Did the US Troops really capture Saddam

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
Of course I have a problem with that - the reason for my post! So Hutchinson's is the last word on the subject for you?

So let's get this straight.

You post up a claim that Saddam's arrest was faked on the strength of some ill-informed bollocks about the date growing season.

When you're shown several links showing how wrong you are, you declare Hutchinson's Encyclopedia to be wrong - while being unable to offer a SINGLE CREDIBLE SOURCE to support your claim!

I'm telling you that the claims about the date growing season are ill-informed bullshit of the highest order, easily disproved by an arbitary search of the net.

But seeing as you have a problem with Hutchinson's, how about
Al-Jazeerah?

 

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
So the jury is still out on this........

No it's not. Only the truly gullible are buying in to this pile of ill-informed conspiracy bollocks about dates proving Saddam's arrest was faked.

PS Ever heard of the hilali date that grows in Iraq? Guess what? It ripens into December.

 

[Lock&Light]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
Free your mind AND your ass will follow!

Does this sort of erudition provide you with a reason to exist?

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Basra/Iraq fruiting periods are March thru august! Check the FAO link.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Originally posted by Lock&Light
Does this sort of erudition provide you with a reason to exist?

Absolutely!

 

[infobomb]

Er - Raisin - it does say that the fruiting periods are then. That's when the fruit grows.

Several pages later, it says that the harvesting period goes on until November or thereabouts; and of course there's the hilali dates thing.

I don't think this is quite the scoop you feel it is.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Dates are also one of Iraq’s most famous food products, and August is the season that the fruits begin to ripen. The season runs through November.

From Eds Stars and Stripes link!

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Originally posted by infobomb
Er - Raisin - it does say that the fruiting periods are then. That's when the fruit grows.

Several pages later, it says that the harvesting period goes on until November or thereabouts; and of course there's the hilali dates thing.

I don't think this is quite the scoop you feel it is.

As I have spent the last hour on dates (!!! the things I do!!!) I can inform you that they turn browny black and if they havent been picked, they fall to the ground or have been eaten by birds by this time.

 

[infobomb]

It also says that turning brown/black depends on the level of rain and relative humidity.

Given that the date season runs until November and that we are aware of dates that grow later than that, I don't see how you have got anywhere near demonstrating that the picture shows, on the balance of probablilities, that Saddam was captured months ago.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

A PR piece about servicemen helping Iraqi tribesmen harvest dates in August

AL HILLAH, Iraq(August 5, 2003) -- As the hot afternoon sun blazed down from an intense, blue sky Aug. 5, military members of the Humanitarian Aid Coordination Center took part in an ancient tradition of the Middle East: the date harvest.

Interesting that the dates were ready to be picked in August. Lieutenant Col. Scott Thomas, Humanitarian Aid Coordination Center operations officer, inches his way up a date palm tree while taking part in the harvest in Al Hillah, Iraq Aug. 5, 2003. Members of the HACC, was invited to take part in the local harvest by the leader of the Taie tribe.

 

[slaar]

Are you still going? It's like arguing with a brick wall.

 

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
As I have spent the last hour on dates (!!! the things I do!!!) I can inform you that they turn browny black and if they havent been picked, they fall to the ground or have been eaten by birds by this time.

That's right. The encyclopedias are wrong and hilali dates don't exist.

I hope I never become so pathetically desperate to believe in conspiracies that I start believing the kind of arse-ignorant 'found on the internet' drivel you apparently swallow with such relish.

Dates ripen in six to seven months, harvested from September through December.

"Whole branches of translucent yellow dates are picked by hand and passed carefully down the tree...in mid-December

(And, of course, climatic conditions can result in date harvests being as late as January: http://tinyurl.com/2422m )

 

[fela fan]

Originally posted by editor
That's right. The encyclopedias are wrong and hilali dates don't exist.

I hope I never become so pathetically desperate to believe in conspiracies that I start believing the kind of arse-ignorant 'found on the internet' drivel you apparently swallow with such relish.

For someone whose life is based on the internet, you sure hate the fucking organ!

I wonder if folk will start putting urban into the same category that you reserve such distaste for?

Why is it that as a resource you have so much hatred for it???

 

[editor]

Originally posted by fela fan
For someone whose life is based on the internet, you sure hate the fucking organ!

I wonder if folk will start putting urban into the same category that you reserve such distaste for?

Why is it that as a resource you have so much hatred for it???

I'm afraid you're talking total bollocks, pal. I don't "hate" the internet (what a truly ridiculous supposition! How could I hate a network of linked computers?!)

I actually find the internet a wonderful resource, but I have supreme trouble with naive conspiracy fans who swallow up a load of unsourced, anonymously-authored twaddle and then parade it as 'fact' without troubling to check the claims being made.

And I have absolutely no problem with the unattributed posts made on u75 by anonymous authors being treated with the same level of caution and scepticism.

