Denormalisation of alcohol

[krtek a houby]

Don’t implausibly new posters usually wait a little longer before jumping in to resurrect ancient grudges? Just as a matter of etiquette.

You'd think, but the genius reveals himself every time by targeting certain posters, threads and topics.

Usually by call outs, inserted randomly.

He was here a few weeks ago, under a misappropriation of my username, doing the call out trick and liking and replying to his previous incarnation's posts.

Unfortunately, he has a long history of this behaviour. I used to be on his side some years back to an extent but things went dark with weird intrusive PM's and spectacular disruptive meltdowns.

 

[Silas Loom]

How many other animals could be born into any of New York City, the tundras of Siberia or the jungles of the Amazon and thrive either way? It’s pretty much only bugs, humans and animals that depend on humans. And the way humans manage it is via their society and culture, not by being innately programmed to cope.

It’s a given that human societies adapt better to variations in climate and ecology than other mammals. I’m not sure how that helps us address the extent or limits of variability between human societies, and the behavioural quirks exhibited by their members.

If you leave enough humans in the same place for enough time for them to work out what type of cooperation is essential for food, shelter and security, they will eventually start developing religion, jokes, food-related festivals and drug habits. Don’t you find the similarities at least as intriguing as the local variations?

 

[Pickman's model]

Pickman's model , Elpenor , krtek a houby a.k.a.

View attachment 421774

that noel edmonds in the middle? dk the other two.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’ve no truck with bourgeois etiquette. Plus yer man there has been gunning for me since day 3

Do us both a favour and stay out of it.

you could do us all a favour and stfu

 

[Ted Bunting]

you could do us all a favour and stfu

So which one are you then? I’d have you pegged as Barry. You know the one that just keeps on going.

And your two backing dancers here

 

[Pickman's model]

So which one are you then? I’d have you pegged as Barry. You know the one that just keeps on going.

And your two backing dancers here

View attachment 421794

i'm sure you like a good pegging. but that's more one for another forum perhaps.

 

[Ted Bunting]

i'm sure you like a good pegging. but that's more one for another forum perhaps.

Homophobic cunt.

 

[Pickman's model]

Homophobic cunt.

perhaps you could er unpack that, there's nothing homophobic in my post. but it does give us an insight into your sewer of a mind.

 

[maomao]

Thirty percent of my ignore list is now the same person.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thirty percent of my ignore list is now the same person.

do you mean the serial banned returner Jay Park / Ted Bunting?

 

[maomao]

do you mean the serial banned returner Jay Park / Ted Bunting?

Yes. As far as I know, none of the other seven posters on my ignore list are multiple logins.

 

[Ted Bunting]

perhaps you could er unpack that, there's nothing homophobic in my post. but it does give us an insight into your sewer of a mind.

View attachment 421800

My sewer of a mind? You’re insinuating that I enjoy things up my arse - which I might well do but that’s nothing to be used as an insult - you disingenuous, crass, wee cretin.

And you can fuck off maomao you’re another no-mark bully.

 

[kabbes]

If you leave enough humans in the same place for enough time for them to work out what type of cooperation is essential for food, shelter and security, they will eventually start developing religion, jokes, food-related festivals and drug habits. Don’t you find the similarities at least as intriguing as the local variations?

Indeed, I find these things fascinating, which is why I’m doing a PhD in the subject!

 

[editor]

My sewer of a mind? You’re insinuating that I enjoy things up my arse - which I might well do but that’s nothing to be used as an insult - you disingenuous, crass, wee cretin.

And you can fuck off maomao you’re another no-mark bully.

And off you fuck.

 

[Pickman's model]

My sewer of a mind? You’re insinuating that I enjoy things up my arse - which I might well do but that’s nothing to be used as an insult - you disingenuous, crass, wee cretin.

And you can fuck off maomao you’re another no-mark bully

ta ra chuck

 

[Silas Loom]

Indeed, I find these things fascinating, which is why I’m doing a PhD in the subject!

And don’t you find the strength of similarity persuasive enough to accept that the potential for many aspects of human behaviour is innate/hardwired, and therefore must either have conferred some adaptive advantage, or is at least an accidental consequence of some other adaptive quirk?

 

[kabbes]

And don’t you find the strength of similarity persuasive enough to accept that the potential for many aspects of human behaviour is innate/hardwired, and therefore must either have conferred some adaptive advantage, or is at least an accidental consequence of some other adaptive quirk?

There are so many assumptions buried in that statement that to answer it feels like answering the question, “when did you stop beating your wife?” Concepts like “behaviour”, “innate” and “hardwired” (which is a different concept to innate) are not straightforward to pin down, for example. What is a “behaviour” with respect to religion? What is a similarity with respect to that “behaviour”?

