Alcohol prices + combatting binge drinking

[Buckaroo]

Years of increasing tax on tobacco has led to massive black market trade, same thing is happening with drink. Most pubs are already flogging cheap black market spirits as brands. Smokers smoke, drinkers drink until they decide to stop or die trying. Tax and prohibition punish the poor and line the pockets of rich criminals. Gin epidemics were caused by abysmal social conditions as much as cheap availability.

 

[barney_pig]

Surely the only people happy with this will be the channel ferry companies. Booze cruise back again!

 

[DotCommunist]

Surely the only people happy with this will be the channel ferry companies. Booze cruise back again!

it never left. Pound for pound the night boats to northern france plus the cheapness of the supermarche make it well worth your time

 

[shagnasty]

Will have to resort to home brew ,and we all know how strong that can be

 

[Corax]

The minimum price is a fucking joke. The only things it'll achieve are political, not anything to do with health or antisocial behaviour.

If someone's a problem drinker, they'll carry on being a problem drinker until they receive effective support to change. A minimum price won't change how much they drink. Instead, it'll do one of two things - increase crime as they find desperate ways to fund their habit, or increase their poverty as they sacrifice other things to pay for the increase. A shitbag political move, and nothing more.

 

[Pickman's model]

Aye it called tax

i don't think that's entirely the case, given that back in the early 90s about a third of the price of a pint went in duty and i'm assured it's much the same now.

 

[Pickman's model]

The minimum price is a fucking joke. The only things it'll achieve are political, not anything to do with health or antisocial behaviour.

If someone's a problem drinker, they'll carry on being a problem drinker until they receive effective support to change. A minimum price won't change how much they drink. Instead, it'll do one of two things - increase crime as they find desperate ways to fund their habit, or increase their poverty as they sacrifice other things to pay for the increase. A shitbag political move, and nothing more.

the latter then the former. but you're making a mistake if you think that all problem drinkers are out of work or poor. a very substantial proportion of them will be in work often in well-paid positions.

 

[JHE]

Aren't these policies of pushing up the price of booze to reduce piss-artistry based on international studies which show that increasing the price does have more or less the desired effect?

I can understand that people don't want booze to be more expensive and of course I agree that it involves unfairness, with the well-off as free as ever to continue boozing and the badly-off penalised, but I don't think it's right to claim that putting the price up significantly will be ineffective at discouraging binge drinking.

Binge drinking is obviously not a preserve of proper alkies. Most of the ugly over-indulgence you can see all over the centres of British towns on a Friday or Saturday night is by young and youngish people who are not (yet) addicted.

It would be good if someone could come up with a way of teaching the British (and assorted others) to drink in a more civilised, moderate way, but I fear we are a lost cause.

Maybe bumping up the price is a sensible public health policy.

 

[Ax^]

And whilst we at it we can discourage young people for sex ..

 

[Pickman's model]

Aren't these policies of pushing up the price of booze to reduce piss-artistry based on international studies which show that increasing the price does have more or less the desired effect?

I can understand that people don't want booze to be more expensive and of course I agree that it involves unfairness, with the well-off as free as ever to continue boozing and the badly-off penalised, but I don't think it's right to claim that putting the price up significantly will be ineffective at discouraging binge drinking.

Binge drinking is obviously not a preserve of proper alkies. Most of the ugly over-indulgence you can see all over the centres of British towns on a Friday or Saturday night is by young and youngish people who are not (yet) addicted.

It would be good if someone could come up with a way of teaching the British (and assorted others) to drink in a more civilised, moderate way, but I fear we are a lost cause.

Maybe bumping up the price is a sensible public health policy.

what's a proper alkie?

 

[Ax^]

And whilst we at it we can discourage young people for sex ..

 

[Pickman's model]

And whilst we at it we can discourage young people for sex ..

i'm not sure what you're driving at here. do you find discouraging young people makes you attractive to them?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No such thing. Petrol for two stroke engines is just ordinary petrol with a little oil added.

I think he means what used to be called three star, which you got a gallon can of, poured your two stroke oil into the can, and then shook, before decanting into your lawnmower/Vespa/generator.

 

[JHE]

what's a proper alkie?

Someone addicted to alcohol and so whose drinking behaviour - at least once they've started - is less voluntary (and so less sensitive to price changes) that that of normal people.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Been looking at some of the studies on this, and they aren't all that persuasive, tbh. Some of the ones I've looked at were pretty biased, I think. Metastudies are what is needed.

One metastudy suggests that alcohol consumption is not totally price inelastic, but is partially, and also:

Beverage elasticities are generally lower for the preferred beverage (beer, spirits, or wine) in a particular market than for the less-preferred beverages, and tend to decrease with increased levels of consumption.

So in the case of the UK, beer will be the most inelastic, and those who drink most will be the most inelastic. No shit sherlock, one might say, but at least it does provide evidence that this policy will be least effective with those it is specifically targeting. People who drink less will be put off more than people who drink more. Wider considerations of other aspects of people's lives - people eating less well due to spending more on alcohol, for instance - are not addressed in any study I can find.

