Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
Calm down ladies. Arghh.
Curfew For Men
- Thread starter Orang Utan
- Start date
I think you're getting hysterical there, Clair De Lune.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I think aside from the obvious, that exchange was quite enlightening because Tory Boy openly admits the increase in legislation is because some monuments (the Cenotaph being the example given) aren't monetarily worth very much (but we need to make exceptions because we like them).
"Of course the function of the law is to protect wealth - oops, fuck fuck fuck..."
"Of course the function of the law is to protect wealth - oops, fuck fuck fuck..."
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
Just my feeling on why it's so important to share our stories but how incredibly hard it can be to do so. Still shaking now tbf. 
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Fair play Clair De Lune your story about the car was proper scary, so glad you had your wits about you!
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
Thanks mr.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Thanks campanula agree with all you say, you put it well.
Yes I recall going on RECLAIM THE NIGHT MARCHES in the early 80s - after the police told women to stay home when the 'yorkshire ripper' was at large. I was furious. Why was I told to stay home when I wasn't the dangerous one? Really angry that predatory male behaviour was considered so normal and acceptable that it was considered womens fault for allowing it to happen. Really saddened to hear from my younger female relatives that they get approached, followed, groped, harrassed just the same now. There has always been an unofficial curfew on women, public space still isn't our space.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
I think maybe this thing about being afraid to walk along the street is a misnomer, or a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation. (At least in part. I’m not minimising or dismissing the tangibleand identifiable fears that plenty of us experience when walking on the street)
I think maybe it’s PTSD.
Maybe it’s the trauma of what has happened to us over the years of our life, and knowing that every other woman is also objectified, dismissed, disrespected, and abused, verbally, emotionally, psychically, sexually, physically, financially, politically.
Women who have been assaulted, who have been attacked, who have escaped abduction, been goosed and pinched and pummeled and mauled and groped, been rubbed up against, been gripped and pawed and stared at and hissed at and sneered at and invited to sit on faces or choke on a strangers cock, verbally abused and insulted if we decline the invitation or deflect the advances, these women are carrying trauma.
We've been experiencing all this and more since we were, like, ten years old, right up into our fifties (these are my parameter ages, so far), on buses and in pubs and parks and on the escalator, the school playground, in church, on trains, in taxis, and in clubs and restaurants, when we’re alone or with friends, when our boyfriend/girlfriend goes to the bar, or while reading a book on a park bench, at work, in the lift, in the queue for the loo, and at home in our kitchens and lliving rooms by delivery men, repair men, plumbers, and in the dentists chair, the doctors surgery, in our bedroom, by our lovers, uncles, cousins...
We’re all traumatised, to some extent or another. Even if we’ve not been subjected to the worst of it, it has happened to our friends, sisters, daughters, the mothers and sisters of our friends, and our daughters too, our nieces and goddaughters, the children and the nieces of our friends.
When we make a new women friend, we know this is also true for her.
And when we try to talk about it, we shake and shudder, we get jumpy and twitchy, we flinch when the door slams in the wind, or when the dressing gown falls off the hook, or when a stranger gently touches our arm.
So we don’t talk about it, because what’s they point, who will listen, what difference does it make. We don’t need to tell our sisters, because we know we all have the same stories, and we don’t bother telling our brothers because they can’t or won’t understand.
And we try not to think about it, because we can’t talk about it.
We push it down, we turn the volume down so it doesn’t drown out our relationships and our laughter and our connections, so that we can walk down the street and get the bus and go to work and to the shops, the doctor, the pubs, the clubs, get in to taxis and go home to our partner.
But that trauma is in us.
I’m not scared to walk down the street or sit on a park bench, travel by train. I’m not scared to do those things; I’m scared of what has already happened to me, and the way it sits inside me, like an alarm bell that never shuts off.
I know that things are shit for men too, that men are also abused.
This is a deeply unwell situation.
Maybe if women were not abused, men would not be abused either.
I think maybe it’s PTSD.
Maybe it’s the trauma of what has happened to us over the years of our life, and knowing that every other woman is also objectified, dismissed, disrespected, and abused, verbally, emotionally, psychically, sexually, physically, financially, politically.
Women who have been assaulted, who have been attacked, who have escaped abduction, been goosed and pinched and pummeled and mauled and groped, been rubbed up against, been gripped and pawed and stared at and hissed at and sneered at and invited to sit on faces or choke on a strangers cock, verbally abused and insulted if we decline the invitation or deflect the advances, these women are carrying trauma.
We've been experiencing all this and more since we were, like, ten years old, right up into our fifties (these are my parameter ages, so far), on buses and in pubs and parks and on the escalator, the school playground, in church, on trains, in taxis, and in clubs and restaurants, when we’re alone or with friends, when our boyfriend/girlfriend goes to the bar, or while reading a book on a park bench, at work, in the lift, in the queue for the loo, and at home in our kitchens and lliving rooms by delivery men, repair men, plumbers, and in the dentists chair, the doctors surgery, in our bedroom, by our lovers, uncles, cousins...
