Scotland to establish minimum unit price for alcohol

[bimble]

*Utterly idiotic name, 99% of people used their plastic shopping bags more than once, 99% of people use plastic bottles more than once.

Rubbish. What would you suggest as a way to reduce the mad amounts of plastic waste? Maybe a total ban on plastic bags or risk years in prison, like Kenya has just done?

 

[redsquirrel]

Those are the only options are they - regressive taxes or jailing people?

 

[bimble]

I think the 5p charge for bags was a good idea, a start anyway. You think that was a regressive tax. I was asking what if any better ideas you might have.

 

[redsquirrel]

I think the 5p charge for bags was a good idea, a start anyway. You think that was a regressive tax.

Are you claiming that it wasn't a regressive tax? That a flat price increase on goods aren't regressive?

 

[DexterTCN]

Are you going to seriously claim that a flat tax/pricing increase like this doesn't hurt the poor more than the rich?

No...I'm going to suggest that your persistent attempts to force every topic into your own world view limits any possibility of serious discussion.

As I've pointed out, and you've blatantly fucking ignored because it doesn't suit your chance for an argument about neo-liberalism or class war...there are many policies being implemented to assist and aid and give a leg up to 'the poor'. This one is also to try and address some of the problems we have here with drink.

 

[redsquirrel]

Well at least you're not pretending to be a socialist anymore. Nationalism all the way.

Do I think class is an (the) important factor here - of course I do, I'm a communist.

 

[bimble]

Are you claiming that it wasn't a regressive tax? That a flat price increase on goods aren't regressive?

I understand that 5p is a bigger deal to the poor than to the rich (who get 50 bags delivered by ocado and don't think twice about it). I notice in tescos that people are bringing their own bags now, and they weren't before, and I think that is good.
But you seemed to be suggesting you had better ideas / a better idea of how to tackle the plastic problem. I don't, unless something totally draconian like the example above.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I understand that 5p is a bigger deal to the poor than to the rich (who get 50 bags delivered by ocado and don't think twice about it). I notice in tescos that people are bringing their own bags now, and they weren't before, and I think that is good.
But you seemed to be suggesting you had better ideas / a better idea of how to tackle the plastic problem. I don't, unless something totally draconian like the example above.

I don't really see the plastic bag charge as equivalent. The bags cost the shops around a penny each, so previously everyone using their own bags was subsidising those without them. Plus the 5p doesn't go to the shop - it's collected to pay for other stuff. And it is good, morally good, for people to reuse bags as much as possible, which this charge has definitely made a difference with. There is nothing morally bad about wanting to buy cheap alcohol. Plus, of course, it's only 5p a pop - nobody is caused hardship by the 5p charge.

 

[mojo pixy]

No plastic bags for anyone, in any shop.

 

[Pickman's model]

No...I'm going to suggest that your persistent attempts to force every topic into your own world view limits any possibility of serious discussion.

As I've pointed out, and you've blatantly fucking ignored because it doesn't suit your chance for an argument about neo-liberalism or class war...there are many policies being implemented to assist and aid and give a leg up to 'the poor'. This one is also to try and address some of the problems we have here with drink.

And you fell for it

 

[redsquirrel]

But you seemed to think you had better ideas / a better idea of how to tackle the plastic problem. I don't .

No I said that arguing for more and more regressive taxes is a dangerous path to go down.

I don't totally rule out high(er) levels of tax on products that have some degree of social harm attached to them but I think that reaching for them as the first (only) tool is foolish. These are regressive taxes that hurt the poor more and that should not be lost sight of.

Neither should the fact that these measure form part of the gradual shifting of tax provision from progressive forms (like income tax) to regressive forms like VAT or these. That's one of the methods that has been used to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich. And when do you stop - plastics, alcohol, cigarettes, foods? What's next travel, minimum price on all airplane flights? Those low cost short haul flights are the worst (mile for mile) for environmental damage.

 

[bimble]

Agreed littlebabyjesus (wasn't me who brought it up and drew a comparison).

redsquirrel Yes obviously what's needed is more tax from people who can afford it. Especially inheritance tax the obvious one to go for imo. But who will do that and get voted in / stay in power, that I don't know.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I think the 5p charge for bags was a good idea, a start anyway. You think that was a regressive tax. I was asking what if any better ideas you might have.

What it also did was ensure you could actually buy decent bags there, which are more likely to be reused. If I forget mine, I'm still likely to buy a 50p one as they are seriously durable and get used for all sorts of things as well as just shopping.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What it also did was ensure you could actually buy decent bags there, which are more likely to be reused. If I forget mine, I'm still likely to buy a 50p one as they are seriously durable and get used for all sorts of things as well as just shopping.

You buy a 50p one? Superbag.

