Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[existentialist]

But the corollary is if you get hit by a car after getting the vaccine, the nutters will say you died of the vaccine. All that magnetism must have attracted the car maybe, or perhaps it was the excellent 5G signal that tempted their eyes from the road.

My partner's grandmother died of it, as did the chap who ran my local corner shop; not people I knew well, but certainly people I knew directly.

I have known of quite a few people who have died of it, including close relations of friends of mine.

I'm tempted, when conspiravaxloons start on that whole "I don't know anyone who's died of it", to say "perhaps you need more friends".

 

[SpineyNorman]

And besides, viruses tend to mutate in ways that make them less dangerous but more transmissable, so mutation is not actually a bad thing in the long run. Eventually we will have to learn to live with a less dangerous variant as the dominant strain, as we do with the flu.

None of this is true.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I am in favour of a mandate and absolutely would hold people down and force the vaccine into them by the way. Fucking children. I guess that would avoid itwillneverworks scary mind reading judge dread passport app though.

 

[NoXion]

Literally what would be the fucking point of that? People's families and friends tend to know if they had COVID or not before they died.

Antivaxx twats, or at least the ones in the US, are convinced that hospitals, coroners etc get more money the more covid cases they declare.

 

[LDC]

Antivaxx twats, or at least the ones in the US, are convinced that hospitals, coroners etc get more money the more covid cases they declare.

Yeah totally, and what's annoying is that on a more subtle wider level they're a tiny bit right, profit and the drive to get it does push lots of things in society.

 

[killer b]

this isn't true though

 

[killer b]

good morning from the united kingdom, where liberals on twitter can't tell the difference between satire and reality

 

[High Voltage]

For those of you who subscribe to BotF - you'll know that if his cap badge is upside-down he's "taking the piss"

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And anyway, it’s spelt Chrimbo.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

good morning from the united kingdom, where liberals on twitter can't tell the difference between satire and reality

to be fair, it is getting harder to tell the difference...

 

[killer b]

to be fair, it is getting harder to tell the difference...

it's not though, and it's really easy to check.

 

[StoneRoad]

I have known of quite a few people who have died of it, including close relations of friends of mine.

I'm tempted, when conspiravaxloons start on that whole "I don't know anyone who's died of it", to say "perhaps you need more friends".

I am so nicking the BiB, TIA existentialist ...

As I have lost a few friends directly to Covid-19 and several more indirectly.
Luckily, no close family so far - of the two or three that have died, one at least was from a severe stroke.

 

[scalyboy]

The barber I regularly go to told me he hasn't been vaccinated and doesn't like the idea, says he will if he absolutely has to (he's from another country and hasn't visited his parents there for 3 years).
He told me he'd had Covid in the summer and that it wasn't too bad "because he has a strong immune system". I wouldn't class him as a loon. His objection was that if people have the vaccine they are then reliant on a booster every year as the vaccine hasn't enabled their immune system to fight it off naturally. ( I don't see the problem myself, no different from an annual flu jab as far as I'm concerned)

I said that I don't think it's as simple as whether a person has a strong immune system or not, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing young people and children being hospitalised and in some cases dying. Often with no co-morbidities. But I didn't know how to counter-argue until I saw this the other day. This guy was 42, super-fit, done triathlons, mountain climbing etc, but still died from Covid

Elsewhere I read that some specialists believe there is be a genetic factor that predisposes a certain sub-sector of people to be severely impacted by Covid infection, even if they are super-healthy, while others may not do as badly.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

None of this is true.

"And besides, viruses tend to mutate in ways that make them less dangerous but more transmissable,":

Indeed, scientists tell Salon that from an evolutionary perspective, mutating to become more deadly is not a successful evolutionary strategy for viruses in general. If a virus kills its hosts, how can it spread?

This is why Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease doctor and professor of medicine at the University of California–San Francisco, told Salon viruses usually evolve to become more transmissible — not more lethal.

"so mutation is not actually a bad thing in the long run":

It is time to reshape our conception of mutations. Mutations are not indicative of outlandish and devastating new viral characteristics. Instead, they can inform our understanding of emerging outbreaks. [...] Rather than fearing mutation, perhaps it is now time to embrace it.

"Eventually we will have to learn to live with a less dangerous variant as the dominant strain, as we do with the flu."

After infecting an estimated 500 million people worldwide in 1918 and 1919 (a third of the global population), the H1N1 strain that caused the Spanish flu receded into the background and stuck around as the regular seasonal flu. [...] “We’re still living in what I would call the ‘1918 pandemic era’ 102 years later” says Taubenberger, “and I don’t know how long it will last.”