We’re all traumatised, to some extent or another. Even if we’ve not been subjected to the worst of it, it has happened to our friends, sisters, daughters, the mothers and sisters of our friends, and our daughters too, our nieces and goddaughters, the children and the nieces of our friends.
When we make a new women friend, we know this is also true for her.
And when we try to talk about it, we shake and shudder, we get jumpy and twitchy, we flinch when the door slams in the wind, or when the dressing gown falls off the hook, or when a stranger gently touches our arm.
So we don’t talk about it, because what’s they point, who will listen, what difference does it make. We don’t need to tell our sisters, because we know we all have the same stories, and we don’t bother telling our brothers because they can’t or won’t understand.
And we try not to think about it, because we can’t talk about it.
We push it down, we turn the volume down so it doesn’t drown out our relationships and our laughter and our connections, so that we can walk down the street and get the bus and go to work and to the shops, the doctor, the pubs, the clubs, get in to taxis and go home to our partner.
But that trauma is in us.
I’m not scared to walk down the street or sit on a park bench, travel by train. I’m not scared to do those things; I’m scared of what has already happened to me, and the way it sits inside me, like an alarm bell that never shuts off.
I know that things are shit for men too, that men are also abused.
This is a deeply unwell situation.
Maybe if women were not abused, men would not be abused either.
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LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
That's why I feel I owe it to myself and other women to just go out when I need or want to, whether it's dark or not, and go to a pub by myself if I want (another thing that's still commented on, and I've actually made new friends doing this, as people aren't used to seeing a woman sitting alone with a pint, so they invited me to sit with their group). Reclaim the Night is a great concept, so I choose to apply it to my everyday life. Public space is just as much our space as anyone's, we just need to assert our right to use it without apology or permission.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
Yes indeed, the world is still not ours to enjoy with the ease a man does. I wish I knew how we change that honestly. Cos I like plenty of men and their company.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
I refused to stop going out on my own - to walk down the street to be out on my own after dark - it was a practical necessity but it was always a conscious act of defiance on my part. The price being years of self conscious and hyper vigilance. It takes a toll on a person. As SheilaNaGig said like an alarm bell that never shuts off.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Certainly not with the ease that I enjoy it now I'm in my 40's.
<tangent> I think things were a little more violent when I was in my 20's than it is now for most young men, though. </tangent>
Obviously the violence is coming from men in both cases, which echoes SheilaNaGig's last sentence a bit.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Big respect for that. Can understand any woman thinking "fuck it" tbh.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I did the same. I refuse to let fear win and quite often I win over fear. I totally understand why some women are overcome with fear though. I think perhaps that a weird kinda PTSD has caused a numbness in me where I'm like yeah? C'mon then.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
If I'd had the car thing or the club thing happen to me, I think I'd not go out alone for several years without a taser. My heart was in my mouth just reading that.
edit: sorry - after posting this I see you deleted the details on checking back - happy to delete if you want
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Honestly? Fake it till you make it. I was slightly nervous about being out alone after dark when I first left home as a teenager, and being a Brummie I'd been fed a lot of anti-London rhetoric, not least the supposed dangers (including being told I'd definitely get raped because of my big tits
). But I'd left home at 16 because I wanted my independence, and I thought what's the point of growing up if society's still going to infantilise me? And what was the point of feminism if women are still being told what to do? So I said "Fuck you" to all that, and basically followed the example of my older brothers who didn't think twice about going where they wanted, day or night. And I found that London by night was nothing to be scared of, in fact there was so many people around even in the early hours that it's probably safer than a quiet little village. And yes, I've met sexist people but the only two times I was sexually harassed were in broad daylight, which makes the Met's advice somewhat redundant.So if you fancy doing anything, or going anywhere, just do it. You know how when 9/11 and 7/7 happened, the advice was "Don't let the terrorists win?" To me, it's the same with rapists and people who murder women. I won't stop travelling by tube because of religious fundie murderers, and I won't stop going about my perfectly lawful and peaceable activities because of misogynist murderers either. It's all terrorism and all of it needs to be stood up to.
