India, Dubai and Saudi Arabia -- all renowned for being great places to be a woman...
Curfew For Men
- Thread starter Orang Utan
- Start date
bimble
floofy
Indian women have done a lot these last couple of years, since a horrific gang rape & murder on public transport that ignited rage all over about the issue of women risking their lives when they walk down the street. Really massive protests, a chain of women holding hands for miles and miles across the country, it’s worth having a read about. Police complicity in sexual violence a big part of the story there too.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
there have at various times been 'womens' safe transport' schemes in the UK - have vague recollections of hearing about one (obviously not something i was involved in either providing or using) in london some time in the 80s, and have found a few archive items for a cardiff based on in the late 80s / early 90s.
it's not for me to say what women may want / consider appropriate here, i'm aware (from a gay male perspective) that there are occasional discussions about where the dividing lines are between safe space / self organisation / ghetto / enforced segregation.
in the case of saudi, my question would be whether women are allowed out at other times / in other spaces. in bits of the USA until the 60s, the black people weren't sitting at the back of the bus by choice...
it's not for me to say what women may want / consider appropriate here, i'm aware (from a gay male perspective) that there are occasional discussions about where the dividing lines are between safe space / self organisation / ghetto / enforced segregation.
in the case of saudi, my question would be whether women are allowed out at other times / in other spaces. in bits of the USA until the 60s, the black people weren't sitting at the back of the bus by choice...
neonwilderness
What would Badgers do?
It might be better if things changed so such arrangements weren't needed.
I'm very sure they are possible in places where women are often segregated away as part of everyday life.
My point is that I don't want them to be possible here -- IMO, that would be an enormous backwards step. Separating women from men is not the solution. The solution is men not harassing and attacking women. FFS.
bimble
floofy
There used to be "ladies only" compartments on trains here too, late 1800s until the 70's. This is not the answer.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
If I could love this comment a hundred times, I would.I'm very sure they are possible in places where women are often segregated away as part of everyday life.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
A constructive conversation about what men can do to stop all this shit:
www.theguardian.com
‘The time for men to step up is right now!’: what all men can do to help end violence against women
Over the past week, women have shared their stories of abuse, harassment and assault. Is it time for men to join the fight to dismantle the culture that allows this violence to flourish? A panel of male experts on masculinity and violence against women explain the vital steps men can take
8ball
Decolonise colons!
A constructive conversation about what men can do to stop all this shit:
‘The time for men to step up is right now!’: what all men can do to help end violence against women
Over the past week, women have shared their stories of abuse, harassment and assault. Is it time for men to join the fight to dismantle the culture that allows this violence to flourish? A panel of male experts on masculinity and violence against women explain the vital steps men can take
It's a big juggernaut to turn around, but good to see mainstream media places saying things like:
"...the thing is, learned behaviour is passive. These attitudes and beliefs about manhood, they’re actively taught. It’s media culture, sports culture, peer culture and porn culture. All these influences teach men certain lessons about manhood and social norms that are produced and reproduced at every level. "
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I am still so furious about the killing of Sarah Everard I am finding it hard to string together coherent sentences on the subject.
How does a man become so perverted they think they can pluck a woman off the streets, kidnap and later kill her and then try to cover their tracks. Who knows what ordeal he put her through in between kidnap and killing. And he obviously thought he could get away with it.
How do such deviant evil individuals emerge? are they born bad? do they learn? Did his behaviour around his police colleagues give cause for concern? Is it true he twice indecently exposed himself earlier that week? Have there been earlier crimes?
How does a man become so perverted they think they can pluck a woman off the streets, kidnap and later kill her and then try to cover their tracks. Who knows what ordeal he put her through in between kidnap and killing. And he obviously thought he could get away with it.
How do such deviant evil individuals emerge? are they born bad? do they learn? Did his behaviour around his police colleagues give cause for concern? Is it true he twice indecently exposed himself earlier that week? Have there been earlier crimes?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
It is all very well saying men must look out for their own, it is true it is men that do these evil acts, but what to look out for? Misogynistic men who are unpleasant about women are not men I chose to spend time with, there have been three over the years whose behaviour I found fairly repellent, I didn't want to spend any more time in their company than was absolutely necessary.
The police didn't know they had a killer within their ranks, as I understand it they authorised him to carry firearms, surely a role where profiling would be of the utmost importance. Yet they didn't know they had a killer in their midst.
The police didn't know they had a killer within their ranks, as I understand it they authorised him to carry firearms, surely a role where profiling would be of the utmost importance. Yet they didn't know they had a killer in their midst.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I can't think of many worse crimes, assuming conviction I think he deserves a whole life sentence. Let him rot in prison, a life for a life.
Other men considering such evil acts need to know they will be caught and they will spend the rest of their lives locked up in prison. Perhaps that might make them think again.
