Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

It's not just Sunak, but Truss said she had misgivings about the relationship between Sage the PM and cabinet although I presume she was more of an outsider being foreign secretary though.

So if either and especially Rishi, had concerns about how things were being run why didn't they resign in protest? 🤔

Given there maybe a public backlash coming about the use of lockdowns I can see why they might now try to distance themselves from it. Something Whitty may need to be wary of as he may unfairly become the lone scapegoat as he is the only person left linked closely to them.
 
What exactly informs your view that there maybe a public backlash against lockdowns coming?

Most of the people who might support Sunaks stance were like that pretty much all the way along, its nothing new for them or for certain publications like the Telegraph. They never truly accepted the case for lockdowns, and went through cycles of being forced into relative silence and temporary begrudging acceptance during the very worst of the initial waves, when it was bloody obvious that there was no alternative to strong measures, only to then attempt to rewrite history and go back into denial later on.

I'd say its true that the further removed we become from those desperate first waves, the more the maximum potential can be unleashed for people to indulge in a convenient misremembering and/or misjudging of that period. But I dont think that maximum potential is actually a very big deal, because I believe that the proportion of the population who can genuinely convince themselves that it was all a terrible overreaction that was disproportionate to the threat is not so great, and continues to be dwarfed by the number of people who had a reasonable view of what we faced. And where those attitudes exist, they have long since already been priced into the picture.

So I dont see how those sorts could contribute significantly to a meaningful new backlash against lockdowns of the past. So are you alluding to possible future lockdowns? As per the other thread we conversed in recently, I dont really see how I can evaluate those possibilities properly at this time. Lockdowns were never something people were going to be delighted to welcome with open arms, people acceptance of them was based on an obvious, dramatic peril that people could grasp. I would not want to have to predict public attitudes unless an equivalent peril properly reveals itself again, until we got to see what proportion of people came to terms with it and accept the need for dramatic action all over again. And there are many other forms of far less dramatic measures and adjustments to behaviour that would come first.

I mean there are clues as to what some of the challenges would be. But evaluating those properly without actually knowing the detail of the viral context the new measures were being suggested in response to seems a bit pointless, too detached from any foundations that would force such issues onto the agenda again in the first place. For example we might expect the public response to be different if we were facing a new variant with really obvious potential and a rapidly established reputation for causing great woe in some other countries, compared to if we were facing a situation where its the slow grinding down of the NHS combined with general and covid-specific winter pressures that have pushed things to a dangerous stage the government deemed necessary to respond to. The psychology would vary between those two different scenarios in ways that could make quite a difference to compliance. Especially since the ability to 'cope' with the last 3 or 4 waves without lockdowns would find people struggling to grasp the detail of why the ability to cope this time was so degraded, why a different response was necessary this time. And the governments 18+ month old attempts to change the mood music to one of having moved on, of the pandemic being in the past, of vaccines on their own being enough, would then come back to haunt them.

In the absence of understanding what context any new measures were imposed in, I can only make some broad and obvious comments about how things varied over time in the past. For example the first lockdown was somewhat easier to accept and come to terms with because there was a big shock that shook people from a sense of normality, a fresh tank of willingness to respond to an emergency and do the right thing, some sense of lots of people being in it together, some novelty value. By the second wave and then the arrival of alpha variant + second full lockdown, people found it harder because some of that had worn off, people were wearier, and the winter season made that lockdown especially grim to cope with. And we might have expected any further lockdowns to carry on that trend, but thankfully we didnt get to find out. Actual lockdowns were replaced by other measures, delays to the timetables to remove other measures, and the threat that lockdowns were still being held in reserve as a last resort. And the behaviours the government needed to encourage were able to be simplified, eventually down to little more than 'get your vaccines when asked on each occasion deemed necessary'. And such things have faded even further from view since then. I'm a 'never say never' person so I cannot convincingly claim that all of those things are certainly gone for good, but I also dont intend to hype up the prospects of their loud return unless we start to find ourselves more obviously in a situation that demands that sort of response and mood music to return. Maybe I'll be able to say something different in a month or three, but hopefully not.
 
