I live on the bloody Angell Town Estate, where do you think the looters come from, Mayfair?
Oh the Angell Town Estate. And the looters just happened to be on that bus.
I live on the bloody Angell Town Estate, where do you think the looters come from, Mayfair?
.
Anyone interested in a response to the "working class morale " sapping "lumpens" rioting in LA 50 years ago, one that has arguably more to say about last weeks events than the OP in this thread ever could , check out Guy Debords at the time unattributed response to the Watts riots here :
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/sionline/si/decline.html
That's a very good and interesting article
i dont really think i can go whole-heartedly with the original article tho
they never did though in fairness. id suggest that people are more likely to involve the police these days,
it does point out that is due to a reclassification - rior to NCRS minor injuries were counted as common assault although post NCRS any assault with injury would be categorised as ABH.
it can't be off the charts if there is no statistical precedent, there isnt a chart. id agree it does seem to be a problem at the moment, although in the absence of data its difficult to know how much worse, if at all, it has got. but since its an easily identifiable phenomena that seems a good place to start - how can we address that, can we be more effective than the police, if not is working with the police justified?
see, its getting tricky already
Given the redline analysis fully endorses the IWCA article - how do you reconcile feeling comfortable with the former but not the later?
presentation, style, content, words used etc. The IWCA article seems to go out of it's way to 'label' and condemn with an almost Blairite mesdsianic zeal (ironic given Blair was so hot on presentation and style). The RL article whilst ostensibly arguiing the same points is, imho, better written and as such less affusive in it's seeming desperation to attack and condemn. Surely, as an organisation that has ritually attacked Left groups for the way they write and articulate, amongst other things the IWCA can take things on the chin about their writing and style can't they?
right so we are moving away from a criticism (and disagreement of) the substance & core & essential message of the article itself to the fact that some people don't like the specific language used to express that substance
so it's not the message, it's the way it's delivered?
It should be more polite?
Yeah that's it?
What was that about predictable responses again?!
Given that it's addressing a problem that pretty much everyone knows exists
That's not how I read smokedout's position. I don't think he is denying the existence of a problem so much as wanting a bit more rigour in identifying exactly what kind of problem it is. Anyway, he can speak for himself. That's certainly my position, however.Some of the more recent criticisms on here (smokedout etc..) have appeared to put forward the argument that the problem in fact does not exist or is too 'subjective' to actually define and find out whether it does exist
That's not how I read smokedout's position. I don't think he is denying the existence of a problem so much as wanting a bit more rigour in identifying exactly what kind of problem it is. Anyway, he can speak for himself. That's certainly my position, however.
The comments I was referring to seem fairly straightforward in their meaning to me:-
i think is about personal perception
i'm not convinced there has been a massive increase in what the iwca's piece describes as a lumpen class
In your own words
presentation, style, content, words used etc
Don't start greeting when I just regurgitate what you replied
poorly written perhaps as bait, to elicit the response expected and wanted, so that the writer can moan about it
Who is greeting? I never once mentioned 'polite', what was that about wondering if people are reading the same stuff as you? It is imho badly written, enthusiastically writing about these brutal lumpens in the same damning tones as Blair and Co. To me it doesn't read as well and as politically astute as the RL piece. Politically it's got a better pro-working-class position that some of the hysterical guff written as near paeans to the 'uprising'. But, I don't like the way it's written. Not something you need to get prissy about, but hey ho.
call me a cynic
poorly written perhaps as bait, to elicit the response expected and wanted, so that the writer can moan about it
fair enough - you don't like the way it's written, you don't like the tone of it
that was my original point to you - you don't seem to disagree with the substance, just the way it's expressed - not something you need to go all rolly eyed about
So, is lumpen the new PC term for Chavs then?
Given that it's addressing a problem that pretty much everyone knows exists and that is spoken about by politicians of all hues including, at length, by Ian Duncan Smith, I would have thought that the language used to talk about such a widely recognised phenomenon is absolutely crucial. In fact I don't see how you can separate the language used by the article from the article's message - it is a part of the article's message.
He wouldn't use those words. He would be more likely to talk about things like social cohesion or 'community values'. It's still talking about the same thing, just from a different perspective.Duncan-Smith thinks that lumpen anti social criminal elements are a threat to social solidarity in working class areas? Don't think so chum.
He wouldn't use those words. He would be more likely to talk about things like social cohesion or 'community values'. It's still talking about the same thing, just from a different perspective.