Agree - Im the same. I reuse as much as possible, but the 10p ones are way more than twice as good as the 5p ones, so I always buy them.

 

[DexterTCN]

Well at least you're not pretending to be a socialist anymore. Nationalism all the way.

Do I think class is an (the) important factor here - of course I do, I'm a communist.

Is nationalist about free prescriptions and education, free travel for the old and nursery places for the young, school meals? Cool, I'll take that.

What would a communist do about a cultural drinking problem that leads to long term stresses on the health service, social services, chronic illnesses, deaths and other stuff?

We started by saying you couldn't buy drink before 10am or after 10pm...same policy. Then we stopped bogof. Same policy.

However if I'm absolutely honest, an element of what you define (in your weird way) as 'nationalism' was involved. You don't know what it is, obviously. But there was.

 

[Celyn]

But that would affect responsible middle class drinkers. It's the poor and feckless that are the problem.

It would be massively politically unpopular among people who vote to increase taxes. Far easier to target those without a voice.

Holyrood doesn't have those tax powers.

 

[planetgeli]

Rubbish.

I see what you did there.

Dexter asked,

What would a communist do about a cultural drinking problem

Attack business. Not allow this predicament to happen in the first place. And if it did, and there is a public health problem because of it (or did that public health problem exist anyway, y'know, because of the shit prospects, shit housing...I'm repeating myself aren't I?), then maybe we'd make sure any more money raised in taxes, er, I mean price rises definitely not aimed at the poor, would go towards paying for this health problem. Like bookies who make hundreds of millions off FOBT but only pay £7million between all of them towards gambling addiction problems. Tax the rich. I call it redistribution of wealth.

 

[redsquirrel]

Is nationalist about free prescriptions and education, free travel for the old and nursery places for the young, school meals? Cool, I'll take that.

Your rejection of class above shows that any trace of socialism you had (never very much) you've throw away. Your posting over the last year shows quite clearly your retreat into nationalism.

What would a communist do about a cultural drinking problem that leads to long term stresses on the health service, social services, chronic illnesses, deaths and other stuff?

First, recognise that this issue, like every issue under capitalism, has a class dimension. Attempt to tackle the root causes of these problems (inequality, the collapse of social institutions), push for increases in progressive taxes to pay for measures could be used to help people. Now maybe you do all that but still come to the conclusion that MUP on alcohol will help communities - ok, there are scottish posters I respect (like weepiper) that are in favour of this measure. But what you shouldn't do is not look at this issue from a class-based perspective.

 

[DexterTCN]

...push for increases in progressive taxes to pay for measures could be used to help people...

Which part of your brain was damaged that stops you understanding Scotland doesn't have those tax powers?

You and your pals are just utterly incapable of taking that in, it's been posted dozens of times.

You've not examined the subject at all. You're only here to loudly proclaim your own beliefs, as in every thread. Can I ask where you are from?

 

[Spymaster]

Your rejection of class above shows that any trace of socialism you had (never very much) you've throw away. Your posting over the last year shows quite clearly your retreat into nationalism.

First, recognise that this issue, like every issue under capitalism, has a class dimension. Attempt to tackle the root causes of these problems (inequality, the collapse of social institutions), push for increases in progressive taxes to pay for measures could be used to help people. Now maybe you do all that but still come to the conclusion that MUP on alcohol will help communities - ok, there are scottish posters I respect (like weepiper) that are in favour of this measure. But what you shouldn't do is not look at this issue from a class-based perspective.

And in the 1000 years between now and them actually electing a functional communist government, do nothing?

 

[redsquirrel]

And in the 1000 years between now and them actually electing a functional communist government, do nothing?

Re-read the penultimate sentence of the post you quoted and post #431.

But the fact that you've reduced the methods of dealing with the social harm alcohol (or whatever good/service) to either applying regressive taxes or "doing nothing" is a perfect example of what I'm criticising - there is no alternative!

Agitating for measures to tackle the root cause of addiction isn't doing nothing. Demanding that the cuts to addiction services already implemented be reversed isn't doing nothing. Trying to help the communities self-organise their own methods of dealing with the issues (like the IWCA did in Oxford re drugs) isn't doing nothing.

 

[redsquirrel]

Which part of your brain was damaged that stops you understanding Scotland doesn't have those tax powers?

You and your pals are just utterly incapable of taking that in, it's been posted dozens of times.?

This debate is wider than just Scotland. These, or similar, measures are being proposed across many countries to a number of goods and services. And while you might be happy to limit yourself to what's currently "possible" (yet again TINA!, better not argue for re-nationalisation of industries either I suppose) I'm not.

But even if we constrict ourselves to Scotland what's stopping the SNP from using this as issue to help drive the demand for greater tax gathering powers.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Are you going to seriously claim that a flat tax/pricing increase like this doesn't hurt the poor more than the rich?