And of course, this policy won't affect anyone on average income or above at all, really, as most will already be buying alcohol above the minimum price. It's pretty hateful stuff. Hate the poor.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I think he means what used to be called three star, which you got a gallon can of, poured your two stroke oil into the can, and then shook, before decanting into your lawnmower/Vespa/generator.

'kin 'ell, even an ancient like me knows that 3 star is called ' super ' these days.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The minimum price is a fucking joke. The only things it'll achieve are political, not anything to do with health or antisocial behaviour.

If someone's a problem drinker, they'll carry on being a problem drinker until they receive effective support to change. A minimum price won't change how much they drink. Instead, it'll do one of two things - increase crime as they find desperate ways to fund their habit, or increase their poverty as they sacrifice other things to pay for the increase. A shitbag political move, and nothing more.

I couldn't agree more. No axe to grind BTW, my normal weekly alcohol intake is zero.

 

[Pickman's model]

Someone addicted to alcohol and so whose drinking behaviour - at least once they've started - is less voluntary (and so less sensitive to price changes) that that of normal people.

And this is based on what?

 

[shagnasty]

Went on a booze cruise to a hypermarket near dunkirk.the stella artois didn't stay on the shelfs long.The french must earn well from the cruises

 

[Buckaroo]

And this is based on what?

It's based on someone who doesn't have a problem with drink or drugs and doesn't live in a place where social policy throws everyone who has problems in with people who cause problems. What the fuck does 'normal people' mean? It means people who aren't vulnerable and skint, people who don't have private medical insurance and natural support networks and all the rest of the shit that protects the rich from the poor. It means anyone but the feckless, the stupid and the deserving poor. Fuck off, stop nagging 'normal' people to death. Just fuck off.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seems to me yer aiming your post at jhe.

It's based on someone who doesn't have a problem with drink or drugs and doesn't live in a place where social policy throws everyone who has problems in with people who cause problems. What the fuck does 'normal people' mean? It means people who aren't vulnerable and skint, people who don't have private medical insurance and natural support networks and all the rest of the shit that protects the rich from the poor. It means anyone but the feckless, the stupid and the deserving poor. Fuck off, stop nagging 'normal' people to death. Just fuck off.

 

[Corax]

the latter then the former.

Of course - didn't mean it to sound like mugging people was the first option. Drink doesn't make people 'turn to crime'. All I mean is that those that already fund their drinking with [insert criminal thing] will just fund the increase with more of [criminal thing].

but you're making a mistake if you think that all problem drinkers are out of work or poor. a very substantial proportion of them will be in work often in well-paid positions.

I agree. But even people in well-paid jobs can end up effectively 'poor', especially if they're a problem drinker. A well-paid job can for some people still leave very little 'disposable' income, once they've subtracted rent of a decent flat, loan and/or student loan repayments maybe, bills, perhaps child maintenance, running a car, and so on. The price rise will just mean that one of these things takes a tumble, or less is spent on food, or the Sky subscription's cancelled (or etc). The one thing it won't do is reduce the amount of alcohol - that'll be the very last thing to go.

 

[Buckaroo]

Seems to me yer aiming your post at jhe.

Yes I was mate, not at you. The 'normal people' thing got me going!

 

[Buckaroo]

Someone addicted to alcohol and so whose drinking behaviour - at least once they've started - is less voluntary (and so less sensitive to price changes) that that of normal people.

Oi JHE! 'Normal people!' I just had a go at Pickman's Model but I meant it for you!

 

[Buckaroo]

Of course - didn't mean it to sound like mugging people was the first option. Drink doesn't make people 'turn to crime'. All I mean is that those that already fund their drinking with [insert criminal thing] will just fund the increase with more of [criminal thing].

I agree. But even people in well-paid jobs can end up effectively 'poor', especially if they're a problem drinker. A well-paid job can for some people still leave very little 'disposable' income, once they've subtracted rent of a decent flat, loan and/or student loan repayments maybe, bills, perhaps child maintenance, running a car, and so on. The price rise will just mean that one of these things takes a tumble, or less is spent on food, or the Sky subscription's cancelled (or etc). The one thing it won't do is reduce the amount of alcohol - that'll be the very last thing to go.

Spot on, a drinker will live day to day and no amount of taxation will stop it. I know this from personal experience, something else will take a tumble for sure.

 

[jakethesnake]

There is one thing to be said for this proposal and that is that it would probably be the end of the white cider market (no bad thing imo). Two litres would cost £6.75 at least.

 

[weltweit]

Spot on, a drinker will live day to day and no amount of taxation will stop it. I know this from personal experience, something else will take a tumble for sure.

As do smokers, until their limit (max price per pack) is reached.

 

[Pickman's model]

As do smokers, until their limit (max price per pack) is reached.

iyo? or have you some evidence for this?

 

[weltweit]

iyo? or have you some evidence for this?

imo based on a sample of "me".... but I expect there is probably evidence out there...

 

[Buckaroo]

As do smokers, until their limit (max price per pack) is reached.

The two often go together but it's easier to smoke within a budget than to smoke and drink within one.