Denormalisation of alcohol

[pbsmooth]

and it's "vinyl" not "vinyls".

 

[Sasaferrato]

Can't imagine sitting in a café or bar in Ireland with just the one coffee for several hours.

You'd be politely asked if you wanted another and shown the door if you didn't.

Very different set up in Japan. Don't know how some of the smaller places manage to stay afloat.

We noticed this in France. The little village near to where we camped had about half a dozen 'pubs'. Quite often on an evening walk, we would pass paces with no customers, and on the way back they still had no customers. We later learned that if the proprietor lived above the business, the whole building was exempt from 'rates'. It may be similar in Japan.

 

[BristolEcho]

Honestly never heard of such a thing in Japan. Not saying to doesn't exist (they have cafes for everything in shibuya)

. . . And this sounds like my ultimate cafe nightmare experience. Imagine going somewhere to chat with friends / relax, with the possibility of some asshat playing his shit music at you always looming.
Only a bell end is going to bring his own LPs to a cafe. . . and bell ends with no self awareness almost certainly listen to the shitest music.e

Right my phone has messed up the formatting here. The below is my response not a quote from Atomic Suplex.

They are definitely a thing in Japan I remember reading interviews with people who go to them and a few artists that I like from there have spoken about them. They are meant to have really high end equipment and I really like listening/sharing music with people so I get the appeal although must be honest I didn't think much of the write up there. I have suggested to my friend we go and he brings his gabber bootleg of In the Air Tonight by Phil Collins.

If you like listening to music and are open minded then potentially its a good way to do that without the pressure of alcohol.

and it's "vinyl" not "vinyls".

I agree that does my head in. I usually just say records anyway.

 

[T & P]

But seriously, the Mediterranean caffe bar model is good. People seem to hang out in those and chat, maybe work on a laptop, read papers, read a book, stay and meet several shifts of friends coming and going. Have a grappa if they want, an espresso if they don’t. Maybe a plate of food. That.

Exactly this. And contrary to the stated aims of the OP, I would myself like to see alcohol further normalised in this country. If the rest of Western Europe manages to permit all kind of establishments where alcoholic drinks are freely available alongside non-alcoholic beverages, including premises where children are often present, and the sky hasn't yet fallen, we should be able to do the same here. From a foreign resident standpoint, I have always viewed this country's laughably overconservative attitude towards many aspects of alcohol licensing, or such draconian measures such as banning minors from areas where alcohol is being served (or even entire venues as the case still is with many some pubs) as conterproductive to the extent that it almost certainly is one of the core reasons for the amount of irresponsible drinking among adults compared with our neighbours in the Continent.

 

[danny la rouge]

including premises where children are often present

I happen to think that’s very important. And I happen to think trends and legislation that attempt to limit or even prevent this are very harmful to society.

 

[Serge Forward]

We noticed this in France. The little village near to where we camped had about half a dozen 'pubs'. Quite often on an evening walk, we would pass paces with no customers, and on the way back they still had no customers. We later learned that if the proprietor lived above the business, the whole building was exempt from 'rates'. It may be similar in Japan.

Mrs Forward's family are from a village in Italy with a population of about 2000, yet they have nine or ten bars!!! A couple are often busy but the rest are usually empty or with one or two people.

 

[Crispy]

WRT Japan: If I understand it properly, there are no planning restrictions on operating a retail/food/drink business from the ground floor of your own home, below a certain sq.m. This accounts for the huge diversity of little shops everywhere. Quite common for the salaryman's wife to basically have a "hobby job" of this kind. ATOMIC SUPLEX may know more,

 

[lazythursday]

Exactly this. And contrary to the stated aims of the OP, I would myself like to see alcohol further normalised in this country. If the rest of Western Europe manages to permit all kind of establishments where alcoholic drinks are freely available alongside non-alcoholic beverages, including premises where children are often present, and the sky hasn't yet fallen, we should be able to do the same here. From a foreign resident standpoint, I have always viewed this country's laughably overconservative attitude towards many aspects of alcohol licensing, or such draconian measures such as banning minors from areas where alcohol is being served (or even entire venues as the case still is with many some pubs) as conterproductive to the extent that it almost certainly is one of the core reasons for the amount of irresponsible drinking among adults compared with our neighbours in the Continent.

I'm not sure about this any more. This was the kind of argument that was made pre the big shake-up of licensing laws under Blair, that if only we liberalised everything we'd become sensible continental drinkers. It really hasn't panned out like that. Can't see there is much of a conservative attitude to alcohol remaining - you can buy it pretty much everywhere, it's constantly promoted at you. People drink alcohol irresponsibly for all sorts of cultural reasons but I don't think that relates to the licensing arrangements whatsoever.

