Denormalisation of alcohol

[HeAthen]

Aye, maybe. But also I live in Glasgow. It’s the culture. I think going out for coffee (as opposed to popping in somewhere for coffee if you’re out doing something else during the day) is a long way from being acceptable for men here.

Yeah, you're very probably right and it's not just Glasgow either. It's not something I'd suggest even now I don't drink.

 

[BristolEcho]

Aye, maybe. But also I live in Glasgow. It’s the culture. I think going out for coffee (as opposed to popping in somewhere for coffee if you’re out doing something else during the day) is a long way from being acceptable for men here.

I was going to say I also think I'm a bit younger than you too so maybe people are generally a bit more aware, though I have friends who are all ages.

Even friends that I mainly party with I like to think that if I spoke to them and said I wasn't drinking they'd definitely meet me somewhere else. Important to try and have those conversations assertively if needed.

 

[danny la rouge]

I was going to say I also think I'm a bit younger than you too so maybe people are generally a bit more aware

First of all, fuck you.

But yeah, I think younger people might be moving the right way. Especially maybe my younger daughter’s age cohort. I don’t know if it’s because they’re women or because they’re Zoomers, but they are comfortable going out for coffee, or, I dunno, going to a one off pottery class, things like that. If I suggested that to any of my friends they’d think I wanted to start dating.

 

[lazythursday]

First of all, fuck you.

But yeah, I think younger people might be moving the right way. Especially maybe my younger daughter’s age cohort. I don’t know if it’s because they’re women or because they’re Zoomers, but they are comfortable going out for coffee, or, I dunno, going to a one off pottery class, things like that. If I suggested that to any of my friends they’d think I wanted to start dating.

I know this probably won't be good for you personally, but while I can't think of a single male friend who would jump at a pottery class, lots will go for walks/hikes, and I've got a couple of friends I'll sometimes go to the gym with and then sit and chat in the sauna for ages after. Social stuff that involves fitness in some way is perceived a bit more acceptably male I think (though obviously not aerobics / yoga etc). Quite a few of my friends will to also do something like go together to art galleries / museums if there's a particular exhibition on (though usually involves a trip to pub afterwards to proclaim that it was rubbish in some way...)

 

[redsquirrel]

Aye, maybe. But also I live in Glasgow. It’s the culture. I think going out for coffee (as opposed to popping in somewhere for coffee if you’re out doing something else during the day) is a long way from being acceptable for men here.

Not that useful for you Danny but my favourite local is both a coffee shop and bar, and there does seem to be more places like that opening down here

 

[Hollis]

So, I’ve been avoiding alcohol since then. I had a glass (literally one) of bubbly when I got married. But other than that none.

What I’d like to discuss is normalising sober spaces. I still want to socialise with friends. But the default for people is the pub. Or drinks in the garden. If they have one. I don’t mind other people having a drink if that’s what they need. But society really does have a problem with default alcohol.

I wanted to meet a couple of (men) friends on Thursday afternoon and they ignored my suggestion of coffee and chose a pub. Fine. I had a soft drink. But it ought to feel normal for guys to meet for coffee in a coffee shop. But it apparently doesn’t.

I don’t regret the drinking and drug taking of my youth. I had a great time. They were happy days. But I think it ought to feel OK to not want to do that as well. And still have a laugh. I’m fun sober. I can talk nonsense without a drink.

There’s two sides to this coin. We as a society need to promote moderate drinking, drinking you can do around family and kids, so pubs with food, with kids present like in certain European countries, so hopefully the behaviour doesn’t tip into obnoxious.

But also adults socialising without alcohol as a normal thing not an oddity. Not something that’s difficult to achieve.

What are the sober social spaces where you are? Do normals just avoid them?

I find a related problem as you get into your mid-50s, is even if you still drink you don't necessarily want to go out and have a skin full and then end up spending the next week recovering. I think with blokes doing something as a focus is useful i.e watching or doing sport or similar. I don't think men necessarily do sitting in a cafe just chatting quite so well.. Especially when it really is just social. There needs to be something else going on, or some other reason for being there.

 

[pbsmooth]

I’ve attempted turning pub crawls with lots of booze and not much walking into longer walks with occasional pubs or coffee (or occasional drugs) and that works. Agree my mates would still feel a bit awkward meeting for a coffee.

 

[HeAthen]

First of all, fuck you.

