsessed with animal liberation so I'm not fussed.

I've tried making him see sense but it's no use. He seems to think that if you have the vaccine you're not vegan. I think he's only friends with hardcore vegans like himself. I think me telling him I'm not vegan is what made him unfriend me. People like that are really weird if you ask me, so I think it's for the best.
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all the levels used in setting safe standards for drinking water are derived from animal testing. Unless your mate is drinking out of puddles and avoiding any drinks sold at retail then they aren’t vegan by their own definition. Might be worth pointing this out next time you see them sinking a pint.
 
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