Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[Johnny Doe]

I'm sorry about your friends but literally all of the ones I know - or at least the ones I haven't defriended yet - don't fit that description at all. They remain calmly and smugly convinced that they're absolutely right and any post challenging their bizarre worldview is swiftly rounded upon by their chums.

And, naturally, FB keeps them well fed with a newsfeed that reinforces their bonkers take on the pandemic.

I dunno Ed, my relative had exactly that smug attitude but alternated with fairly manic fear - I'm of few people who've seen the latter.

 

[elbows]

Does anyone know about proper clinical paranoia? I've read that it can be hereditary, so presumably there's a gene for it. Would it be accurate to say that the gene may be activated in some people but can remain dormant and 'untriggered' in others? If so, what are the possible triggers? Perhaps cocaine is one. Are there others, psychiatric or psychological in nature? Is there some pandemic-related reason why the gene may be triggered more often these days?

Its complicated, overly simplistic stuff like that isnt usually fit for purpose. There are usually numerous genes associated with things, only some of which we know anything about, and effects of some are probably countered by effects of others, as well as our experiences, development, support, sense of the world and our coping mechanisms. There will also be physical stuff that isnt directly gene related, such as damage to certain things. Common illnesses that we typically think of as being temporary can probably be a trigger if they leave some things damaged or imbalanced afterwards, so we also have to consider genes that can make people susceptible to such damage.

I could say similar stuff about the classification systems we've constructed that detail particular conditions - they are often a convenience in order to standardise diagnosis and treatment regimes. There is probably far more than one sort of schizophrenia for example, and there could be very different underlying causes that just happen to manifest in similar ways. And even the classification system has numerous options encoded into it, sometimes leading to expert disagreement about which version is the best fit for a particular patient. So for example we end up with classifications such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, schizotypal disorder, a bunch of personality disorders, and indeed the idea that the schizophrenic disorders occupy a spectrum. Its possible the same underlying issues could be diagnosed as various different things depending mostly on the detail of how they've ended up manifesting in a paticular indivudual. And the individuals attempts to cope, including self-medication strategies and belief systems, can make a difference as to how their illness is viewed. Not to mention what are considered to be 'normal' beliefs given their particular cultural background.

Life experiences, perceived patterns, internal explanations we come up with to make sense of the world, physical diseases, genetic susceptibilities, substances ingested and a bunch of other stuff can all play a part. Including quality of sleep and quality of support networks. Attempts to unravel this stuff are often unsatisfactory and crude.

 

[scalyboy]

unless they have mild symptoms or are asymptomatic - in which case it'll feed into the "imaginary disease" bollox. I didn't get it bad so the rest of the world are making it all up.

And will go about their daily business infecting others

 

[scalyboy]

what are the possible triggers?

The internet, specifically social media ?

 

[8ball]

That the swabs give you cancer is not the most extreme end of views, some think the swab gives you covid/takes a DNA sample/puts nanobots in your head/etc.

Shit - this is the first I've heard of this idiocy.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

That the swabs give you cancer is not the most extreme end of views, some think the swab gives you covid/takes a DNA sample/puts nanobots in your head/etc.

Then they store the DNA in that strange cuboid structure that the Chinese 'found' on the Moon.

 

[izz]

Since there's bugger all point trying to argue with these people rationally has anyone devised an equally emotion-only response ? "Oh the government don't actually want you to have the vaccine so they save money in pension payments later" ?

 

[two sheds]

10/10 for that doctor that said something like "So what if the tests give you cancer, you're already got that fucker!"

Yep but like I said - that's become proof that (all) doctors are all in on the tests really giving you cancer

 

[two sheds]

Does anyone know about proper clinical paranoia? I've read that it can be hereditary, so presumably there's a gene for it. Would it be accurate to say that the gene may be activated in some people but can remain dormant and 'untriggered' in others? If so, what are the possible triggers? Perhaps cocaine is one. Are there others, psychiatric or psychological in nature? Is there some pandemic-related reason why the gene may be triggered more often these days?

My sis was a Clinical Psychologist Psychiatrist for 20ish years until she retired and when I asked her about mum she gave the paranoia as a definite diagnosis. I think she actually said schizophrenic paranoia.

I've often wondered myself whether it is hereditary, and have always felt there's a chance I'll go that way too and that i should watch myself for similar symptoms.

But is that one of the symptoms?

Eta: my mum was also deaf, and because she couldn't hear us when we were talking as a family often thought we were talking about her. I'm sure that fed into the paranoia and made it loads worse.

 

[killer b]

They remain calmly and smugly convinced that they're absolutely right and any post challenging their bizarre worldview is swiftly rounded upon by their chums.

This describes the public facing attitude of the anti-vaxxers I know too tbf - but it only takes a few minutes conversation to discover it's one of their only rocks of certainty in a roiling ocean of madness/depression/etc. What other explanation could there be for people believing all this totally mad shit?

 

[existentialist]

They are so so scared aren’t they? Like little children. It’s almost enough to make one feel sorry for them.

Almost.

