Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

[Blagsta]

If so many people are misreading the article, maybe the author should re-write it to make it clearer?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well that article confused me. I said as much in my first post on this thread. The bits I think I do understand I disagree with.

I would wager that in every riot there's ever been, unsavoury types have been fairly prominent. That isn't actually saying anything very interesting, beyond the fact that juvenile delinquents, to resurrect an old term that is probably as apt as anything to describe them, are likely to enjoy a good riot. Well dur.

 

[butchersapron]

It's not about the fucking riots.

 

[elbows]

Help me out here, I went a little nutty at times reading the article. Such as at the very end of it, what exactly are they saying here?

It is of course likely that a crushing recession will increase the numbers living in poverty, but the collective conclusions arrived at will also drive a welcome wedge between the working poor and the detritus of what will in time come to be regarded as little more than a failed social experiment.

 

[The39thStep]

If so many people are misreading the article, maybe the author should re-write it to make it clearer?

how is it that others understand it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Help me out here, I went a little nutty at times reading the article. Such as at the very end of it, what exactly are they saying here?

In isolation, that reads like it could have been written by a Tory think-tank looking for a justification to reintroduce the Victorian workhouse.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not about the fucking riots.

But I wanted to make a point about the riots. And smokedout and others are right. These categories are fluid. Many of the people who that article appears to wish to write off are just kids going through a phase. They'll change as they grow up. They'll reach different conclusions about what they want to do and decide to get a job, in many cases. Of course in other cases, they'll drift in and out of jail and lead self-destructive chaotic lives. That's still no reason to write them off, though, or attempt to subdivide them from the rest of humanity.

I found that article, at its root, deeply misanthropic. Describing people, any people, as detritus. ffs.

 

[elbows]

Sod it, Im going to watch some Marmalade Atkins on youtube, will likely learn as much from that as anything else.

 

[butchersapron]

In isolation, that reads like it could have been written by a Tory think-tank looking for a justification to reintroduce the Victorian workhouse.

Are you reading it in isolation? No you're not. You've had people explain over and over. So why respond as if you are?

 

[butchersapron]

But I wanted to make a point about the riots. And smokedout and others are right. These categories are fluid. Many of the people who that article appears to wish to write off are just kids going through a phase. They'll change as they grow up. They'll reach different conclusions about what they want to do and decide to get a job, in many cases. Of course in other cases, they'll drift in and out of jail and lead self-destructive chaotic lives. That's still no reason to write them off, though, or attempt to subdivide them from the rest of humanity.

I found that article, at its root, deeply misanthropic. Describing people, any people, as detritus. ffs.

It's not about the particular kids, it's about the behavior and what it means to political organising. Why is this not going in? Why in so many posts have you not once gone near what the OP is talking about?

 

[elbows]

I asked for the explanation. I didn't read it in isolation, but it still tainted the article for me, it made me wonder if I should be reading between the lines a bit more.

In any case there are more important issues raised than that, so I don't want to derail things. So perhaps someone could help me out with this bit instead:

In a post-industrial world having the ability to confidently define the core working class constituency is a must. Because it is only out of such a process that the political authority to exclude as well as include can emerge.

Has anybody managed to do this very well in recent times, or even a while ago? Any pointers?

 

[1%er]

From what I have read on this board the only political group that has been mentioned as "having gone out to defend their community" is the EDL, is that correct?

 

[butchersapron]

Apols elbows, i was reading backwards and didn't realise it referred to a particular para. I didn't realise LBJ was quoting your stuff.

The bit you pick up on:

It is of course likely that a crushing recession will increase the numbers living in poverty, but the collective conclusions arrived at will also drive a welcome wedge between the working poor and the detritus of what will in time come to be regarded as little more than a failed social experiment.

Sounds mental. Wrong and tactically stupid.

 

[ViolentPanda]

lumpen is clearly a euphemism for black and is therefore inherently racist in its interpretation of the situation.

Lumpen is generally a euphemism for a section of the working class, regardless of their melanin content. Anyone using it to denote "blackness" would be using it out of context and therefore making the people they set out to impress laugh at them instead.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not sure. Didn't they think he was a grass? He did shoot George Cornell, because he called him 'a fat poof'.

Grassing was used as an excuse, but not, IIRC, actually proven, more that he didn't pay sufficient respect to the twins, and did jobs on their territory without sanction.