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The barber I regularly go to told me he hasn't been vaccinated and doesn't like the idea, says he will if he absolutely has to (he's from another country and hasn't visited his parents there for 3 years).
He told me he'd had Covid in the summer and that it wasn't too bad "because he has a strong immune system". I wouldn't class him as a loon. His objection was that if people have the vaccine they are then reliant on a booster every year as the vaccine hasn't enabled their immune system to fight it off naturally. ( I don't see the problem myself, no different from an annual flu jab as far as I'm concerned)

I said that I don't think it's as simple as whether a person has a strong immune system or not, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing young people and children being hospitalised and in some cases dying. Often with no co-morbidities. But I didn't know how to counter-argue until I saw this the other day. This guy was 42, super-fit, done triathlons, mountain climbing etc, but still died from Covid

Elsewhere I read that some specialists believe there is be a genetic factor that predisposes a certain sub-sector of people to be severely impacted by Covid infection, even if they are super-healthy, while others may not do as badly.

He has to wear a mask though. So go in and crow about it.

Face masks will be compulsory by law in hairdressers - but not pubs or bars

More details are emerging about England's new Covid Plan B rules to fight the Omicron variant of the virus - with banks, post offices, shops, public transport and hairdressers all having compulsory face coverings from Tuesday

www.google.co.uk

 

[existentialist]

"And besides, viruses tend to mutate in ways that make them less dangerous but more transmissable,":



"so mutation is not actually a bad thing in the long run":



"Eventually we will have to learn to live with a less dangerous variant as the dominant strain, as we do with the flu."

I really, really don't think you get it.

 

[Griff]

How fear fuels the vaccine wars

Interesting to hear people's views on this. Well balanced in my opinion of course, and sums up my thoughts on where we are. Hopefully it can be read and not denounced as 'tin-foil' loonery.

Altough reading SpineyNorman's CCP maturbationary thoughts above, it may be in the wrong thread.

 

[elbows]

"And besides, viruses tend to mutate in ways that make them less dangerous but more transmissable,":



"so mutation is not actually a bad thing in the long run":



"Eventually we will have to learn to live with a less dangerous variant as the dominant strain, as we do with the flu."

Plenty of dangerous myths or failure to correctly deduce the implications of increased transmission there.

Also the H1N1 story is missing the fact that H1N1 was largely absent from the human scene for about 20 years prior to 1977 when it reemerged, quite possibly as a result of a lab accident or vaccine accident. Plus H1N1 killed a hell of a lot of people during its long post-pandemic history.

 

[magneze]

How fear fuels the vaccine wars

Interesting to hear people's views on this. Well balanced in my opinion of course, and sums up my thoughts on where we are. Hopefully it can be read and not denounced as 'tin-foil' loonery.

Altough reading SpineyNorman's CCP maturbationary thoughts above, it may be in the wrong thread.

This thread is probably more appropriate: Do you support an Austria-style lockdown of those not fully vaccinated against Covid-19?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I am in favour of a mandate and absolutely would hold people down and force the vaccine into them by the way. Fucking children. I guess that would avoid itwillneverworks scary mind reading judge dread passport app though.

Then you are part of the problem. Attitudes like yours increase vaccine hesitancy. So thanks for making world worse.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Plenty of dangerous myths or failure to correctly deduce the implications of increased transmission there.

Also the H1N1 story is missing the fact that H1N1 was largely absent from the human scene for about 20 years prior to 1977 when it reemerged, quite possibly as a result of a lab accident or vaccine accident. Plus H1N1 killed a hell of a lot of people during its long post-pandemic history.

Well I tried to select mainstream sources. Not that this means they are always right, of course.

What are the dangerous myths in those articles?

 

[elbows]

Well I tried to select mainstream sources. Not that this means they are always right, of course.

What are the dangerous myths in those articles?

There is an article I posted long ago that would help, but I cant find it right now.

Here is a different one for now instead: Viruses can evolve to be more deadly | AP News

One of those articles you linked to is an attempt to bust one myth/assumption but it ends up being overly reassuring and introduces myths of its own. I did support the busting of the myth, caused by public awareness via documentaries etc of the 1918 pandemic wave deadliness patterns, that later versions would be likely to be more deadly, but not if that myth was simply replaced with the opposite myth.

Virologists contradicting each other and developing fixed views that arent necessarily correct is a further complication.