 

[scalyboy]

Then they store the DNA in that strange cuboid structure that the Chinese 'found' on the Moon.

Alongside Elvis, Lord Lucan and Shergar

 

[BigMoaner]

That the swabs give you cancer is not the most extreme end of views, some think the swab gives you covid/takes a DNA sample/puts nanobots in your head/etc.

yes it's common fodder that the sticks will give you cancer, or that they are somehow being used for sinister means. or are fake. just standard loon bread and butter.

what keeps me coming back like pavlovs dog without a reward is the idea that this is new, is spreading, and will be part of our democratic make up for the forseable. i really hope i am wrong. watch them like hawks though. what we are witnissing here is another manifestation of extremisim. just hope i will never have to put the word "mass" infront of that word.

 

[editor]

This describes the public facing attitude of the anti-vaxxers I know too tbf - but it only takes a few minutes conversation to discover it's one of their only rocks of certainty in a roiling ocean of madness/depression/etc. What other explanation could there be for people believing all this totally mad shit?

Again, that stereotype doesn't fit some of the people I know. I wish it did really as it would make it easier to understand.

 

[scalyboy]

yes it's common fodder that the sticks will give you cancer, or that they are somehow being used for sinister means. or are fake. just standard loon bread and butter.

what keeps me coming back like pavlovs dog without a reward is the idea that this is new, is spreading, and will be part of our democratic make up for the forseable. i really hope i am wrong. watch them like hawks though. what we are witnissing here is another manifestation of extremisim. just hope i will never have to put the word "mass" infront of that word.

Maybe they've always been around, but because the pandemic has affected everyone (lockdowns etc) there appear to be more loons...?
There were anti-MMR vaccine theories ("it will induce autism in your kids") doing the rounds on the internet before Covid, but maybe the section of the population who would've been highly interested in the MMR jab was much smaller? Parents of very young children - how many are there in the UK?

(this is me trying to put a positive spin on things )

 

[gentlegreen]

I wonder if we might have fared better without the Internet - or perhaps the Internet makes us frighteningly aware of an undercurrent of Dunning-Kruger that was always there ..
I found myself watching a short documentary about the London Blitz the other day and there were pockets of resistance - certainly while there was a lull in the air war before the doodlebugs ...

 

[scalyboy]

Again, that stereotype doesn't fit some of the people I know. I wish it did really as it would make it easier to understand.

I suspect there may be multiple reasons for people being anti-vax, several sub-groups being motivated for different reasons?

 

[scalyboy]

I wonder if we might have fared better without the Internet - or perhaps the Internet makes us frighteningly aware of an undercurrent of Dunning-Kruger that was always there ..
I found myself watching a short documentary about the London Blitz the other day and there were pockets of resistance - certainly while there was a lull in the air war before the doodlebugs ...

I'm sure the Internet and social media have helped to spread these ideas much wider and faster than pre-Net days. When I was a nipper, if I wanted to read an alternative theory that LBJ had JFK killed, for example, I'd have to send off a cheque or postal order to the US for a badly-produced pamphlet that would take ages to arrive. And the fact that it was photocopied or roneographed or whatever made it seem amateurish and untrustworthy, not so with Twitter or Facebook. A loon's tweet looks as professional as does one from Whitty (barring ALL CAPS or spelling mistakes)

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I'm sure there are as many different reasons behind being anti-vax as there are anti-vaxxers once you get into the details. I do think it acts as a sort of mental shield to a lot of them though. I think that can be why they need to project such total confidence in it, and also why they need to fit every new thing that emerges into the same framework - once there's a crack of doubt in there all sorts of horrible shit (ie reality) is liable to pour through.

Whether I feel sorry for them depends on my mood and what level of twattery they're currently committing tbh. I don't really care about the deeper reasons why someone might end up outside a hospital shouting at patients.

 

[gentlegreen]

I'm sure the Internet and social media have helped to spread these ideas much wider and faster than pre-Net days. When I was a nipper, if I wanted to read an alternative theory that LBJ had JFK killed, for example, I'd have to send off a cheque or postal order to the US for a badly-produced pamphlet that would take ages to arrive. And the fact that it was photocopied or roneographed or whatever made it seem amateurish and untrustworthy, not so with Twitter or Facebook. A loon's tweet looks as professional as does one from Whitty (barring ALL CAPS or spelling mistakes)

I can remember our general studies tutor on an electronics course introducing me to the Kennedy conspiracies in 1981 when I was 21 - it would take the Internet to introduce me to anything else - you literally had to "do your own research" back then - which meant visiting libraries and stuff ...

 

[two sheds]

Yep I'm sure there are many mutant strains of antivaxxism - I'd imagine they'd be very localized as to which strain people get. The cunt upthread for example will doubtless be spreading that variant to his own sheeple.