 

[LLETSA]

Many of the people who that article appears to wish to write off are just kids going through a phase. They'll change as they grow up.

The kind of sentiment expressed at many a liberal middle class 'dinner party.'

The difference being that the article is looking for a way forward for those who have to put up with crime and anti-social behaviour on their doorsteps right now, as opposed to those who live at a far remove from it (and actually have a hard on about the gang culture in many cases.) Ah well.

 

[LLETSA]

lumpen is clearly a euphemism for black and is therefore inherently racist in its interpretation of the situation.

What is it about liberal lefties and the urge to racialise everything?

 

[LLETSA]

So far as I can see the OP shares the same fault as just about all the political/media bullshit about the riots/looting. In that it's based on an almost complete absence of communication with any of those involved in the riots

So how are you 'communicating' with those involved in the riots, Eric?

 

[_angel_]

What is it about liberal lefties and the urge to racialise everything?

Can never tell when Garf is joking tbh. "Bintgate" was comedy gold, whether intentional or unintentional.

 

[LLETSA]

Can never tell when Garf is joking tbh. "Bintgate" was comedy gold, whether intentional or unintentional.

I'm unaware of him as a poster really, but talk about clutching at fucking straws.

 

[love detective]

These categories are fluid. Many of the people who that article appears to wish to write off are just kids going through a phase. They'll change as they grow up. They'll reach different conclusions about what they want to do and decide to get a job, in many cases

What the article is pointing towards is the danger of these 'categories' becoming fixed, i.e. the implications of what happens when those kind of behaviours & attitudes take root through different generations - what happens when people don't 'change as they grow up and reach different conclusions' - what happens when those existing attitudes are transmitted down through generations - what this means for attempts at pro-working class organisation

It's not referring to individual people doing one off things at a certain point in their life then moving on, it's about inter-generational ingrained behaviours & attitudes that have a debilatiting impact on confident pro-working class political organisation

Despite the various references in the article to the danger of these things taken root and becoming ingrained over generations - you appear to be reading this at the simplisitic level of it pointing at a couple of kids in the street playing chappie and then saying they'll soon grow out of it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not referring to individual people doing one off things at a certain point in their life then moving on

I'm not referring to that either.

 

[butchersapron]

In short the social conditions that produce and reproduce that behaviour, and how to break the logjam. Priorities.

 

[love detective]

It's not referring to individual people doing one off things at a certain point in their life then moving on

I'm not referring to that either.

what does this refer to then, if not that?:-

Many of the people who that article appears to wish to write off are just kids going through a phase. They'll change as they grow up

 

[LLETSA]

what does this refer to then, if not that?:-

To say, 'Many of the people who that article appears to wish to write off are just kids going through a phase. They'll change as they grow up,' is irrelevant anyway when you consider that 90% of the problem is what they get up to before they grow out of it and the ones that fail to grow out of it and in many cases actually become worse.

(Edit: why has this post appeared in bold type?)

 

[TopCat]

Well all you IWCA types here, you put this article out a good while back. What do you draw in the way of conclusions and action plans?

 

[ericjarvis]

So how are you 'communicating' with those involved in the riots, Eric?

A couple of conversations in the street and one on a bus. That's all I am prepared to specify.

 

[Joe Reilly]

If so many people are misreading the article, maybe the author should re-write it to make it clearer?

Good idea.

Maybe it can conclude that there is a) no lumpen underclass. B) that there is, but its best not mentioned in polite circles, for reasons of morale; of c) there might well be, but as far was we can see, if the rioting gang members (1in 4 of those arrested thus far) are anything to by, there is nothing to worry about, as they are either sincerly political, or jolly nice fellows once you get to know them.

And even the ones that possibly aren't (such as the gang that a attacked a middle aged Asian couple for their van, with a female accomplice screaming; "Burn them! Burn them!") its probably just a phase (along with the crack-dealing) they are going through?

I'll have a word.

 

[The39thStep]

Don't normaly quote from the Guardian but can this be justified as necessary collateral damage by misguided allies of the working class?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/social-en.../uk-riots-aftermath-effects-damage?intcmp=239

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't normaly quote from the Guardian but can this be justified as necessary collateral damage by misguided allies of the working class?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/social-en.../uk-riots-aftermath-effects-damage?intcmp=239

no, i don't think anyone can justify quoting from the guardian