Last edited:
What exactly informs your view that there maybe a public backlash against lockdowns coming?

Most of the people who might support Sunaks stance were like that pretty much all the way along, its nothing new for them or for certain publications like the Telegraph. They never truly accepted the case for lockdowns, and went through cycles of being forced into relative silence and temporary begrudging acceptance during the very worst of the initial waves, when it was bloody obvious that there was no alternative to strong measures, only to then attempt to rewrite history and go back into denial later on.

I'd say its true that the further removed we become from those desperate first waves, the more the maximum potential can be unleashed for people to indulge in a convenient misremembering and/or misjudging of that period. But I dont think that maximum potential is actually a very big deal, because I believe that the proportion of the population who can genuinely convince themselves that it was all a terrible overreaction that was disproportionate to the threat is not so great, and continues to be dwarfed by the number of people who had a reasonable view of what we faced. And where those attitudes exist, they have long since already been priced into the picture.

So I dont see how those sorts could contribute significantly to a meaningful new backlash against lockdowns of the past. So are you alluding to possible future lockdowns? As per the other thread we conversed in recently, I dont really see how I can evaluate those possibilities properly at this time. Lockdowns were never something people were going to be delighted to welcome with open arms, people acceptance of them was based on an obvious, dramatic peril that people could grasp. I would not want to have to predict public attitudes unless an equivalent peril properly reveals itself again, until we got to see what proportion of people came to terms with it and accept the need for dramatic action all over again. And there are many other forms of far less dramatic measures and adjustments to behaviour that would come first.

I mean there are clues as to what some of the challenges would be. But evaluating those properly without actually knowing the detail of the viral context the new measures were being suggested in response to seems a bit pointless, too detached from any foundations that would force such issues onto the agenda again in the first place. For example we might expect the public response to be different if we were facing a new variant with really obvious potential and a rapidly established reputation for causing great woe in some other countries, compared to if we were facing a situation where its the slow grinding down of the NHS combined with general and covid-specific winter pressures that have pushed things to a dangerous stage the government deemed necessary to respond to. The psychology would vary between those two different scenarios in ways that could make quite a difference to compliance. Especially since the ability to 'cope' with the last 3 or 4 waves without lockdowns would find people struggling to grasp the detail of why the ability to cope this time was so degraded, why a different response was necessary this time. And the governments 18+ month old attempts to change the mood music to one of having moved on, of the pandemic being in the past, of vaccines on their own being enough, would then come back to haunt them.

In the absence of understanding what context any new measures were imposed in, I can only make some broad and obvious comments about how things varied over time in the past. For example the first lockdown was somewhat easier to accept and come to terms with because there was a big shock that shook people from a sense of normality, a fresh tank of willingness to respond to an emergency and do the right thing, some sense of lots of people being in it together, some novelty value. By the second wave and then the arrival of alpha variant + second full lockdown, people found it harder because some of that had worn off, people were wearier, and the winter season made that lockdown especially grim to cope with. And we might have expected any further lockdowns to carry on that trend, but thankfully we didnt get to find out. Actual lockdowns were replaced by other measures, delays to the timetables to remove other measures, and the threat that lockdowns were still being held in reserve as a last resort. And the behaviours the government needed to encourage were able to be simplified, eventually down to little more than 'get your vaccines when asked on each occasion deemed necessary'. And such things have faded even further from view since then. I'm a 'never say never' person so I cannot convincingly claim that all of those things are certainly gone for good, but I also dont intend to hype up the prospects of their loud return unless we start to find ourselves more obviously in a situation that demands that sort of response and mood music to return. Maybe I'll be able to say something different in a month or three, but hopefully not.
The backlash....
Despite economic news taking over people are aware there's a big nhs backlog of people that either didn't get treatment for various reasons. If that becomes headline news questions will be asked why this wasn't considered a risk of lockdown and managed better.

