chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Sure.
Curfew For Men
- Thread starter Orang Utan
- Start date
Sure.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
They wouldn't be devoid of people though would they?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Not literally, no.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Exactly. and we're this to ever happen no one would need nor expect every single man to be at home (plenty would have to work etc.) for the gesture to be effective.
...but it is only a gesture.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
What would the gesture be effective in achieving?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
A glimpse of a different world.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Doesn't matter whether we agree or not though does it?
What matters is whether enough men can organise ourselves to play a part in the cultural and behavioural shifts that are needed.
ItWillNeverWork, do you think we need cultural and behavioural shifts?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
So it's more a disagreement about how they might be achieved? Do you have ideas about how we get there?
Raheem
Well-Known Member
There's already something happening, though. Why not just support that?
A voluntary curfew would just be a few earnest men doing childcare as a very special gesture of solidarity anyway.
(Not that staying in actually means anything at all ATM, obviously.)
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Exactly. I fear a gesture would do nothing but make people feel like they’ve done something when in fact nothing had been achieved. And then we all go back to normal.
I don’t have all the answers of course, but one thing I think needs tackling is the easy access to violent and pornographic material. It’s not healthy for young people growing up to be exposed to this stuff.
I honestly think many young people are traumatised by having been exposed to some of this stuff, and that a distorted view of sex and violence results.
I could be speaking rubbish of course, but those are my instincts.
The problems of objectification and power dynamics started way before porn and grew ever wider regardless of what porn was and wasn’t allowed. The current horrific situation with porn is a symptom of the problem, not its cause. Notwithstanding that it feeds back into the problem, helping to self-perpetuate the issue, of course.
I like marching...I really do. And foremost in my mind is not, 'oooh, look, we are raising public awareness and this will lead to institutional changes'. Nope, it is that incredibly powerful feeling that numbers of people marching and shouting with one voice gives me, a little old woman, with my (sweary) placards and noisy horns, wooden spoons, baking trays and kitchen implements, trailing offspring and friends, a feeling of...power. Being part of the unruly mob. Tell me the ruling classes do not fear us when we act together, with solidarity, and I will laugh in your face. If ever there was a time to literally reclaim our streets, then surely this is a moment to be gathered in and used. I think there will be more of this...and I will attend...and so will my sweetheart. Anger is very energising.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
What is that "something happening"? Can someone point me towards a link to it?
What's happening?
maomao
普費斯
Wrong address there if anyone is going. London police haven't been based there since the 19th century. It's on Victoria Embankment now.
ETA: the Facebook post has been updated and now has the correct address.
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So yes, there no doubt is an issue in that violent porn is more easily available. But this was happening way before that, including when I was growing up and before the internet was really a thing.
I don't think anyone is seriously advocating a curfew for men. I think what a lot of people want is for men to start understanding the underlying shit women have to put up with as part of their everyday lives and to understand how fucking exasperating it all is. And for men to take a lead in sorting out their collective shit.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
This thread's been thought provoking!
This is also being debated on Twitter and it honestly had never occurred to me before how many women genuinely do fear men or feel scared walking alone after dark, whether that's because of a bad experience or because of the messages we get drummed into us from when we're little girls. I was brought up no differently, but I had two older brothers who, once they were 16 or so, would just go out when they wanted and I thought, "If they can do it, why shouldn't I." That's basically how I've always lived my life. I take precautions like not walking through isolated short cuts, or getting so drunk it renders me incapable. And if a male friend offers to walk me home, I'll accept for the company and his peace of mind, but I won't rely on that happening to the point of not being able to do stuff or go places if those male friends aren't available.
I don't think this hypothetical male curfew would solve anything, as it would just meet sexism with more sexism, and create more of an us/them divide between the sexes than there already is. Reading so many of your stories, I was saddened by what happened to you and can quite understand why it would make you wary of men. And you're absolutely right to do whatever it takes to make you feel safer. But I think as with everything, the answer has to be the longer term process of education.