 

[T & P]

I'm not sure about this any more. This was the kind of argument that was made pre the big shake-up of licensing laws under Blair, that if only we liberalised everything we'd become sensible continental drinkers. It really hasn't panned out like that. Can't see there is much of a conservative attitude to alcohol remaining - you can buy it pretty much everywhere, it's constantly promoted at you. People drink alcohol irresponsibly for all sorts of cultural reasons but I don't think that relates to the licensing arrangements whatsoever.

I would agree that the changes in licencing laws haven't changed attitudes to drinking. But at the end of the day they there is still a massive gulf in the licencing of alcohol between the UK and the rest of Europe. The opening hours was one factor. But there are others that remain unchanged; such as alcohol being sold at relatively very few places outside of pubs and (licenced) restaurants. In the Continent it is possible to have an alcoholic drink in such places as some larger supermarkets, and practically everywhere the serves food or drinks even if a small set up. The mental thought process involved in deciding to have an alcoholic drink as part of your day is no different from deciding to have a coffe or soft drink instead. In the UK, for the most part, going for a drink still feels like making a commitment to have a drinking session, however small. Very few people who drink will pop in for a quick half pint and leave immediately after; if you go to the pub, you tend to stay for a bit.

In places like France, Spain, Portugal etc there is no such built-in mentality to make a session of such visits. Much of it, IMO, due to the fact that you are absolutely spoilt for choice to have a tipple should you feel that way everywhere around you and at most times of the day; so you actually don't drink as much when you do pop in for a drink.

 

[krtek a houby]

Much of it due, IMO, to the fact that you are absolutely spoilt for choice to have a topple should you feel that way everywhere around you and at most times of the day.

A topple might be detrimental to the health, mind

 

[lazythursday]

I would agree that the changes in licencing laws haven't changed attitudes to drinking. But at the end of the day they there is still a massive gulf in the licencing of alcohol between the UK and the rest of Europe. The opening hours was one factor. But there are others that remain unchanged; such as alcohol being sold at relatively very few places outside of pubs and (licenced) restaurants. In the Continent it is possible to have an alcoholic drink in such places as some larger supermarkets, and practically everywhere the serves food or drinks even if a small set up. The mental thought process involved in deciding to have an alcoholic drink as part of your day is no different from deciding to have a coffe or soft drink instead. In the UK, for the most part, going for a drink still feels like making a commitment to have a drinking session, however small. Very few people who drink will pop in for a quick half pint and leave immediately after; if you go to the pub, you tend to stay for a bit.

In places like France, Spain, Portugal etc there is no such built-in mentality to make a session of such visits. Much of it, IMO, due to the fact that you are absolutely spoilt for choice to have a tipple should you feel that way everywhere around you and at most times of the day; so you actually don't drink as much when you do pop in for a drink.

You can get booze virtually everywhere now. The cinema, most cafes, pretty much every leisure activity. I can't see that making it more easily accessible in the few places left that don't serve it is going to achieve anything whatsoever.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

If you like listening to music and are open minded then potentially its a good way to do that without the pressure of alcalcohol

I was just saying it sounded like the absolute opposite of what I wanted from meeting up in a cafe.
. . . And they state the only reason there is no booze is because they don't have a licence.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

WRT Japan: If I understand it properly, there are no planning restrictions on operating a retail/food/drink business from the ground floor of your own home, below a certain sq.m. This accounts for the huge diversity of little shops everywhere. Quite common for the salaryman's wife to basically have a "hobby job" of this kind. ATOMIC SUPLEX may know more,

Hummm. I am not an expert. It would certainly explain a few weird little shops in the back streets of my wife's hometown. . . But those don't sell food or booze.
There was a little shop opposite a music venue in yokohama I used to go to that was basically a small convenience store. They would also sell very cheap booze and honemade sushi like it was a pub. Drunks just sitting around. I got the distinct impression this was super shady and definitely not allowed. Any hint of a police man, or anyone offical and they would pack up and bat the drunks away.

 

[danny la rouge]

You can get booze virtually everywhere now. The cinema, most cafes, pretty much every leisure activity. I can't see that making it more easily accessible in the few places left that don't serve it is going to achieve anything whatsoever.

i don’t think that’s the proposal. The point is that making places that serve alcohol adults-only places is harmful and counterproductive. If you want a society with a better attitude towards alcohol, you need to make the places you get it less like hard drinking adult domains, and more like relaxing family spaces.

 

[lazythursday]

i don’t think that’s the proposal. The point is that making places that serve alcohol adults-only places is harmful and counterproductive. If you want a society with a better attitude towards alcohol, you need to make the places you get it less like hard drinking adult domains, and more like relaxing family spaces.

I just think it's an argument that could be made 20 years ago but not now. Alcohol is no longer confined to adult only spaces.