 

[BigMoaner]

Yep I'm sure there are many mutant strains of antivaxxism - I'd imagine they'd be very localized as to which strain people get. The cunt upthread for example will doubtless be spreading that variant to his own sheeple.

and it's monitized as well.

take the author, 20, 30 years ago. he would spend a few years compiling info into the longest form going - i.e. book length. or even say a right wing columist. salaried, pretty safe, cushty number. he has the time and space and security to write long and dull and explorative.

both of these two "grifters" have no real need to hit those dopamine buttons. need to grab in extreme ways peoples' attention. teh business model didn't really require it.

fast forward to now. the youtube grifter will not survive on dull, lengthy, meandering narratives in his video. he wants to grab you and provoke you FAST. and to keep the wonga rolling in, he has to keep doing it. keeping reaching into your space and provoking you. that's why the right wing grift is so profitable (like £100s of k a month profitable - it's an endless stream of provocation towards teh mainstream liberal (ish) consensus. i am fairly convincned that i could make 10s of K by being a fake right wing grifter on youtube. it's easy. just rant about what ever "liberal progressive" policy/talking point is making the news and watch the dollars fly in.

so what we see with these folks are often victims of people who have monitized their attention.

eta and also its not just money, it's likes. people get addicted to the validation so they will post things that get attention, reactions, etc.

 

[izz]

My sis was a Clinical Psychologist for 20ish years until she retired and when I asked her about mum she gave the paranoia as a definite diagnosis. I think she actually said schizophrenic paranoia.

I've often wondered myself whether it is hereditary, and have always felt there's a chance I'll go that way too and that i should watch myself for similar symptoms.

But is that one of the symptoms?

Eta: my mum was also deaf, and because she couldn't hear us when we were talking as a family often thought we were talking about her. I'm sure that fed into the paranoia and made it loads worse.

It is my very limited understanding that this can be inherited but a sister that's been a clinical psychologist is a godsend - I'm sure she'll be keeping an eye on the both of you. Plus like everything, treatments are improving all the time so in the unlikely event you're afflicted with it, you'll likely have a better time of it than y'ma. Hope that's a comfort

 

[two sheds]

It is my very limited understanding that this can be inherited but a sister that's been a clinical psychologist is a godsend - I'm sure she'll be keeping an eye on the both of you. Plus like everything, treatments are improving all the time so in the unlikely event you're afflicted with it, you'll likely have a better time of it than y'ma. Hope that's a comfort

Oops clinical psychiatrist but yes your point stands.

I'm not actually worried - it started getting to my mum when she was much younger than I am now.

 

[two sheds]

Eta: my sis studiously resists keeping an eye out now she's retired.

She went through several years of "oh you're a doctor, I've been getting this pain ...". I did ask her a couple of things when she was at uni but she'd say something like "I've not done the knee yet". I'm sure she had the same when she told people she was psychiatrist - or more likely told them she was an accountant.

She's one of the most pragmatic people I've ever met though, and not someone you contradict or argue with lightly

She was so disgusted at the government's treatment of the NHS that she's gone all left wing over the last few years after a life of not being interested in politics at all.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

This describes the public facing attitude of the anti-vaxxers I know too tbf - but it only takes a few minutes conversation to discover it's one of their only rocks of certainty in a roiling ocean of madness/depression/etc. What other explanation could there be for people believing all this totally mad shit?

A lack of any kind of analysis that better explains global power dynamics with a huge dollop of narcissism as being bestowed with secret knowledge. They probably like Sci-Fi.

 

[David Clapson]

My stepmother is reckoned by the family to be suffering from paranoia, but she's never seen any sort of doctor about it as far as I know. She thinks MI5 are spying on her. Won't turn on the TV because MI5 can use it as a camera to look at her. Convinced that the postman and neighbours are in on it. Her daughter, my half-sister, is reckoned by me to be paranoid about misogyny. She sees it when it's not there. Has completely irrational responses to innocent remarks and explodes with anger. She's had a series of bitter fallouts, six that I know of, including two of her oldest and best friends, who she used to adore, plus three neighbours, and me. Her fallout with me was followed by two years of silence, then justified by saying that it was my fault and I had it coming to me, but she regretted that I'd been hurt by it. She's had treatment for depression in the past. She used to do coke on nights out. She says she's changed a lot, but frames it as personal growth, 'not taking any shit any more'. Some of her friends can't deal with it, 'but that's their problem'. I doubt she'll ever have any insight into whatever is wrong, or ask for treatment. I used to think of her as my best friend, but now I view her as a sort of cross between an alien and a hand grenade. She's a stranger to me. Her true personality doesn't really exist for me any more. I go along with a superficial, polite friendship for the sake of my brother and his kids.

 

[two sheds]

Yes my mum refused to see a doctor because that would be admitting that there was something wrong with her

 

[BigMoaner]

while no doubt loads are in pain and terror, I think it’s a disservice to the mentally ill to put some of these selfish arseholes in the same breath. I’ve suffered from depression a few times and never thought to flagrantly not give a fuck about the health of my community

 

[8ball]

while no doubt loads are in pain and terror, I think it’s a disservice to the mentally ill to put some of these selfish arseholes in the same breath. I’ve suffered from depression a few times and never thought to flagrantly not give a fuck about the health of my community

I think you've confused depression with delusion.