Oh, and my life isn't "based on the internet". I exist in the real world.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

The capture of Saddam (if it was indeed him) was pure psyops staged for the American population. If I remain sceptical about the stuff you are willing to swallow whole its because with Bush and friends things are rarely what they seem. While everyone was celebrating SH capture Mr Bush was sneakily signing a stealth bill that expands the Patriot Act and undermines the freedoms of Americans further.

On December 13, when U.S. forces captured Saddam Hussein, President George W. Bush not only celebrated with his national security team, but also pulled out his pen and signed into law a bill that grants the FBI sweeping new powers. A White House spokesperson explained the curious timing of the signing - on a Saturday - as "the President signs bills seven days a week." But the last time Bush signed a bill into law on a Saturday happened more than a year ago - on a spending bill that the President needed to sign, to prevent shuttng down the federal government the following Monday.

http://www.sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10705756&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id=482778&rfi=6

I welcome the capture of SH and would love to see him standing trial before an international tribunal like the World Court and hear him spill the beans on who his backers were exactly and what happened to those pesky wmds.

Also his alleged capture has put an end to the other lie told by the USUK that SH was coordinating attacks on the coalition. How could a man living in such a state of degradation be able to coordinate nationwide resistance from a hole - coincidentally located across the Tigris from his palace, occupied by US troops who were searching for him day and night? Unbelievable! In the meantime, attacks on the coalition continue, so who really is behind the attacks?

Well now he has been captured are USUK going to hand Iraq and its assets back to the Iraqi people and haul Bechtel, Halliburton etc. back to the USA and close their military bases in the region?

Remember Colin Powells address to the UN in which he presented proof that SH had WMD, he was holding a vial of anthrax at the time - we have still not found a spec of anthrax in Iraq. There were a lot of gullible people back then who believed his every word. So forgive me if I remain sceptical about the capture of SH or the new stated aim of the occupiers who say they are in Iraq to establish democracy.

Now that we supposedly have SH, the question that lingers is, was attacking Iraq and killing tens of thousands of people a worthy aim?

 

[infobomb]

Raisin: d'ya think that Saddam stayed in that hole for the last few months?

What was the $750,000 for - insulation?

What about the $800m found in Baghdad?

Do you think that a well-organised guerilla force will simply disintegrate if one of its commanders is captured or killed?

Do you think that a commander of a guerilla force has absolute control over every little thing that the forces do?

Do you credit anyone with the ability to think and operate autonomously apart from Bush, Saddam and yourself?

 

[Raisin D'etre]

PS Ed the info you have linked to is for American dates - so the seasons for fruit picking would be different to those enjoyed by date growers in Iraq.

 

[infobomb]

Iraq is in the northern hemisphere and according to your link, Raisin, the picking time is more or less the same throughout the hemisphere.

 

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
PS Ed the info you have linked to is for American dates - so the seasons for fruit picking would be different to those enjoyed by date growers in Iraq.

Are you some kind of idiot?

This link (which I've already posted) refers to dates grown in Deglet-en-Nour, which is in Tunisia, nowhere near America. So there is no reference whatsoever to American dates.

And seeing as you were probably incapable of comprehending the words on that page too, allow me to requote the salient parts:

As Deglet-en-Nour dates are traditionally sold on the branch, it's up to the most agile members of the family to shin up the trees, first to pollinate them by rubbing male branches onto female ones, then in mid-December for the harvest.

Whole branches of translucent yellow dates are picked by hand and passed carefully down the tree, the fallen and substandard fruit landing on sheets of polythene around the bottom of the trees

PS Tunisia is on the same latitude as Iraq.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

This my last word on dates!

Whole dates are harvested and marketed at three stages of their development. The choice for harvesting at one or another stage depends on varietal characteristics, climatological conditions and market demand.

The three stages are as follows:

Khalal: Physiological mature, hard and crisp, moisture content: 50 - 85 %, bright yellow or red in colour, perishable;

Rutab: Partially browned, reduced moisture content (30 - 45 %), fibres softened, perishable;

Tamar: Colour from amber to dark brown, moisture content further reduced (below 25 % down to 10% and less), texture from soft pliable to fi rm to hard, protected from insects it can be kept without special precautions over longer periods.

In general, when dates reach the Khalal stage, they are regarded to be ready for trading as "fresh" fruit. Dates in Khalal stage are the first in the harvesting season and therefore have aready market. Only date varieties with a low amount of tannin at Khalal stage are suitable for consumption.

Harvesting in the northern hemisphere takes place at the end of summer and in the fall, starting at the end of July (depending on the geographical area), with the harvesting of the Khalal varieties (especially Barhee), and ending in the middle of November.

Edit: The fruiting period for Basra is from March through August, none are given for Tunisia, but for Algeria the fruiting period is later May through October - so can we assume that harvesting would occur later in Tunisia?