So I’ll just say that there are mechanisms by which cultures produce and reproduce themselves, and there are certain structures that tend to be successful as part of those productive and reproductive processes. As such, similarities between societies and between cultures don’t have to be either coincidence or genetic determination. It could just be that societies tend to evolve towards similar successful forms. That’s a horrendous oversimplification too, but it’s a better story than “behaviour is hardwired”.

 

[Silas Loom]

There are so many assumptions buried in that statement that to answer it feels like answering the question, “when did you stop beating your wife?” Concepts like “behaviour”, “innate” and “hardwired” (which is a different concept to innate) are not straightforward to pin down, for example. What is a “behaviour” with respect to religion? What is a similarity with respect to that “behaviour”?

So I’ll just say that there are mechanisms by which cultures produce and reproduce themselves, and there are certain structures that tend to be successful as part of those productive and reproductive processes. As such, similarities don’t have to be either coincidence or genetic determination. It could just be that societies tend to evolve towards similar successful forms. That’s a horrendous oversimplification too, but it’s a better story than “behaviour is hardwired”.

But both convergent evolution and genetic determination rely on success or advantage. And the problem with booze which Diamond is trying to address is how a strong predilection for drink or other drugs is associated with success.

Maybe it’s enough to say that human yearning for altered states of consciousness makes us manipulable, to the benefit of society, or whatever, but Diamond’s strength-signalling theory does just as good a job of proposing an advantage. It’s definitely not enough just to say that we are socialised into liking booze without offering some explanation of why societies would do that.

 

[kabbes]

But both convergent evolution and genetic determination rely on success or advantage. And the problem with booze which Diamond is trying to address is how a strong predilection for drink or other drugs is associated with success.

Maybe it’s enough to say that human yearning for altered states of consciousness makes us manipulable, to the benefit of society, or whatever, but Diamond’s strength-signalling theory does just as good a job of proposing an advantage. It’s definitely not enough just to say that we are socialised into liking booze without offering some explanation of why societies would do that.

The cultural development of alcohol use isn’t something I am that interested in, to be honest. But if it were, I would be far more inclined to follow these kind of routes into understanding the meaning behind it:

Social representation regarding the use of alcoholic beverages by adolescents

Abstract This study evaluated the Social Representations regarding the use of alcoholic...

www.scielo.br

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1359105316666658

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/16066359.2013.806651

Just looking at the abstracts of those three studies already starts to reveal that the complexity of what alcoholic consumption actually means to people within the practices and rituals of their lives heavily transcends simplistic models of behaviour and strength-signalling.

 

[Orang Utan]

This WHO report seems to contradict the anecdotal claims that young people aren't as interested in getting drunk as previous generations:

Great Britain has worst rate of child alcohol consumption in world, report finds

Study by World Health Organization shows more than half of children had drunk alcohol by age 13

www.theguardian.com

 

[kabbes]

This WHO report seems to contradict the anecdotal claims that young people aren't as interested in getting drunk as previous generations:

Great Britain has worst rate of child alcohol consumption in world, report finds

Study by World Health Organization shows more than half of children had drunk alcohol by age 13

www.theguardian.com

Discussed earlier. The WHO report just tells you if a child self-reports as having had at least one drink of alcohol in their life. That is meaningless.

 

[Orang Utan]

Discussed earlier. The WHO report just tells you if a child self-reports as having had at least one life of alcohol in their life. That is meaningless.

Must have missed it skipping through all that Jay Park shite

 

[kabbes]

Must have missed it skipping through all that Jay Park shite

FWIW, I said this:

Yeah, big play of this in the news. But if you asked my 10 year-old nephew if he’s ever had an alcoholic drink, he’d say yes. And this is true, because his parents let him have a sip of their beer in the rare occasions they have a beer. Frankly, I’m surprised that the number of kids that say yes to this question isn’t way higher. I’d certainly had an alcoholic drink by the time I was 11.

 

[danny la rouge]

I rarely drink at all these days. It doesn't seem to mix with long Covid. I can't seem to tolerate it: my symptoms get worse and it just isn't enjoyable.

But recently it's been swirling around my head that maybe I should make a commitment to going tea total. I always used to enjoy a drink and it's the culture I grew up with: socialising means having a drink. But maybe it's not enough to say "my drinking isn't a problem", because for some people the effects really are a problem, and if I believe in society - as I do - maybe it's not enough to think of it as just my business; maybe things would just be better generally if more people decided not to drink at all.

I've not decided yet. But I'm not actually very convinced by the objections I'm making. I think maybe my id is trying to excuse me from the effort.

So, I’ve been avoiding alcohol since then. I had a glass (literally one) of bubbly when I got married. But other than that none.

What I’d like to discuss is normalising sober spaces. I still want to socialise with friends. But the default for people is the pub. Or drinks in the garden. If they have one. I don’t mind other people having a drink if that’s what they need. But society really does have a problem with default alcohol.