But yeah, I think younger people might be moving the right way. Especially maybe my younger daughter’s age cohort. I don’t know if it’s because they’re women or because they’re Zoomers, but they are comfortable going out for coffee, or, I dunno, going to a one off pottery class, things like that. If I suggested that to any of my friends they’d think I wanted to start dating.

I was out with my wife the other week to go to the theatre and popped into a bar (there is definitely a huge difference between bars and pubs to my mind), and they had a section dedicated to painting. Lods of people sat there with small canvases painting some sort of absract scene. Definitely not something I've seen before. Of course, thats not much help to people looking for non alcohol related places to meet up at but things are definitely changing.

 

[Skinny Ethel]

In my local there seems to be a lot of people sharing swopping shake n vac dust especially in the toilets.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

So, I’ve been avoiding alcohol since then. I had a glass (literally one) of bubbly when I got married. But other than that none.

What I’d like to discuss is normalising sober spaces. I still want to socialise with friends. But the default for people is the pub. Or drinks in the garden. If they have one. I don’t mind other people having a drink if that’s what they need. But society really does have a problem with default alcohol.

I wanted to meet a couple of (men) friends on Thursday afternoon and they ignored my suggestion of coffee and chose a pub. Fine. I had a soft drink. But it ought to feel normal for guys to meet for coffee in a coffee shop. But it apparently doesn’t.

I don’t regret the drinking and drug taking of my youth. I had a great time. They were happy days. But I think it ought to feel OK to not want to do that as well. And still have a laugh. I’m fun sober. I can talk nonsense without a drink.

There’s two sides to this coin. We as a society need to promote moderate drinking, drinking you can do around family and kids, so pubs with food, with kids present like in certain European countries, so hopefully the behaviour doesn’t tip into obnoxious.

But also adults socialising without alcohol as a normal thing not an oddity. Not something that’s difficult to achieve.

What are the sober social spaces where you are? Do normals just avoid them?

I don't drink anymore. I felt the same way you did, but increasingly it doesn't bother me at all. I can go to the pub and drink water. I think it's a shame that culturally the pub was the only place to go when I was growing up, and they didn't even do food back then.
From what I gather from my daughter (17) pubs are less of a thing for the young. She gets bubble tea and talks to friends in cafes for hours on end.
Maybe it's just my age, but I do meet up with friends now without alcohol being the main focus. I don't think I know anyone whose main focus is getting pissed anymore. I think I was probably the last one.

 

[danny la rouge]

In my local there seems to be a lot of people sharing swopping shake n vac dust especially in the toilets.

Well, you’ve got to put the freshness back.

 

[weepiper]

Aye, maybe. But also I live in Glasgow. It’s the culture. I think going out for coffee (as opposed to popping in somewhere for coffee if you’re out doing something else during the day) is a long way from being acceptable for men here.

There's a coffee shop just down the street from my work which functions more like a pub for quite a lot of guys I know. One of my colleagues lives just round the corner and he regularly meets his male pals at this coffee shop, either they'll have been out cycling and they'll stop in for a coffee and cake and a blether afterwards or just other friends who live vaguely nearby and that's where they'll meet for a catch up. I think it's definitely becoming more acceptable in Edinburgh at least

I wonder if there's a sort of guilt at hanging out in a coffee shop for any length of time going on for your friends that don't want to do that. Someone above said there's an expectation that you can sit in a pub for hours, but a cafe is mentally more of a have your meal or your coffee and then leave and clear the space for the next customers, kind of thing.

 

[bellaozzydog]

There's a coffee shop just down the street from my work which functions more like a pub for quite a lot of guys I know. One of my colleagues lives just round the corner and he regularly meets his male pals at this coffee shop, either they'll have been out cycling and they'll stop in for a coffee and cake and a blether afterwards or just other friends who live vaguely nearby and that's where they'll meet for a catch up. I think it's definitely becoming more acceptable in Edinburgh at least

I wonder if there's a sort of guilt at hanging out in a coffee shop for any length of time going on for your friends that don't want to do that. Someone above said there's an expectation that you can sit in a pub for hours, but a cafe is mentally more of a have your meal or your coffee and then leave and clear the space for the next customers, kind of thing.

Definitely I have a sort of taking up space guilty countdown in a cafe.