Even if it wasn't against them (and I don't entirely accept that I think there's a nasty class undertone to the whole thing) the poor will feel the effects more than the rich.

The extra profits that come out the increase price go where?

The extra profits go to the retailer. It is a minimum price, not a tax.

A 3l bottle of white cider @ 7.2% alcohol by volume contains 21 units of alcohol, and costs £3.49. That is the problem.

Alcohol is no respecter of class, but it is the less affluent who are drinking the cheap cider.

Scotland has had an alcohol problem for decades. Social life revolved around alcohol, and perhaps the most shameful epithet that could be applied to any man was 'He can't hold his drink', in other words, if unable to hold on to a near lethal load of alcohol, you were a wimp.

I'm not teetotal, but nowadays I don't drink every week. The 100 unit weeks are long behind me, but they went on too long. I was an aggressive drunk, quick tempered and nasty. It cost me friends, it got me a horrible reputation, and eventually, it impacted on my work and my health.

Initially, I was against this, but after a lot of thought, am now in favour. I don't drink anything now that is anything near 50p a unit, most of the Islay malts are closer to £3.00 a unit.

Yep, it is state interference, but something needs to be done about the real problem drinkers. Anything that puts alcohol out of the financial reach of school kids is also good.

 

[redsquirrel]

The extra profits go to the retailer. It is a minimum price, not a tax.

Legal sophistry. If the money went government coffers and was then redirected to retailers would it still not be a tax?

Alcohol is no respecter of class, but it is the less affluent who are drinking the cheap cider.

You've managed to contradict yourself in a single sentence. The social harm alcohols does is very much a class issue.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Over the weekend Channel 4 news had a piece about how plastics were harming sealife, the main (only really) suggestion put forward about how to deal with this issue was to extend the tax on plastic bags to other "one-use"* plastics. So the application of another regressive tax/price increase like this one. And if you don't think there'll be more coming down the road then I've got a bridge to sell you.

I agree that the social harm caused by problem drinking needs to be tackled, I agree that the environmental harm caused by pollution needs to be tackled but applying more and more regressive taxes should not be the way to do that. And accepting them because "they work" and there is no alternative is a dangerous path to go down. After booze plastics, after plastics sugary foods, after foods cigarettes (again), etc etc. Where does it stop?

*Utterly idiotic name, 99% of people used their plastic shopping bags more than once, 99% of people use plastic bottles more than once.

Your figure of 99% of plastic bottles being used more than once is bullshit. Water bottles, perhaps. When last did you see a 2l lemonade bottle being re-used? They're not, they go to landfill. Germany had a deposit on plastic bottles 30 years ago, they have deposits on cans now.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Legal sophistry. If the money went government coffers and was then redirected to retailers would it still not be a tax?

You've managed to contradict yourself in a single sentence. The social harm alcohols does is very much a class issue.

Alcohol abuse in Scotland impacts on all classes, but the less well off drink white cider, rather than merlot. The outcome is exactly the same in terms of damaged livers, but the economic impact of excessive drinking falls most heavily on those who are less well off. I have known a child who couldn't go to school because she had no shoes, the family income went down her mother's throat. This was a classmate of my daughter's, so something I saw for myself.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Alcohol abuse in Scotland impacts on all classes, but the less well off drink white cider, rather than merlot. The outcome is exactly the same in terms of damaged livers, but the economic impact of excessive drinking falls most heavily on those who are less well off. I have known a child who couldn't go to school because she had no shoes, the family income went down her mother's throat. This was a classmate of my daughter's, so something I saw for myself.

This is one of the dangers of this kind of measure - people like this spending even more of their meagre income on drink and even less on their children.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Is nationalist about free prescriptions and education, free travel for the old and nursery places for the young, school meals? Cool, I'll take that.

What would a communist do about a cultural drinking problem that leads to long term stresses on the health service, social services, chronic illnesses, deaths and other stuff?

We started by saying you couldn't buy drink before 10am or after 10pm...same policy. Then we stopped bogof. Same policy.

However if I'm absolutely honest, an element of what you define (in your weird way) as 'nationalism' was involved. You don't know what it is, obviously. But there was.

They put the price up, as happened in the communist USSR.

 

[Sasaferrato]

This is one of the dangers of this kind of measure - people like this spending even more of their meagre income on drink and even less on their children.

What do you suggest? Buckfast on prescription?

 

[DexterTCN]

This debate is wider than just Scotland. These, or similar, measures are being proposed across many countries to a number of goods and services. And while you might be happy to limit yourself to what's currently "possible" (yet again TINA!, better not argue for re-nationalisation of industries either I suppose) I'm not.

But even if we constrict ourselves to Scotland what's stopping the SNP from using this as issue to help drive the demand for greater tax gathering powers.