I wanted to meet a couple of (men) friends on Thursday afternoon and they ignored my suggestion of coffee and chose a pub. Fine. I had a soft drink. But it ought to feel normal for guys to meet for coffee in a coffee shop. But it apparently doesn’t.

I don’t regret the drinking and drug taking of my youth. I had a great time. They were happy days. But I think it ought to feel OK to not want to do that as well. And still have a laugh. I’m fun sober. I can talk nonsense without a drink.

There’s two sides to this coin. We as a society need to promote moderate drinking, drinking you can do around family and kids, so pubs with food, with kids present like in certain European countries, so hopefully the behaviour doesn’t tip into obnoxious.

But also adults socialising without alcohol as a normal thing not an oddity. Not something that’s difficult to achieve.

What are the sober social spaces where you are? Do normals just avoid them?

 

[kabbes]

I’m not sure it helps answer your question or not, Danny, but in the financial district of London, social encounters pretty much always take place in coffee shops. I’d say that’s a new thing, but I’m pretty sure it’s been common there at least since the 1600s.

 

[lazythursday]

Some of my male friends would (and have) met me in a coffee shop. Others would struggle with the idea. And the problem with coffee places anyway is it's just a daytime thing. In the evening, it's the pub or a restaurant. And pubs, even the ones that cater pretty decently for non-drinkers, are still primarily all about the alcohol - takes up most of the merchandising space etc.
What I'd really like to see are venues that have alcohol, but also coffee, and a whole range of soft drinks, interesting bar snacks, etc and alcohol isn't the dominant thing. Where there are blackboards up listing all sorts of drinks and snacks, not just the fecking craft ale. So fed up of having to crane my neck over the bar to see whether there's anything else in the tiny fridge other than some rancid J2O.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’m not sure it helps answer your question or not, Danny, but in the financial district of London, social encounters pretty much always take place in coffee shops. I’d say that’s a new thing, but I’m pretty sure it’s been common there at least since the 1600s.

Yes, I was aware of the 17th Century coffeehouse. Unfortunately I don’t hang out with Christopher Wren.

 

[HeAthen]

So, I’ve been avoiding alcohol since then. I had a glass (literally one) of bubbly when I got married. But other than that none.

What I’d like to discuss is normalising sober spaces. I still want to socialise with friends. But the default for people is the pub. Or drinks in the garden. If they have one. I don’t mind other people having a drink if that’s what they need. But society really does have a problem with default alcohol.

I wanted to meet a couple of (men) friends on Thursday afternoon and they ignored my suggestion of coffee and chose a pub. Fine. I had a soft drink. But it ought to feel normal for guys to meet for coffee in a coffee shop. But it apparently doesn’t.

I don’t regret the drinking and drug taking of my youth. I had a great time. They were happy days. But I think it ought to feel OK to not want to do that as well. And still have a laugh. I’m fun sober. I can talk nonsense without a drink.

There’s two sides to this coin. We as a society need to promote moderate drinking, drinking you can do around family and kids, so pubs with food, with kids present like in certain European countries, so hopefully the behaviour doesn’t tip into obnoxious.

But also adults socialising without alcohol as a normal thing not an oddity. Not something that’s difficult to achieve.

What are the sober social spaces where you are? Do normals just avoid them?

Do people maybe suggest pubs partly because you are likely to stay in them longer than you would in a cafe/coffee place? I stopped drinking in 2016 after a month in hospital receiving a heart failure diagnosis. I was always a pub person before that and the social element of going to the pub was a big thing for me, as well as enjoying having a drink. I continued going to the pub after I'd stopped drinking because that's where my social circle was. The pandemic put paid to that though, and I'm just not interested in going to the pub anymore. I probably go in one two maybe three times a year now at most. Many friends who still drink have said that it changed a lot for them too and they are less likely to go to the pub now.

 

[BristolEcho]

I think it starts with just normalising meeting up without alcohol being a focus with your friends. I love using substances including alcohol, but I also meet loads of friends just for a walk or a coffee and/or breakfast. A lot of cafes do open later now though they often sell alcohol too.

I agree it is a bit shit and I've tried to move away from meeting friends where alcohol is always the focus. Like we could just meet and have a tea in the back garden. I really like Lazy Thursdays points.

It is ridiculous though I agree and even I still do it. I went for some nice food for my birthday and then afterwards my mate suggested sitting a park as he wanted to avoid the pub due to health issues atm. He didn't mind us drinking but the area we were in doesn't sell much alcohol so we had to walk a bit further out the way just got get a couple of beers. I did laugh, and point out it's probably annoying and he said it's fine, but it did make me question what I was doing. That being said I had 3 really nice beers...

 

[danny la rouge]

Do people maybe suggest pubs partly because you are likely to stay in them longer than you would in a cafe/coffee place?

Aye, maybe. But also I live in Glasgow. It’s the culture. I think going out for coffee (as opposed to popping in somewhere for coffee if you’re out doing something else during the day) is a long way from being acceptable for men here.