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Curfew For Men

Red Cat said:
Sure, but I think it's hard to keep in mind both the horror and extremity of this kind of violence, and what it might have in common with other violence, both individual and in groups. There are similarities and differences. When I have worked with children who are violent the quality of lashing out violence and enjoyment of cruelty has been quite different in kind, one isn't, doesn't seem to be, an escalation of the other, in any simple way anyway.
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RIght.
Which is why it’s so important to keep studying this stuff : the subtle differences, the commonality, the factors that set one thing in converse to the other.

But by the time someone gets to adulthood, patterns are set, bridges are burned, habits have gelled.

I’d suggest (based on nothing approaching your insight knowledge experience etc) that by the time they get into adulthood, there’s nothing much to distinguish the wounded lashing out one from the one who enjoys cruelty, at least in the way it is materially experienced by the recipient.

In effect, the psychopathic partner isn't much different to the damaged one who is acting out his own damage.

(Setting aside the ones who murder, I suppose.)



(I realise there are in fact vast differences, and the women involved will be keenly able to know one from the other. But materially, in terms of lashes and smacks amd sums extorted, there’s not much between them. I don’t know what can be done about the malignant narcissist, the psychopath; probably nothing. Tattoo them so other women know to stay the fuck away.



I have a sneaky suspicion that this prick got high on his own supply. I don’t think he was revving uo to become a serial killer. I think he forgot where the line is. Because no one ever told him “you’re over the line pal”. Because he was a nice smily guy, one of the lads, a charmer, one who always aimed for a certain type of women, stayed away from anyone who would ever tell him “you’re a prick”.

I suspect he has a history of sexual assault, date rape, insidious nastiness that he’s always gotten away with. Just like a lot of blokes.

I don’t think he is an extreme outlier; I think he’s shocked by what he did. I think he tripped up, tripped over the line

That’s actually terrifying.




As others (men) have identified on here, by the time a misogynist is openly displaying his hatred and emotional violence, they are necessarily isolated from and shunned by other men who might temper their attitudes.



Women, however, are neither shielded from these men by society or other men, nor able to change or deflect their hatred.
 
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Orang Utan said:
Not sure what we can do about those men then. Giving up on them and working on the next generation is not good enough. So we’ll have to work out how to get through to those unreconstructed dickheads. I am stumped about how to go about this, mind. Am going to be looking out for ideas on this.
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Right now, based on recent experience and observation, I feel like I just don’t want to go near any men at all.

Which is shit, because up until a year or two ago, I have always really loved men and enjoyed them and celebrated them.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
RIght.
Which is why it’s so important to keep studying this stuff : the subtle differences, the commonality, the factors that set one thing in converse to the other.

But by the time someone gets to adulthood, patterns are set, bridges are burned, habits have gelled.

I’d suggest (based on nothing approaching your insight knowledge experience etc) that by the time they get into adulthood, there’s nothing much to distinguish the wounded lashing out one from the one who enjoys cruelty, at least in the way it is materially experienced by the recipient.

In effect, the psychopathic partner isn't much different to the damaged one who is acting out his own damage.

(Setting aside the ones who murder, I suppose.)



(I realise there are in fact vast differences, and the women involved will be keenly able to know one from the other. But materially, in terms of lashes and smacks amd sums extorted, there’s not much between them. I don’t know what can be done about the malignant narcissist, the psychopath; probably nothing. Tattoo them so other women know to stay the fuck away.



I have a sneaky suspicion that this prick got high on his own supply. I don’t think he was revving uo to become a serial killer. I think he forgot where the line is. Because no one ever told him “you’re over the line pal”. Because he was a nice smily guy, one of the lads, a charmer, one who always aimed for certain women, stayed away from anyone who would ever tell him “you’re a prick”.

I suspect he has a history of sexual assault, date rape, insidious nastiness that he’s always gotten away with. Just like a lot of blokes.

I don’t think he is an extreme outlier; I think he’s shocked by what he did. I think he tripped up, tripped over the line

That’s actually terrifying.




As others (men) have identified on here, by the time a misogynist is openly displaying his hatred and emotional violence, they are necessarily isolated from and shunned by other men who might temper their attitudes.



Women, however, are neither shielded from these men by society or other men, nor able to change or deflect their hatred.
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I haven't suggested not studying anything or even that he be considered an outlier, I said it was at an extreme end of a continuum, which it is, even if more common than extremely rare.