Sunak alluded to Sages minutes being manipulated to ensure the cabinet would make the decision they want. What happens if this is true and Sage intentionally misled ministers?

The media is economy issues right now and apart from the Telegraph were very supportive of lockdowns, so there might be a delay before they react although they may forget on purpose.

Much the same happened in 2003 after Irag war and WMDs so that's my model for how lockdowns may be remembered.
 
The lockdowns didnt cause treatment delays, the virus and people being sick with it, unmanageable risks of carrying out certain procedures that would have left people immunosuppressed during a nasty wave, lack of hospital capacity and staff etc caused treatment delays. A lack of lockdowns would have made that problem even worse, not better.

It is true that there is a relationship between people being told to stay home to protect the NHS, and people choosing not to seek treatment in the same ways and speed that they would have done pre-pandemic. But even there the lockdowns and related messages were not the only factor behind that, there was also entirely rational fears of hospital acquired infections, and indeed the lack of capacity in the healthcare system meant that a big chunk of this response by the public was exactly how the authorities wanted and needed them to respond.

The lack of decent PPE in the first wave, lack of other forms of protection for healthcare staff was another barrier to keeping every level of the healthcare system, including GPs, functioning at normal levels.

I do not think the public at large have developed an incorrect impression of that situation, they are well aware that optional lockdown decisions were not responsible for all the ways that our health system could not possibly hope to process the normal number of cases during the pandemic. Even if most of the issues I describe had not been a big deal at all in this country, the sheer number of staff absences due to sickness and need to free up hospital capacity to deal with serious covid cases would on their own have been quite sufficient to prevent business as usual. They will blame the pandemic virus combined with the broader state of the NHS for any future NHS woe along these lines, they arent going to blame lockdowns for fucks sake. Well, they can blame other sorts of mismanagement including lockdown mismanagement, eg the lockdowns being late, too weak, not backed up by fully joined up thinking in other areas.
 
Last edited:
As for SAGE minutes, on plenty of occasions during the pandemic I have described how they are not really minutes, they are quite broad summaries that usually shy away from revealing the opinions of individuals. And its already quite well understood that SAGE is a fairly broad church, it can issue consensus statements without any need to misleadingly imply that every single person in SAGE had the same view about something. Nor is it some great revelation that proper science isnt a monolith, there is a spectrum of opinion and a range of confidence levels when it comes to how confident such experts are about a particular fact, expectation, prediction, need for a response etc.

Plus during the buildup to the first wave, SAGE were initially about as on board with the 'do little, stick to insufficient traditional pandemic response plans' agenda as the rest of government. The penny dropped for them that far more would need to be done at about the same time that it started to drop for the rest of government, rather late in the day. And when it comes to who said what and started to change the consensus and push things forwards, there really isnt much point talking about SAGE as if its a monolith. Most of the key action came from specific individuals and institutions and its no secret who they were, eg the people who specifically modelled the much higher rates of hospitalisation and death that finally sent the original government plan into the dustbin, a fair few weeks later than should really have been the case. And even if none of those people and modelling existed, there were other giant clues visible for all to see, based on how most other countries felt the need to respond, once we'd seen what would happen via the awful example of Italy.