Other men considering such evil acts need to know they will be caught and they will spend the rest of their lives locked up in prison. Perhaps that might make them think again.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
I'm very sure they are possible in places where women are often segregated away as part of everyday life.
You expressed that far more politely than I was going to!
8ball
Decolonise colons!
That’s my difficulty with this - I have no idea whether men who make the odd iffy comment are related to the group that may be capable of acts like this. In the one case that springs to mind most readily, he would have been the most “on message” of all of us, and the women in the group didn’t pick up any vibes or anything. It shook us up a bit to all be so profoundly wrong about something so impactful.
There’s obviously a hierarchy of “making things feel shit and unsafe for women” behaviours that we can and should do something about, but I’m not sure whether it addresses any extreme evil shit like this.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Indeed, I don't get it either, is a builder who wolf whistles at a passing woman on a hierarchy whose end is killing someone? I have no comprehension of a man so perverse they think killing a woman is an acceptable act!
Which would you prefer — to have that comprehension or to not have that comprehension?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I probably would prefer to know, then I might be able to do something about it, but it has to be a lot to get ones head around, so out of the normal run of behaviour as it is. And one might think that if any group of men should know the precursors and tendencies that such a killer might have, it would be the police themselves, yet they seem to have had no idea about this guy.
I’m not talking about “knowing”, which is an abstract, intellectual process. I’m talking about comprehending, which is an empathetic one.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be so sure that fellow officers didn't have doubts that he might be a wrong 'un (even if the official testing didn't indicate that). That's a big part of how this stuff continues; people become emboldened when others turn a blind eye, which happens often for reasons of organisational culture e.g. a misplaced sense of loyalty.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Actually I don't think I am likely to be able to comprehend someone like this killer. Empathy implies putting yourself in someone else's shoes, not sure I can do that here.
elbows
Well-Known Member
We could learn from countries that do better (after first checking that they actually do better rather than just being better at covering up the problem).
We could explore the broken, half-arsed attitudes towards many forms of intervention in this country.
We could explore the extent to which disgusting media entities in this country are the enemy of change.
We could turn the bloody street lights back on.
We could explore the broken, half-arsed attitudes towards many forms of intervention in this country.
We could explore the extent to which disgusting media entities in this country are the enemy of change.
We could turn the bloody street lights back on.
In which case, there is little point trying to take you on that journey, and all you can do is write them off as a monster, which you can feel lucky that you are nothing like. This will achieve nothing but it will help you feel better.
How do you understand such perverse violence?
elbows
Well-Known Member
I suspect that in order to find any real hope with these issues, the same elusive ingredient that I find lacking with most stuff involving humans is probably required.
Fixing power. If we were designing a society, a set of values and beliefs and behaviours and ways to talk about and deal with things, how would we fix issues of power? Cant we come up with something that has workable stuff on that front at its heart, informing every aspect of its design and implementation? Something that continually rebalances, equalises and grounds power in all its forms, in all human relationships, families, institutions and interactions? Something that stops power being concentrated, and stops it being held over one person by another.
Fixing power. If we were designing a society, a set of values and beliefs and behaviours and ways to talk about and deal with things, how would we fix issues of power? Cant we come up with something that has workable stuff on that front at its heart, informing every aspect of its design and implementation? Something that continually rebalances, equalises and grounds power in all its forms, in all human relationships, families, institutions and interactions? Something that stops power being concentrated, and stops it being held over one person by another.
bimble
floofy
Are there fewer street lights now than at some previous time ? Or was this a metaphor.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
There are not enough lights on Clapham Common, but the streets Everard walked in are quite well lit, busy thoroughfares.
bimble
floofy
I see that some people are really campaigning for this, where lights have been turned off for some hours every night to save energy / money.
Example
www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk
it’s not something I could get behind personally but I get why people think it would make them feel safer.
CCTV in parks likewise, not my idea of making things better but that’s what’s on offer, alongside policemen in jeans in clubs.
Example
Call for overnight street lighting to be reinstated in Lincs
"It doesn’t make sense to keep denying local residents the security we deserve"
Sarah Everard: Calls to turn Warwickshire street lights on over safety fears
Chloe Fojtik says she was "touched" by the death of Sarah Everard, adding "everyone should feel safe".
www.bbc.co.uk
it’s not something I could get behind personally but I get why people think it would make them feel safer.
CCTV in parks likewise, not my idea of making things better but that’s what’s on offer, alongside policemen in jeans in clubs.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yeah its an austerity era thing that was also dressed up as being part of dealing with climate change and energy issues. People are obviously more aware of it where its actually been done. Energy is one of the big stories of this century, but I do not like some of the consequences of this policy or the way its been implemented.
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