I heard an interesting doc on r4 a few years ago that looked into the data about women being passed over for jobs, book deals, etc etc and the same biases against giving women positions were found from female decision makers - IIRC it might even have been worse.
Curfew For Men
- Thread starter Orang Utan
- Start date
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
As I’ve said said elsewhere, the conditioning goes very deep.
The easiest and most efficient way to maintain the status quo of any system is for those within it to maintain it.
See also capitalism etc
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Yes. Maintained by men and by women (not or: and)
Which is why sexism and misogyny are not the same as the patriarchy, although of course they’re interconnected and mutually symptomatic.
Treacle Toes
Time
Exactly right. Both men and women have a part to play in maintaining and perpetuating institutionalised misogyny.
The policing minister said today that 10 years for defacing a statue is right because they have lots of 'emotional value'.
It's 5 years for rape.
KitCunthouse will no doubt be backed up by Piranha Patel.
I was also a bit shocked at the earlier notallmenning which was going on upthread...because ime, it actually is all men. Obviously, they are not all doing it all the time...but ho, yes, I have eyes to see and know we don't like turning a spotlight on our own less than enlightened behaviour but I know absolutely that both my long-term (37years) partner and my 2 male offspring are absolutely capable (and in certain circs, willing) to use their size, strength, hormones, privilege, history, social positioning to hit a smaller, weaker human being. At the very least, please own this because at the heart of any dialogue must be openness and honesty....including a sly complicity that women, will also use these loaded weapons to ensure status and privilege. This greedy injustice, this absolute weighting of the scales precludes a real conversation about where we are where we are...and obviously, women who still choose to live our lives with our male lovers, our sons, our friends and colleagues...well we need to have a good look at who is doing the manipulating and why.
And to recognise that violence against anyone oppressed by their class, ethnicity, bodies, beliefs, history and convention, creates damage, one way or another. This includes the false valorisation of some spurious 'manliness'...which keeps us locked in some terrible, brutal patterns of behaviour.
And to recognise that violence against anyone oppressed by their class, ethnicity, bodies, beliefs, history and convention, creates damage, one way or another. This includes the false valorisation of some spurious 'manliness'...which keeps us locked in some terrible, brutal patterns of behaviour.
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hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
The point made above about patriarchy not equalling men is a good one, but I'd also add that you don't have to understand a certain beauty process to appreciate the results, and/or to be negative about people/women not practicing it (especially ones that are so normalised as to be an expectation). Maybe that's like a jumble of words, but I'd say like: a man doesn't have to understand the ins and outs of dieting, calorie counting, and all the rest of that stuff, to express a preference for women who live up to a certain standard of slimness, or to be demeaning about women who don't live up to that standard. Similarly with the other things mentioned in that quote, men who aren't familar with those things might still think that a woman who does all of them "looks right" and a woman who doesn't do them doesn't.
Well yes, we all absorb these little nudges to keep us anxious, uncomfortable and spending our measly wages on ensuring the status quo remains totally fixed. It is very hard to step outside of these structures (I am enjoying the freedoms of the old, irrelevant and largely invisible, but not sure we all should be waiting on becoming some senile nonentity to throw off the shackles of bourgois individualism ( see, I still remember some of the lingo despite having hidden in a shed for the last 3 decades).
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
I really don't recognise myself in that - but perhaps it's the way you've worded it. I am not a violent man, and have absolutely no urge to be except defensively. But have I behaved sexistly towards women? Yes, and often haven't realised it sometimes until years later, particularly in a work context where looking back I can see instances where I've viewed the same behaviour as eager and proactive from a man and pushy and irritating from a woman. I think all men (and women) carry these cultural views but I don't think we're all capable and willing of using violence to achieve our ends. And on the role of women - yes, when I have pushed back against bad male behaviour at times some of the most vociferous defenders of the man in question were women - there are plenty of women ready to defend male behaviour, and I don't think this is necessarily always 'complicity' in a conscious sly way, its a kneejerk defence of the patriarchal behaviour based on a lifetime of conditioning.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Definitely. Left groups are littered with abusive 'leaders', who become surrounded with all the psychological tools of power so that accusers are disbelieved.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
indeed.
like some of the shite in the daily mail (etc) written by women (who are being paid by men) to tell other women to hate themselves / other women / women who argue for feminism. there's one or two articles like that circulating today and i'm not going to pollute urban with them...
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Not sure whether you're suggesting it would be better if they were paid by women. I think that's a fanciful idea. I think it's also the case in some publications.