But I’m keen on cafe catch ups, short and sharp and no distortion of message through pints of booze

Maybe it’s because my drinking is generally limited that I’m finding the effects much stronger but after 3 pints everyone I know who drinks slides in to a repetitive incoherence at ++Decibels

I get the feeling that big regular drinkers start with company because that’s seen as civilised and sociable but quickly become individual units just drinking in the vicinity of each other (I can see myself doing this in earlier times)

Being drunk just doesn’t seem very clever or attractive to me

 

[Dom Traynor]

In NZ it's much easier to get people to go for a coffee than it is a pint to be honest. Which at first I wasn't keen on but now it's great and I really appreciate it.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I wonder if there's a sort of guilt at hanging out in a coffee shop for any length of time going on for your friends that don't want to do that. Someone above said there's an expectation that you can sit in a pub for hours, but a cafe is mentally more of a have your meal or your coffee and then leave and clear the space for the next customers, kind of thing.

Is this a cultural thing too? Even though Japan and the UK have a lot in comparison socially, when it comes to 'hang outs' there is a difference. If you go to a cafe or even a mc donalds, you can be there all day on one purchase of coffee if you fancy. Maybe less so if it is small. Also, pubs as such don't really exist. You go to an izakaiya which serves food and various drinks. You can always just be there to pick at food. There will always be green tea and wot not too. As a kid all I had was beer and maybe peanuts at best. I remember Japanese friends being really blindsided by this in the UK, but seeing their version in practice, it's so clearly a better, far more comfortable social interaction that suits everyone. Trouble is both have been 100s of years in the making.

 

[iona]

In NZ it's much easier to get people to go for a coffee than it is a pint to be honest. Which at first I wasn't keen on but now it's great and I really appreciate it.

Can't remember if it was there or Aus or both, but when I was over that side of the world a couple years ago I definitely remember it being more of a thing to find coffee places that were mostly coffee places but also did food, and maybe sold alcohol or maybe didn't but it wasn't the main thing, and were open till late into the evening.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Can't remember if it was there or Aus or both, but when I was over that side of the world a couple years ago I definitely remember it being more of a thing to find coffee places that were mostly coffee places but also did food, and maybe sold alcohol or maybe didn't but it wasn't the main thing, and were open till late into the evening.

Yes we do have cafe/bars though not as often as in Spain or France.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Is this a cultural thing too? Even though Japan and the UK have a lot in comparison socially, when it comes to 'hang outs' there is a difference. If you go to a cafe or even a mc donalds, you can be there all day on one purchase of coffee if you fancy. Maybe less so if it is small. Also, pubs as such don't really exist. You go to an izakaiya which serves food and various drinks. You can always just be there to pick at food. There will always be green tea and wot not too. As a kid all I had was beer and maybe peanuts at best. I remember Japanese friends being really blindsided by this in the UK, but seeing their version in practice, it's so clearly a better, far more comfortable social interaction that suits everyone. Trouble is both have been 100s of years in the making.

We have that as well, my local high street is all Chinese and Korean, and my missus (who is Filipino but obsessed with all things Korean) hangs out with her mates with bubble tea and one little matcha snack for hours gossiping.

 

[iona]

Yes we do have cafe/bars though not as often as in Spain or France.

The places I'm thinking of were more like proper Coffee Places for fussy coffee wankers ( ) but maybe that's just enough of a thing over there that even generic cafe/bar type places can be like that

 

[Dom Traynor]

The places I'm thinking of were more like proper Coffee Places for fussy coffee wankers ( ) but maybe that's just enough of a thing over there that even generic cafe/bar type places can be like that

Yes. Lots of coffee wankers here. The coffee is amazing though to be fair. I wasn't really into coffee until I came here.

 

[krtek a houby]

Is this a cultural thing too? Even though Japan and the UK have a lot in comparison socially, when it comes to 'hang outs' there is a difference. If you go to a cafe or even a mc donalds, you can be there all day on one purchase of coffee if you fancy. Maybe less so if it is small. Also, pubs as such don't really exist. You go to an izakaiya which serves food and various drinks. You can always just be there to pick at food. There will always be green tea and wot not too. As a kid all I had was beer and maybe peanuts at best. I remember Japanese friends being really blindsided by this in the UK, but seeing their version in practice, it's so clearly a better, far more comfortable social interaction that suits everyone. Trouble is both have been 100s of years in the making.

Can't imagine sitting in a café or bar in Ireland with just the one coffee for several hours.

You'd be politely asked if you wanted another and shown the door if you didn't.

Very different set up in Japan. Don't know how some of the smaller places manage to stay afloat.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Can't imagine sitting in a café or bar in Ireland with just the one coffee for several hours.

You'd be politely asked if you wanted another and shown the door if you didn't.

Very different set up in Japan. Don't know how some of the smaller places manage to stay afloat.