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/006/Y4360E/y4360e0d.htm#TopOfPage

And this linkhttp://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache...ruit+dates+harvested+december&hl=en&ie=UTF-8? the sources : “Date Varieties and Suggested Uses” published by Oasis Date Gardens, 59-111 Highway 111, Thermal, CA 92274

“Fruits & Vegetable Facts & Pointers” by R.A. Seelig, published by United Fresh Fruit & Vegetable Association, 101 19thStreet, NW Washington, DC, August, 1974.

“Romance of the Date,” “A Date Glossary: From Barhi to Zahidi” by David Karp published by Los Angeles Times, Food Section H, Wednesday, September 21, 2001.

And this http://www.waitrose.com/food_drink/wfi/ingredients/fruitandvegetables/9901042.asp - was about Tunisian dates!

 

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
This my last word on dates!

So far, you've spectacularly failed to prove that the dates in the Saddam arrest picture prove anything at all, yet still you believe them to be conclusive proof of a huge conspiracy.

And still you seem throughly incapable of understanding that not all dates are harvested at the same time, so that there is nothing remotely unusual about the dates in the image.

But hey! Why bother with pesky details when you've got an anonymously-authored, conspiracy tale found on the internet to get all excited about!

Oh, and just in case you've forgotten in all that excitement, here's what the Hutchinson's Encyclopedia had to say about dates:

"Dates ripen between June and December in Middle Eastern and Mediterranean countries"

Care to prove them wrong?

And why haven't you addressed the awkward issue of the hilali date which grows in Iraq and ripens in December?

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Originally posted by editor
So far, you've spectacularly failed to prove that the dates in the Saddam arrest picture prove anything at all, yet still you believe them to be conclusive proof of a huge conspiracy. [/B]

Coughs. You slammed Dr Jazz as a conspiracy theorist. I asked you to explain the anomaly of the dates (positively my last word on the subject). I have shown through using the UN Food and Agricultural Organisations info that the photo could have been staged earlier, certainly more relevant than Hutchinsons in my opinion. If you want to talk about Hilali dates - hey Im listening. Do your own research! Im sure to be able to impress some one someday with my grasp of middle eastern date cultivation!

 

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
Coughs. You slammed Dr Jazz as a conspiracy theorist.

I've no idea what Dr Jazzz has to do with this debate, although the last time he got all excited about a conspiracy theory found on the internet he made a right royal arse of himself (Soham murders).

Judging by your keenness to proclaim a conspiracy without troubling yourself to research the facts thoroughly beforehand, I'd say that you may well be on course to suffer a similar embarrassment.

Heck, even UFO-conspiracy-tastic sites like rense.com are saying that your dates 'conspiracy' is a complete pile of bollocks!
www.rense.com/general46/bogus.htm

 

[editor]

Oh, and here's another site you may be interested in:
The first of Nizwa's 40-odd date varieties reach full-blown maturity in the early part of summer, with the date season lasting until December. (Oman agriculture)

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Well refresh your memory by looking back to about page 3 OK? I entered this debate because of your rude comments made regarding Dr Jazz. And I am well aware of Rense and others disputing this fact. For me this has been an interesting episode that has brought clarity to the way in which you handle information. You find a source which you think is authoratative, completely indisputable and you refuse to consider any alternative view point. It was the same with Dr Kellys supposed suicide - you based your information on an "award winning" psychiatrist who had PUBLISHED books and claimed without having ever met or talked with Kelly that in his highly esteemed and considered opinion had committed suicide.

It has been an interesting experiment.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Really this is my last word on dates. The hilali dates you refer to and from your source :

Then come the khasab, zabad and khalas oman types, followed by hilali oman in September

 

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
It has been an interesting experiment.

Yes, and from your performance thus far, I can safely conclude that you're the sort of person who gleefully swallows up any old ill-informed, anonymously authored, evidence-free, conspiracy-tastic bullshit that you find on the web, and aren't that bothered about researching your claims first.

You've failed to produce a single shred of evidence to support your 'evidence' about the dates in the Saddam photo, and now you're trying to cover up your embarrassment with a load of piffle about it all being an 'experiment'.

But tell me this: why didn't you bother to research the date growing seasons in Iraq before posting up your claims?

As it is, your keenness to believe the story without checking the basic facts first makes you look like a bit of a conspiracy fruitloop.

 

[editor]

Originally posted by Raisin D'etre
Really this is my last word on dates. The hilali dates you refer to and from your source :

Get this in your stupid head: dates can harvested in December.

I'm fed up posting up links that verify this simple fact, so it's clear you'd rather go around believing that the encyclopedias are wrong and you - whoever you are - are right.

I know which I'm more inclined to believe.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

And why dont you bother reading the information on the pages you link to because then you wouldnt make such as ass out of yourself......

 

[Raisin D'etre]

As usual, you miss the point.