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LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Just been chatting to a 17 year old young woman about this whole thing. She was totally up for a 6pm curfew for men, she said her and her friends would go out much more and feel much safer, and how things are now she doesn't often feel safe out.
Also she says it's very common for very young boys (10 or so) at her school to use aggressively sexual language against young women about her age, and the teachers dismiss it as 'just boys being boys.'
Grim.
Also she says it's very common for very young boys (10 or so) at her school to use aggressively sexual language against young women about her age, and the teachers dismiss it as 'just boys being boys.'
Grim.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
not really - on the experience of prime ministers, for example...
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Small sample size. But can't argue there.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Maybe trashpony's rule about aspiring leaders could do with extending a little.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
This Ask a Manager letter gave me a bit of hope and shows there are decent men who will challenge bad behaviour. Trigger warning for pervy boss, but his new hire not only challenged him but did it on his first day when he must've been worried about making the wrong impression. Fair play mate.
www.askamanager.org
Also, I was talking to my brother today, who told me his nine-year-old son recently challenged quite a misogynist remark made by one of his schoolfriends (the friend's sister went out in a certain dress that the lad told everyone made her look like a slag). Anyway, my nephew spoke up and told him "She's your sister! Even if you think that, you shouldn't say it." We were really proud of him, because it's not always easy to speak up even for adults (and relieved, because he was recently going through his own hate-girls phase, so he's hopefully grown out of that). My brother praised him, and they had a man-to-man, age-appropriate chat about sexism and why it's wrong. Apparently, his son then said "Dad, my sister's a pain at times but I wouldn't talk about her when she's not there or call her any names." That was really good to hear.
I reported my boss to HR on my first day, an AWOL manager, and more
It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go… 1. I reported my boss to HR on my first day Last week, I started at a new job that relocated me across
www.askamanager.org
Also, I was talking to my brother today, who told me his nine-year-old son recently challenged quite a misogynist remark made by one of his schoolfriends (the friend's sister went out in a certain dress that the lad told everyone made her look like a slag). Anyway, my nephew spoke up and told him "She's your sister! Even if you think that, you shouldn't say it." We were really proud of him, because it's not always easy to speak up even for adults (and relieved, because he was recently going through his own hate-girls phase, so he's hopefully grown out of that). My brother praised him, and they had a man-to-man, age-appropriate chat about sexism and why it's wrong. Apparently, his son then said "Dad, my sister's a pain at times but I wouldn't talk about her when she's not there or call her any names." That was really good to hear.
izz
Increased Leisure Citizen
Tell me about it LynnDoyleCooper, so now if women want to go clubbing they have the additional worry of potentially meeting some more Waynes. Hilarious, in a very black sense of humour way.
bimble
floofy
what where is this from? This is the worst idea they've had for at least a day.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Project Vigilant, all very Brass Eye.
Police could patrol nightclubs in drive to protect women
Steps to improve safety in England and Wales include plainclothes patrols of bars and clubs and more funds for streetlights and CCTV
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Don't worry, I'm sure there will be no downside whatsoever to the government sending spies into nightclubs to eavesdrop on peoples' conversations.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
and how long before the first of these undercover coppers abuses their position?
or before you get shits pretending to be undercover coppers and so on?
(i'd have no idea what a proper warrant card looks like. and for that matter not sure i could say what a proper police uniform looks like other than varying degrees of black and high-vis)
or before you get shits pretending to be undercover coppers and so on?
(i'd have no idea what a proper warrant card looks like. and for that matter not sure i could say what a proper police uniform looks like other than varying degrees of black and high-vis)
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
No idea. On saturday whilst running i saw a man in a police uniform with a backpack over his hi vis vest so the word Police (i think) was obscured. He was carrying a co op bag. As the police often do, he gave me a great big welcoming smile. I dont think i have ever run so fast.
I mean, what the fucking hell is the thinking behind this 'more police in bars' shit? They literally could not have got it wronger.
I mean, what the fucking hell is the thinking behind this 'more police in bars' shit? They literally could not have got it wronger.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Really? I've only seen that happen once and I figured it was his first day.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Oh no, i cant fault their smiling and saying hello capacities around here. But then i believe ted bundy was quite good at that, too.
Indian trains too, women’s carriages. Also (last year anyway) they have posters all over the train about sexual harassment and don’t do it.
This is also found (which may be a surprise if you don't know the region) in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Women-only trains, public spaces, banks. Many shopping malls have designated "family days" for parents and children. Dubai also has a women-only taxi service, applying to both drivers and passengers
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yeah, I wonder why they have those...
bimble
floofy
Indian big cities have that too (women driver & passengers only taxis). It’s not a good sign when these things are necessary & popular.
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