Strength to you all.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Sometime in the 70s a friend of mine was abducted by a fairly well known musician, who bundled her into the car and kept her in his locked flat for three days before she escaped. She was 17.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
I remember reading that book 'Feel the fear and do it anyway'
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I think a lot of that book addresses fears where nothing really bad is going to happen (eg. loads of people having a terrible fear of public speaking etc.). This is a bit more... well, "balls out" is a horribly gendered term for it but hope you know what I mean.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
It's cool DW. All I can say is it was just a small dot in my story. I really can't bare to share every instance I've endured but it started early and it's not over yet. I shared what I did because I think without actual stories we can look at this from a somewhat removed or academic standpoint. But for a lot of us it's not and it is very painful to talk about in a world where we're put under more scrutiny as a victim than our male perpetrator. Remember Brock Turner's swim times for instance.If I'd had the car thing or the club thing happen to me, I think I'd not go out alone for several years without a taser. My heart was in my mouth just reading that.
edit: sorry - after posting this I see you deleted the details on checking back - happy to delete if you want
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Can't recall what the book is about at all - it was 40 years ago. But the phrase feel the fear and do it anyway stayed with me.
edit to add ' first published in 1987 ' Perhaps the phrase stayed with me as it was already my attitude by the time it came out?
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
I had no idea the book was that old. I always associate it with a friend of mine who died a couple of years ago. We shared a flat and I found it shortly before he made some big and fairly scary changes in his life (some of which made me sad). Tangent again, sorry.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
Sorry I missed this earlier. This is so eloquent yet raw. Thanks for sharing it, I hear you and I'm sat here impotently applauding it X
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
I'm so pissed off right now. A woman I follow on Twitter is a support worker and has recently had threats from a male client she's visited alone. These included saying he'd abduct and kill her, as well as complaining in general about how women can't be trusted. She's flagged it with her managers and all they can say is that she needs to have a thick skin because this guy is from a different generation and just doesn't like women. Am I right in thinking that they're legally obliged to log ALL threats, even ones seemingly made in jest? Surely that's their duty under safeguarding laws/lone workers? Every time I've worked in the public sector, this would get him marked as potentially dangerous and staff sent round in pairs! She says she's not so much upset about the threats themselves (although they were bad enough) because this bloke's a notorious attention seeker, but the fact she has to travel home in the dark later and if she's murdered on the way, people will say it's her fault.
Also I was ranting about this to my housemate, and he went on about how we've just got into the habit of reporting every little thing and political correctness is destroying freedom of speech. I reminded him free speech does NOT extend to hate speech or threats of violence and reporting something like this isn't the same as phoning the council to complain about a busker or accusing someone of benefit fraud because you saw them going to an interview dressed to the nines. He said "Why can't she stand up for herself?" I pointed out not everyone feels comfortable doing that, and in this case there's a power imbalance because she's limited in what she can say back to him without losing her job. I mean, on the one hand, I'm all for people standing up for their rights, but there's times we also have to deescalate. If it was me, yes, I'm a naturally argumentative fucker who would say "Fuck you, fuck your threats and fuck this job" and yes, I walked out of my last call centre job because I was sick of the abuse we'd get on the phone and management doing nothing to help us. But many people aren't in a position to do that and need to be protected. I'm stressed for this woman and I don't even know her.
Also I was ranting about this to my housemate, and he went on about how we've just got into the habit of reporting every little thing and political correctness is destroying freedom of speech.
I reminded him free speech does NOT extend to hate speech or threats of violence and reporting something like this isn't the same as phoning the council to complain about a busker or accusing someone of benefit fraud because you saw them going to an interview dressed to the nines. He said "Why can't she stand up for herself?" I pointed out not everyone feels comfortable doing that, and in this case there's a power imbalance because she's limited in what she can say back to him without losing her job. I mean, on the one hand, I'm all for people standing up for their rights, but there's times we also have to deescalate. If it was me, yes, I'm a naturally argumentative fucker who would say "Fuck you, fuck your threats and fuck this job" and yes, I walked out of my last call centre job because I was sick of the abuse we'd get on the phone and management doing nothing to help us. But many people aren't in a position to do that and need to be protected. I'm stressed for this woman and I don't even know her.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
LeytonCatLady I know someone who visited people in their homes as part of their work, their safety was discussed because of an event like the one you describe and it was decided the office would always know who she was visiting and when, and she would check in in between visits to notify that she was ok. The possibility of taking someone else with them wasn't really an option because it was a small office. I think she reserved the right not to visit people with whom she didn't feel safe.
There was a discussion of a panic button, I don't know how far that got though.
There was a discussion of a panic button, I don't know how far that got though.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Thank you, I'll pass that on. She probably knows her options anyway but in her shoes I'd feel better knowing someone was in my corner. Her boss sounds like an irresponsible twat in general even before this - it's the same one who pressured her to come in when she was quarantining because her mum had Covid. So unfortunately it doesn't surprise me they don't give a shit about staff safety.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
As a solution the ideas aren't that great, they could warn that something had happened at call #2 that day but wouldn't be able to get help there until sometime after the event which would likely be too late. I don't really know what the best answer is.
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
LeytonCatLady her employer should have a lone worker policy and the first step in that should be go in pairs from the minute she mentioned it. Care workers are treated like absolute shit by their agencies
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