I think the first time I experienced it was when I went to Mos Burger with some new friends to kill time from a soundcheck (early afternoon) to the gig (evening). I thought we were just going to get some lunch before going elsewhere. Bought one burger and stayed for hours. "do you want another drink?" It was quite alien and uncomfortable for me at the time. Other friends would come in, sit down and chat, leave . . . The language barrier didn't help.
Mcdonalds with all the kids doing their homework on laptops using the wifi. Younger kids on the frees soft play. Almost nobody actually eating. Lovin' it.

 

[krtek a houby]

I think the first time I experienced it was when I went to Mos Burger with some new friends to kill time from a soundcheck (early afternoon) to the gig (evening). I thought we were just going to get some lunch before going elsewhere. Bought one burger and stayed for hours. "do you want another drink?" It was quite alien and uncomfortable for me at the time. Other friends would come in, sit down and chat, leave . . . The language barrier didn't help.
Mcdonalds with all the kids doing their homework on laptops using the wifi. Younger kids on the frees soft play. Almost nobody actually eating. Lovin' it.

It's a bit of a culture shock initially, for sure.

But it can impact on those trying to make a living when small spaces are taken up by punters from hours, with no intention of a refill or secret order.

 

[danny la rouge]

Places for fussy coffee wankers

Yes, those! That’s what I need! Places for fussy coffee wankers to hang out!

 

[danny la rouge]

But seriously, the Mediterranean caffe bar model is good. People seem to hang out in those and chat, maybe work on a laptop, read papers, read a book, stay and meet several shifts of friends coming and going. Have a grappa if they want, an espresso if they don’t. Maybe a plate of food. That.

But like ATOMIC SUPLEX says, that’s probably a culture a hundred years in the making. But I suppose it starts somewhere.

 

[Serge Forward]

When I visit my son in Calgary, there's a proper coffee wanker place called the Roasterie. It's like a real community hub/social meeting place and they have film shows there some evenings. The house blend is very strong. I think my first visit was the only time I almost overdosed on caffeine.

 

[lazythursday]

But seriously, the Mediterranean caffe bar model is good. People seem to hang out in those and chat, maybe work on a laptop, read papers, read a book, stay and meet several shifts of friends coming and going. Have a grappa if they want, an espresso if they don’t. Maybe a plate of food. That.

But like ATOMIC SUPLEX says, that’s probably a culture a hundred years in the making. But I suppose it starts somewhere.

There was a cafe bar just like this in the town I used to live in - it was the main place I hung out, the only thing it lacked was late opening (I think it shut about 8pm on Friday / Saturdays). But then it changed hands and the atmosphere completely changed, it felt much more of a transactional space rather than a social space. So much of this depends on the owners and how they welcome people into the space.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

There was a cafe bar just like this in the town I used to live in - it was the main place I hung out, the only thing it lacked was late opening (I think it shut about 8pm on Friday / Saturdays). But then it changed hands and the atmosphere completely changed, it felt much more of a transactional space rather than a social space. So much of this depends on the owners and how they welcome people into the space.

Yeah we have one locally which we go to quite a bit - we sometimes go there for breakfast, other times we might go for drinks on a Friday evening. It works really well but it's very dependent on the owner being there for very long days. I think that's pretty normal for the little places you get in places like Spain or Italy (he spent a lot of time working in Spain before setting up), it's hard to capture with anywhere bigger.

 

[BristolEcho]

The places I'm thinking of were more like proper Coffee Places for fussy coffee wankers ( ) but maybe that's just enough of a thing over there that even generic cafe/bar type places can be like that

The one downside of meeting people in cafes is they always ask me "do you know any good coffee/cafes" and I haven't got a clue what constitutes a good place beyond if it feels nice to sit in.

There's a listening cafe in Bristol now which I might check out at some point. Bristol's first Japanese-inspired 'listening cafe' opens

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

There's a listening cafe in Bristol now which I might check out at some point. Bristol's first Japanese-inspired 'listening cafe' opens

Honestly never heard of such a thing in Japan. Not saying to doesn't exist (they have cafes for everything in shibuya)

Lonely Mouth features decks where customers are encouraged to bring along their vinyls to jam and share music.

. . . And this sounds like my ultimate cafe nightmare experience. Imagine going somewhere to chat with friends / relax, with the possibility of some asshat playing his shit music at you always looming.
Only a bell end is going to bring his own LPs to a cafe. . . and bell ends with no self awareness almost certainly listen to the shitest music.