Now I've made this point already on the Sarah Everard and Sutcliffe threads, but we don't try to scare blokes off the idea of going out at night based on, for example, knife crime stats despite the fact that most stabbing victims are young men under 20. But from the time a little girl reaches double figures, she's taught that she's a potential rape victim because she's a girl and that she shouldn't go anywhere by herself after dark. Yet the most we might say to a lad is "Well, be vigilant but don't be obsessive." So why do we raise girls to be scared but not boys? The usual culprit - patriarchy! Instead, we should get into the habit of normalising women going out whenever the hell we want, something men take for granted. We also need to encourage girls to stick up for themselves when a bloke catcalls, gropes or crosses a boundary, rather than saying "Don't make him angry."
This is also being debated on Twitter and it honestly had never occurred to me before how many women genuinely do fear men or feel scared walking alone after dark, whether that's because of a bad experience or because of the messages we get drummed into us from when we're little girls. I was brought up no differently, but I had two older brothers who, once they were 16 or so, would just go out when they wanted and I thought, "If they can do it, why shouldn't I." That's basically how I've always lived my life. I take precautions like not walking through isolated short cuts, or getting so drunk it renders me incapable. And if a male friend offers to walk me home, I'll accept for the company and his peace of mind, but I won't rely on that happening to the point of not being able to do stuff or go places if those male friends aren't available.
I don't think this hypothetical male curfew would solve anything, as it would just meet sexism with more sexism, and create more of an us/them divide between the sexes than there already is. Reading so many of your stories, I was saddened by what happened to you and can quite understand why it would make you wary of men. And you're absolutely right to do whatever it takes to make you feel safer. But I think as with everything, the answer has to be the longer term process of education.
Now I've made this point already on the Sarah Everard and Sutcliffe threads, but we don't try to scare blokes off the idea of going out at night based on, for example, knife crime stats despite the fact that most stabbing victims are young men under 20. But from the time a little girl reaches double figures, she's taught that she's a potential rape victim because she's a girl and that she shouldn't go anywhere by herself after dark. Yet the most we might say to a lad is "Well, be vigilant but don't be obsessive." So why do we raise girls to be scared but not boys? The usual culprit - patriarchy! Instead, we should get into the habit of normalising women going out whenever the hell we want, something men take for granted. We also need to encourage girls to stick up for themselves when a bloke catcalls, gropes or crosses a boundary, rather than saying "Don't make him angry."
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
Being genuinely suggested in Scotland. Sarah Everard: SNP MP calls for male curfew in areas where women murdered | The National
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I think a good start would be to make catcalling and any kind of street harassment illegal. They've already done it in France meaning men who behave in this way can be issued with on the spot fines.
Police in the UK say they don't have the resources to carry this out and yet they seem to have the resources to move on beggars
Police in the UK say they don't have the resources to carry this out and yet they seem to have the resources to move on beggars
I think this is very bad advice. Sorry. It ignores reality.
I am not in favour of any extra policing - fuck that...they are part of the problem. Whatever 'policing' needs to be done has to be internal and a sort of social judgement. William Burroughs referred to the 'inner policeman', which normalises certain behaviours and restricts us because we are aware we are transgressing social norms. Any changes in behaviour have to be initiated through a collective social awareness that 'this is not right and I will not condone it anymore'. I have zero appetite for any state reinforcing of social rules...although I do see the need for legislative change regarding prosecution of rape, for instance. Just very suspicious of allowing such a patriarchal institution as the police to take dominant roles in what really amounts to a long-term cultural changing of attitudes.
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I think a good start would be to make catcalling and any kind of street harassment illegal. They've already done it in France meaning men who behave in this way can be issued with on the spot fines.
Police in the UK say they don't have the resources to carry this out and yet they seem to have the resources to move on beggars
I can’t find the link now but I’ve got an email regarding a petition on this. Think it was change.org.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I've written to the first minister of Wales and my local MP asking for this. Maybe if we all wrote to our mps we could actually raise awareness of this as an idea.I think a good start would be to make catcalling and any kind of street harassment illegal. They've already done it in France meaning men who behave in this way can be issued with on the spot fines.
Police in the UK say they don't have the resources to carry this out and yet they seem to have the resources to move on beggars
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
you were talking yesterday about the framing of this problem, as individuals Taking different actions. Saying this approach was missing the point or unlikely to yield widespread change. not putting you on the spot, I was just thinking about it. How would you see a better approach. I mean in an ideal world, what would it look like. I suppose it’s contingent on something changing politically, atomisation, consumer capitalism. But are there any examples of a better approach any where?
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