Curfew For Men

[bimble]

It’s not the dark that is dangerous, obvs.
But these are the quick ‘fix’ responses you’d expect.

 

[Raheem]

CCTV in parks likewise, not my idea of making things better but that’s what’s on offer, alongside policemen in jeans in clubs.

I can't see coppers being sent to clubs and it not ending up being mostly about drugs.

 

[kabbes]

How do you understand such perverse violence?

I’ve tried to describe my own attempts to understand it on a few occasions on this thread.

 

[elbows]

It’s not the dark that is dangerous, obvs.
But these are the quick ‘fix’ responses you’d expect.

Well when urban planning goes wrong there are very real consequences, including various forms of crime and violence. It is certainly true that they are far from the whole of the story, many other rotten things in a society come together to create the situations of violence, intimidation, etc. But I wouldnt want to leave out simple practical aspects just because they are not the root of the problem, such deficits are still enablers. Practical fixes can also be a small but important part of trying to break various hideous cycles of insecurity that sometimes involve especially dangerous feedback loops and set the scene for horror. Also priorities on such simple fronts often say something about the broader priorities of a society, what they value, what they actually care about.

 

[kabbes]

Saying that^^, I am well aware there are very different approaches one could take to trying to understand this kind of violence. From my hazy understanding of your specialty, Red Cat , I think you might come at it from a rather different direction?

 

[Red Cat]

I’ve tried to describe my own attempts to understand it on a few occasions on this thread.

I'm on day three of a migraine, I probably shouldn't have asked the question as I haven't the wherewithal to discuss it.

 

[bimble]

elbows yes, all true. Urban planning & the physical environment does have massive impacts on how life is.
I didn’t know about the street lights issue but from what I see it’s in ‘low crime’ / residential areas that they are turned off for a few hours at night? It’s a bit of a personal one this as my old flat, there was a very bright street lamp 2m from my living room window, on all night, and I fantasised about slingshots a lot. Light pollution has serious negatives in my opinion, more light isn’t a simple good.

 

[kabbes]

I'm on day three of a migraine, I probably shouldn't have asked the question as I haven't the wherewithal to discuss it.

Sounds bad

However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator. If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them. And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.

 

[Cloo]

In a way it's really big picture, long term massive shifts that are needed. To me, it seems there is a profound issue whereby a lot of guys simply don't see women as full human beings worthy of respect, especially women they don't know.

I think to even start changing things we'd need, for example, a massive reduction in objectifying images of women - we're so used to it we don't notice that images of scantily/sexily clad women are fucking everywhere and collectively I think it's a big part of women being taken less seriously in the public sphere. Yes, such images of men exist, but they are far, far less ubiquitous and have no effect on men as a class of human being, whatever Incels might say.

 

[Edie]

I’ve been asking myself this same question, what role the patriarchy plays in rare stranger abduction/murders like this. Is it the end point of a spectrum from wolf whistling onwards? Or does this kind of aberrant, very disturbed behaviour stand alone. A woman or child the target more often just because they are weaker. Is it even in the public domain whether there was a sexual motive? (Rhetorical question).

I stand to be corrected/educated, but were/are these kinds of crimes more prevalent in times/places where gender roles are more defined? Do we know?

 

[elbows]

elbows yes, all true. Urban planning & the physical environment does have massive impacts on how life is.
I didn’t know about the street lights issue but from what I see it’s in ‘low crime’ / residential areas that they are turned off for a few hours at night? It’s a bit of a personal one this as my old flat, there was a very bright street lamp 2m from my living room window, on all night, and I fantasised about slingshots a lot. Light pollution has serious negatives in my opinion, more light isn’t a simple good.

The finally changed the light opposite my house to a modern type a few months ago, and it does an impressive job of focussing the light downwards and for quote a long way along the street. And when looking directly across at it from an upstairs window, the nature of how much light is beaming directly in our direction has completely changed for the better.

 

[kabbes]

In a way it's really big picture, long term massive shifts that are needed. To me, it seems there is a profound issue whereby a lot of guys simply don't see women as full human beings worthy of respect, especially women they don't know.

I think to even start changing things we'd need, for example, a massive reduction in objectifying images of women - we're so used to it we don't notice that images of scantily/sexily clad women are fucking everywhere and collectively I think it's a big part of women being taken less seriously in the public sphere. Yes, such images of men exist, but they are far, far less ubiquitous and have no effect on men as a class of human being, whatever Incels might say.

It’s not just the category “woman” that is objectified. We live in a society that is not just deeply objectifying but actually commodifying — we are encourage to see not just others but ourselves as marketable products. I think this kind of violence is just the very unpleasant tip of a massive iceberg.

 

[8ball]

Sounds bad

However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator. If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them. And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.

LESS UNDERSTANDING, MORE CONDEMNING!!

<sharpens green felt pens>

edit: it’s not just about self-protection, it’s about jostling for position within the ingroup

 

[8ball]

It’s not just the category “woman” that is objectified. We live in a society that is not just deeply objectifying but actually commodifying — we are encourage to vote not just others but ourselves as marketable products. I think this kind of violence is just the very unpleasant tip of a massive iceberg.