Also the debate gets too easily fixed on the issue of how much more directly deadly a strain may be to an individual. But overall deadliness is hugely affected by things like how well it transmits, eg if its said to be '10 times less deadly' but infects 10 times as many people, you end up with the same sort of number of deaths. Same logic applies for things like escape from prior immunity.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I thought the argument was that coronaviruses mutate to become less deadly rather than all viruses. There’s a few in circulation that cause the common cold.

 

[elbows]

I thought the argument was that coronaviruses mutate to become less deadly rather than all viruses. There’s a few in circulation that cause the common cold.

No, its just people applying the broader logic to coronaviruses because thats where the current interest is.

And we have to consider that 'deadliness' is actually all about human perception of deadliness. Which is largely a numbers game. When a virus is new to the scene and nobody has immunity, well thats what gives pandemics their awful potential in the early years.

And dont just consider how the virus changes over time, but also how the host population changes. And that can happen in many ways, via immunity of various sorts, and also potentially things like a big chunk of the the humans most genetically susceptible to death having already been killed and ending up with a fitness disadvantage in evolutionary terms.

And the common cold still finishes some people off, just in low enough numbers that it doesnt capture the public imagination.

 

[elbows]

Plus the virus doesnt 'care' about anything. Having a fitness advantage is what determines whether that version of the virus will thrive or not. And killing the host doesnt necessarily give it any disadvantage, not so long as it still gets a chance to spread from that host to another host before the original host dies.

Granted there are factors that work in the opposite direction that can confer an advantage - eg a strain that causes no symptoms or hard to recognise symptoms may gain an advantage in terms of more people carrying on with their normal lives for longer and spreading it around in the process. But different people respond differently, even strains considered 'mild' or more likely to lack symptoms will likely give some people bad symptoms and can result in death, so we need to take a step back and water these ideas down a bit rather than looking for simplistic absolutes.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

How fear fuels the vaccine wars

Interesting to hear people's views on this. Well balanced in my opinion of course, and sums up my thoughts on where we are. Hopefully it can be read and not denounced as 'tin-foil' loonery.

Altough reading SpineyNorman's CCP maturbationary thoughts above, it may be in the wrong thread.

It's not tin foil loonery but it is bog standard Spiked style rightwing libertarianism. The sleight of hand around the 'balance' is based on the 'well Covid isn't actually that bad really' thing which is pretty common in those circles.

 

[[62]]

Seen on a mate's FB page (not posted by mate himself, I hasten to add). At first I thought this was a parody...



But then he went on...



At first I just laughed. Then I looked at his profile (not under his real name - he knows what they're up to! Having said that, neither am I...). It's just post after post of conspiraloon nonsense, from Hillary Clinton being a clone to some kind of new age spiral cult that reminded me of the Call of the Yeti in Mighty Boosh ('The rhythms of the forest flow through me - and they can flow through you too').

It's not that surprising really, that this bollocks appeals to lonely vulnerable people, perhaps with learning difficulties, and makes them feel like they're stronger and more perceptive than everyone else. I bet he has no idea what ivermectin or midazolam are.

 

[2hats]

Plus the virus doesnt 'care' about anything. Having a fitness advantage is what determines whether that version of the virus will thrive or not. And killing the host doesnt necessarily give it any disadvantage, not so long as it still gets a chance to spread from that host to another host before the original host dies.

Indeed. Spot the flaw.

 

[LDC]

How fear fuels the vaccine wars

Interesting to hear people's views on this. Well balanced in my opinion of course, and sums up my thoughts on where we are. Hopefully it can be read and not denounced as 'tin-foil' loonery.

Altough reading SpineyNorman's CCP maturbationary thoughts above, it may be in the wrong thread.

It would be an essay going through it making out why it's bollocks. He'd have been better off with a good editor as well, and what he says isn't original, nor is it as simple as he says it is, and it's also devoid of political analysis beyond 'freedom is good'. It's not 'tinfoil hat loonery' it's more of the 'I alone dare speak the truth against the establishment' kind of Spiked stuff. Fucking boring rather than eye opening.

Also Paul Kingsnorth is a politically dodgy cunt and an egotistical prick, and he's involved in this very dubious project (unless it's another Kingsnorth that looks the same and also writes bollocks) Home - Dark Mountain Nice bunch of comments beneath it which tells you something.

His writing is of the classic 'how to write to make me sound as clever as I think I am, rather than as clever as I actually am' school.

 

[Griff]

Never heard of the bloke, so can't comment on any previous.