Perhaps the argument had some validity, given alcohol use per person has dropped and young people drink less. But doubt it was a major driver in that.

 

[kabbes]

Places that serve alcohol are adult-only? Somebody needs to tell that to literally every single pub round these parts, which are all permanently chock-full of kids.

 

[danny la rouge]

Places that serve alcohol are adult-only? Somebody needs to tell that to literally every single pub round these parts, which are all permanently chock-full of kids.

I can only speak to Scottish laws concerning pubs, which are puritan, stupid, and counterproductive. Kids aren’t allowed in pubs after 6pm. Even ones that serve food. They should be. And pubs should be required to be not just drinking establishments.

 

[weepiper]

After a certain time they are. Music venues are too, which is a bit of a shit if you've an early teenager who likes live music.

 

[kabbes]

OTOH, I would love to go to a pub that wasn’t full of children shouting and crying and doing all the things that children (quite reasonably) do but I don’t want cutting into my (these days quite expensive) evening out.

 

[danny la rouge]

OTOH, I would love to go to a pub that wasn’t full of children shouting and crying and doing all the things that children (quite reasonably) do but I don’t want cutting into my (these days quite expensive) evening out.

Then go to pubs in Scotland.

 

[xenon]

I like coffee shops. But I would not meet for a social evening in one. Essentially because it takes me about 20 minutes to drink a coffee and then I do not want to have three or four more afterwards.

 

[xenon]

But seriously, the Mediterranean caffe bar model is good. People seem to hang out in those and chat, maybe work on a laptop, read papers, read a book, stay and meet several shifts of friends coming and going. Have a grappa if they want, an espresso if they don’t. Maybe a plate of food. That.

But like ATOMIC SUPLEX says, that’s probably a culture a hundred years in the making. But I suppose it starts somewhere.

I would love this, though would probably still be having a beer there.

 

[Winot]

Honestly never heard of such a thing in Japan. Not saying to doesn't exist (they have cafes for everything in shibuya)

Yes I was in Japan this summer and can confirm there are quite a few listening bars in Shibuya. They all seemed to be evening booze places though.

Me in Record Bar Analog:

 

[xenon]

I would agree that the changes in licencing laws haven't changed attitudes to drinking. But at the end of the day they there is still a massive gulf in the licencing of alcohol between the UK and the rest of Europe. The opening hours was one factor. But there are others that remain unchanged; such as alcohol being sold at relatively very few places outside of pubs and (licenced) restaurants. In the Continent it is possible to have an alcoholic drink in such places as some larger supermarkets, and practically everywhere the serves food or drinks even if a small set up. The mental thought process involved in deciding to have an alcoholic drink as part of your day is no different from deciding to have a coffe or soft drink instead. In the UK, for the most part, going for a drink still feels like making a commitment to have a drinking session, however small. Very few people who drink will pop in for a quick half pint and leave immediately after; if you go to the pub, you tend to stay for a bit.

In places like France, Spain, Portugal etc there is no such built-in mentality to make a session of such visits. Much of it, IMO, due to the fact that you are absolutely spoilt for choice to have a tipple should you feel that way everywhere around you and at most times of the day; so you actually don't drink as much when you do pop in for a drink.

In a small town near Madrid last year I found it amazing that on a Sunday night, around 11 pm, we had at least three places where we could go for a bite to eat and a couple of beers. No one was drunk, there was no deafening music and crowds of standing people Jocelyn at the bar.

 

[danny la rouge]

Jocelyn at the bar.

 

[xenon]

OTOH, I would love to go to a pub that wasn’t full of children shouting and crying and doing all the things that children (quite reasonably) do but I don’t want cutting into my (these days quite expensive) evening out.

Wetherspoons after 8 pm it is then.

 

[xenon]

I know, she gets everywhere…

 

[kabbes]

Then go to pubs in Scotland.

That’s one hell of a stagger home. I’d have to be willing to walk 500 miles and then 500 more.

 

[lazythursday]

I like coffee shops. But I would not meet for a social evening in one. Essentially because it takes me about 20 minutes to drink a coffee and then I do not want to have three or four more afterwards.

Coffee shops do tend to sell more than just coffee.

But if you're not drinking alcohol, social events are just a bit shorter. Sitting around drinking does have a time limit on it without alcohol really.

 

[Funky_monks]

There have been various stages when I haven't been drinking, I live in the sticks so its often because I'm driving. I think once you get used to not drinking in pubs, its fine.

I'd hate to see pubs replaced with coffee shops just because of that, not sure I like coffee shops much, they tend to have much more of an "individualistic" feel, ie you only talk to the person/people you're with whereas pubs seem much more social spaces to me. Also, I like pubs and the tradition of their existence - coffee shops tend to be more soulless if you ask me.

Also, Coffee all tastes the bloody same, its just a case of "Emperor's new clothes"