My company has a training course on “establishing your personal brand”.

People there just seem to think this is normal.

 

[kabbes]

My company has a training course on “establishing your personal brand”.

People there just seem to think this is normal.

In that case, you’d love this paper

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

If you can’t access it normally, go to Sci-Hub: removing barriers in the way of science and enter the url in there

ETA: I actually meant this one: https:///10.1111/socf.12418
But the one I put up there is good too!

From the second paper, quote your company this from the conclusion:

The question then arises as to the consequences that unfold when workers actually put personal branding discourse to use. Does the use of this discourse result in stable or enduring forms of subjectivity, aligned with market norms? Although our data do not allow us to address this question empirically, we believe the use of personal branding is likely to introduce new sources of tension and contradiction into contemporary economic life (Gershon 2016). Thus, personal branding defines itself as providing a means of empowerment, even as it requires that actors surrender themselves to market demands. Personal branding must also present itself as fostering a labor of discovery—the unearthing of an authentic, preexisting self—rather than simply the forging of a newly fabricated (and thus potentially arbitrary) form of subjectivity (Pagis and Ailon 2017). These tensions seem likely to infuse elements of instability into the labor of personal branding over time. Moreover, the logic of personal branding invites its users to pursue their own economic needs, a stance at odds with the interests (and brands) of their employers (Vallas and Cummins 2015), adding a further source of conflict and instability.

 

[weltweit]

..
However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator. If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them. And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.

I don't agree with your proposition that killers can or should be normalised. By definition they are rare outliers of society, they don't conform to societal norms, by their actions they alienate themselves. That does not in any way mean that they cannot be studied, be understood, be analysed, be evaluated, be learnt from. They will always be a tiny corner of the full range of society, about which many will not want to know, and more will not want to forgive.

 

[kabbes]

I don't agree with your proposition that killers can or should be normalised. By definition they are rare outliers of society, they don't conform to societal norms, by their actions they alienate themselves. That does not in any way mean that they cannot be studied, be understood, be analysed, be evaluated, be learnt from. They will always be a tiny corner of the full range of society, about which many will not want to know, and more will not want to forgive.

Well, good luck with that. Let me know what you learn.

 

[8ball]

In that case, you’d love this paper

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

If you can’t access it normally, go to Sci-Hub: removing barriers in the way of science and enter the url in there

ETA: I actually meant this one: https:///10.1111/socf.12418
But the one I put up there is good too!

From the second paper, quote your company this from the conclusion:

You’d think the final point would be fucking obvious to anyone regardless of market indoctrination (because of it, even). Still they come out with this kind of nonsense after each staff mini-exodus thinking it will foster “engagement”.

Will def give the whole paper a look. Cheers.

 

[Red Cat]

Sounds bad

However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator. If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them. And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.

It's also possible that someone who doesn't want to turn away is intellectually defended against the horror of it. It's a very far end of a continuum to abduct, kill and mutilate someone so that they were only identifiable by their dental records.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Well, good luck with that. Let me know what you learn.

Be fair.
It’s a huge area of research and study.

Speaking personally, I look at stats studies and docs about abusers killers etc in my effort to understand better.

My brother, a doctor of psychology, specialises in this area. There is plenty of background stuff that seems to form patterns, but then when we’re on the ground meetting one person on one night, we don’t a apply those larger metrics to our decision making. Instead we apply what we know from our own personal experience.

I have to admit, right now I’m, like, “bloke = dangerl”
Sorry but.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It's also possible that someone who doesn't want to turn away is intellectually defended against the horror of it. It's a very far end of a continuum to abduct, kill and mutilate someone so that they were only identifiable by their dental records.

But it is a spectrum, a continuum. Isn’t it?

As has been said, you don’t go from nought to this horror in a single step.

He didn’t go from indecent exposure to abduction and murder in a 24/48 hour period.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It is all very well saying men must look out for their own, it is true it is men that do these evil acts, but what to look out for? Misogynistic men who are unpleasant about women are not men I chose to spend time with, there have been three over the years whose behaviour I found fairly repellent, I didn't want to spend any more time in their company than was absolutely necessary.

The police didn't know they had a killer within their ranks, as I understand it they authorised him to carry firearms, surely a role where profiling would be of the utmost importance. Yet they didn't know they had a killer in their midst.

You, men, get to choose. The women these fucks prey on can’t walk away.

It needs to be understood. By men, I mean.
You can choose not to spend time with the dickheads. The women on the receiving end of their abusive behaviour do not have that choice.

That’s my difficulty with this - I have no idea whether men who make the odd iffy comment are related to the group that may be capable of acts like this. In the one case that springs to mind most readily, he would have been the most “on message” of all of us, and the women in the group didn’t pick up any vibes or anything. It shook us up a bit to all be so profoundly wrong about something so impactful.