You've written a long post but I haven't been well and I can't respond to it. I might come back to it when I can think.
 
Red Cat said:
I haven't suggested not studying anything or even that he be considered an outlier, I said it was at an extreme end of a continuum, which it is, even if more common than extremely rare.

You've written a long post but I haven't been well and I can't respond to it. I might come back to it when I can think.
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I know you’ve not suggested not studying it.
I was agreeing with you saying that we ought to pay attention, study.
And agreeing that this is extreme, although not vanishingly rare.
I don’t think he is an outlier, not really. I think that was the point of my post (which is quite rambling).

No need to respond. Thread is moving quite fast, I think we’re in general agreement anyway.

Hope you feel better very soon.
 
He's obviously an outlier in the loose sense that he's committed a statistically uncommon crime which most people would view as extreme. But I don't think it's a particularly useful way to conceptualise things. We normally talk about outliers when we are talking about data that can be objectively valued and compared. But here we're not, we're talking about subjective judgement. There's no way of saying "murdering a stranger is an extra X points along the y-axis, so here we have an outlier".
 
Rutita1 said:
Stranger abduction/murder accounts for 8% (1 in 12 cases) apparently.
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Difficult to face reading that.

I agree that 8% stranger is higher than I would think. (Its worth noting that includes terrorism too). About 13 women a year. I wonder why we don’t hear about the others :confused:

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Raheem said:
He's obviously an outlier in the loose sense that he's committed a statistically uncommon crime which most people would view as extreme. But I don't think it's a particularly useful way to conceptualise things. We normally talk about outliers when we are talking about data that can be objectively valued and compared. But here we're not, we're talking about subjective judgement. There's no way of saying "murdering a stranger is an extra X points along the y-axis, so here we have an outlier".
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Indeed.

And it’s only the crime of murder that is the bit that’s the outlier. The behaviour was extreme. The subjectivity that underlies that murder is not.

Viewing others as objects to be used to your own advantage. That’s so normal that the whole discipline of economics was built around assuming it applied universally.

Viewing women in particular as objects of sexual gratification. That’s so normal that it’s taken for granted in the mainstream stories of our popular media. It’s not even an outlier to act on this objectification in violent ways, such as sexual assault.

SheilaNaGig is right that this is all around us. If one in three women have experienced attacks, that’s pretty normal. Given its normality, I’m willing to bet that a lot of sexual attacks (as understood by the one in three women that experience them) feature men that probably don’t even remember they did it because that behaviour was so normalised.

You can come up with special systems of internal violence unique to this individual and this would be a totally fair thing to note . Do it well enough and it might even help you understand the specific psychodynamics that led this particular individual to cross this specific line. But I would still say that comprehending the violence starts with empathising with the way we are all subjectified into a system of viewing others as being there for us to take advantage of as best we can. Otherwise, the best you’re ever going to manage is to treat individual murderers after event and maybe a handful before things get that bad.
 
Puddy_Tat said:
:hmm:

wonder exactly how the question was led up to / put, which (as 'sir humphrey' demonstrated at one point in 'yes minister' can get opposite answers to the same question)

YG do have some form for a 'what answer do you want?' approach to whoever's funding any particular poll...
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I did this poll, there wasn't anything leading in the question or the questions leading up to it. I'd guess the numbers are right (I'm surprised by them too).
 
Mind you, I suspect going to clubs on the regular might be something of a minority sport these days. I wonder what the result would be if they were able to give a crossbreak for 'people who actually go to nightclubs'?
 
bloody hell Clair De Lune . neither the angry smiley or the sad one, fuck. And fuck also the fact that i read your testimony and yet again think how lucky i have been to not have been assaulted. As if that were a great prize, which it is but so shouldn't be.
 
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Edie said:
I agree that 8% stranger is higher than I would think. (Its worth noting that includes terrorism too). About 13 women a year. I wonder why we don’t hear about the others :confused:
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my back of a fag packet calculations brings the number down by about 20 (most of those from the Manchester bombing) if you remove terrorist attacks fwiw - but even with that reduction it's still surprisingly high.

We probably don't hear about the others because they're black / poor I'd imagine.
 
Clair De Lune said:
It's the modern version of hysterical. Now we're called too sensitive or emotional. A guy can shout, swear and lose his shit but if we dare sound impassioned we're crazy.
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Yup!
Don't get what Ellie Reeves said that could be considered "emotive" in that clip
 
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