There’s obviously a hierarchy of “making things feel shit and unsafe for women” behaviours that we can and should do something about, but I’m not sure whether it addresses any extreme evil shit like this.

I would put money on the idea that Couzens was given various free passes over the years; had the wit to test boundaries, learn how to sail close to the wind without putting the wind up others, he was learning how to pass., and he did that by getting away with minor sins and transmissions over a period of time.

IMO.

I probably would prefer to know, then I might be able to do something about it, but it has to be a lot to get ones head around, so out of the normal run of behaviour as it is. And one might think that if any group of men should know the precursors and tendencies that such a killer might have, it would be the police themselves, yet they seem to have had no idea about this guy.

I bet they fucking did though.

I bet they’re comparing notes now.

I see that some people are really campaigning for this, where lights have been turned off for some hours every night to save energy / money.
Example

Call for overnight street lighting to be reinstated in Lincs

"It doesn’t make sense to keep denying local residents the security we deserve"

www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk

Sarah Everard: Calls to turn Warwickshire street lights on over safety fears

Chloe Fojtik says she was "touched" by the death of Sarah Everard, adding "everyone should feel safe".

www.bbc.co.uk

it’s not something I could get behind personally but I get why people think it would make them feel safer.

CCTV in parks likewise, not my idea of making things better but that’s what’s on offer, alongside policemen in jeans in clubs.

I really don’t want that s to lead to more surveillance though...

The change has to come from the other end, underneath.

 

[Red Cat]

But it is a spectrum, a continuum. Isn’t it?

As has been said, you don’t go from nought to this horror in a single step.

He didn’t go from indecent exposure to abduction and murder in a 24/48 hour period.

Sure, but I think it's hard to keep in mind both the horror and extremity of this kind of violence, and what it might have in common with other violence, both individual and in groups. There are similarities and differences. When I have worked with children who are violent the quality of lashing out violence and enjoyment of cruelty has been quite different in kind, one isn't, doesn't seem to be, an escalation of the other, in any simple way anyway.

 

[Orang Utan]

You, men, get to choose. The women these fucks prey on can’t walk away.

It needs to be understood. By men, I mean.
You can choose not to spend time with the dickheads. The women on the receiving end of their abusive behaviour do not have that choice.

Not sure what we can do about those men then. Giving up on them and working on the next generation is not good enough. So we’ll have to work out how to get through to those unreconstructed dickheads. I am stumped about how to go about this, mind. Am going to be looking out for ideas on this.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I’ve been asking myself this same question, what role the patriarchy plays in rare stranger abduction/murders like this.

Stranger abduction/murder accounts for 8% (1 in 12 cases) apparently.

Stranger killing accounts for 8%, or one in 12, of all killings of women by men. Between 2009 and 2018, 119 women were killed by men who were not known to them. Yes, a woman is more likely to be killed by someone she knows – every three days in the UK by a man and every four days by a partner or former partner – but following the killing of Sarah Everard, we are being fed a narrative by Metropolitan Police chief Cressida Dick that it is “incredibly rare for a woman to be abducted from our streets”.

By that simple statement the Met minimised the risk women face from men, and intentionally diminished femicide. ‘“Incredibly rare” should mean much more than very unusual. “Abducted from our streets” is a curious deflection. Strangers do abduct women, but they also kill women on the street, or follow them, or enter their homes. And friends, acquaintances, partners and colleagues also abduct women they know and kill them. It is also far more common to be abducted from the street and raped, attacked or sexually assaulted with impunity.

Cases like Sarah Everard's are not 'incredibly rare' and the police must admit it

Cressida Dick’s statement minimised the risk women face from men – and fits with years of police and government failure to treat the issue seriously

www.theguardian.com

 

[The39thStep]

I can't see coppers being sent to clubs and it not ending up being mostly about drugs.

Just seen an incredible yougov poll on plainclothes police in clubs in which has completely thrown me

 

[Treacle Toes]

I don't believe any of it.

 

[Red Cat]

Stranger abduction/murder accounts for 8% (1 in 12 cases) apparently.

Cases like Sarah Everard's are not 'incredibly rare' and the police must admit it

Cressida Dick’s statement minimised the risk women face from men – and fits with years of police and government failure to treat the issue seriously

www.theguardian.com

8% is much higher than I thought. That femicide report makes for very distressing reading.

 

[Raheem]

Just seen an incredible yougov poll on plainclothes police in clubs in which has completely thrown me

View attachment 259158

Anyway, based on my extensive research involving various TV police dramas, if the police are going to go into a club it will almost always be a strip club, usually in the daytime while the strippers happen to be rehearsing. So most clubs should end up being cop-free most of the time.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Just seen an incredible yougov poll on plainclothes police in clubs in which has completely thrown me

I don't believe any of it.

wonder exactly how the question was led up to / put, which (as 'sir humphrey' demonstrated at one point in 'yes minister' can get opposite answers to the same question)

YG do have some form for a 'what answer do you want?' approach to whoever's funding any particular poll...