If it was not for the Brexit agenda then far more attention could have been paid to the way the need for lockdown penny dropped within the EU establishment, stuff we can trace quite clearly by studying how the ECDC pandemic updates evolved between late February and mid-March 2020. Because those documents inevitably added stuff to reflect the experience of Italy. British exceptionalism may continue to pretend that this was irrelevant to us, but it really wasnt, it reflected the same reality that establishments around the globe faced, as they suddenly had to think the unthinkable and act in dramatic ways. Scientific branches of the establishment may have come to terms with the emerging reality a bit quicker, but the rest of the authorities would have got there in the end. Even if they'd tried to remain in denial, the brutal consequences of inaction would have eventually caught up with them and forced their hand unless they were lucky enough to face different key variables to the ones this country, Italy, Spain, USA etc faced. To pin the way this played out on SAGE is bogus, it was an inevitable consequence of the virus combined with how our societies and economies and behaviours, health and social care systems are ordered that could not be magically dodged. Italy was the wakeup call, the writing was always going to be on the wall as a result. It was only a question of exactly how many weeks further delay our establishment could eke out before reality bit, how the decisions would then be dressed up, who would be given credit for influencing the dramatic shift and its timing. Cummings and his whiteboard would certainly like to take a chunk of the key mid-March credit you are attributing to SAGEs influence! Or we could give some of the journalists who asked the right questions in the right press conferences in early March some of the credit - really it all amounts to the same inevitable momentum towards a new, undodgeable reality of the viruses making. If Sunak was able to resist that momentum then its only testament to the rigidity of his ignorance, to his unwavering commitment to ridiculous priorities at any price. This country has always specialised in cold calculations, but there are still limits to how far such calculations can be stretched before they become counterproductive and unfit to serve the priorities of the establishment. Johnsons relative willingness to u-turn at least made the cold calculations oven ready in this particular instance.

SAGE is also not one group, there are all sorts of subgroups and there was plenty of variation in what they thought, their priorities and the angles they shouted about the loudest, and how useful particular members were deemed to be. For example Robert Dingwall was in a SAGE subgroup but he was soon regarded as a bad joke not fit to contribute sensible ideas during a bad pandemic, a useless 'take little to no action' extremist deeply out of touch with reality. And it wasnt simply a case of 'pro lockdown SAGE' versus the government, plenty within other areas of government had similar low regard for Dingwall and the useless twisted bullshit he came out with in the anti-lockdown press.

And when we get to the subsequent stages of the pandemic where SAGE as a whole were much more clued up and proactive about what needed to be done, its pretty easy for us to see what their stance was, and the extent to which government tried to resist their suggestions for far too long, causing further damage. We can see the timetable of how SAGE suggested responding to the emerging second wave, the extent to which government and the right wing press tried to resist, including attempts to smear and dismiss SAGE members views, and how eventually even the government still had to accept that their own approach was unsustainable and that SAGE was right months earlier. And that the public would then have to face a longer, more brutal lockdown because of those wasted earlier opportunities to do the right thing. So I doubt that any serious commentator is going to spin the sort of bullshit version of history you seem keen to come out with now. Because we followed this stuff every step of the way, we saw sensible advice being ignored, we saw what the consequences of rightwing anti-lockdown goofs getting their way for too long in this country were. Its no surprise they still have the nerve to try to turn the blame back to the people who were trying to do the right thing at the right time, and to attribute all the horrors of the pandemic to the lockdowns rather than the virus, but it wont wash. The shitheads tried to avoid lockdowns, it blew up in their face whenever they tried it in the pre-vaccine era, and left us with longer lockdowns and more damage of every kind!
 
Last edited:
The backlash....
Despite economic news taking over people are aware there's a big nhs backlog of people that either didn't get treatment for various reasons. If that becomes headline news questions will be asked why this wasn't considered a risk of lockdown and managed better.

It was fucking considered. It was more of a risk not to have collective protective measures. Also I work in the NHS, it's been collapsing for years for a mix of complex reasons, largely related to how society is organised and run. On top of that Covid is now being used as an excuse for things like poor public health, underfunding of the NHS for many years, purposefully run down NHS capacity, and worsening poverty and other issues that cause and exacerbate poor health.

Honestly fuck these cunts, hang them from lamp-posts. They caused loads more deaths than we needed to have. And all this war on woke, libertarian, economy the most important murderous bollocks as thousands of people will be dying from fuel and food poverty this winter, plus many more to come from climate disasters we could start dealing with if they wanted to. Fuck them all.
 
Last edited:
Pretty pissed off that the pathetic lack of rules now means I have student(s) coming in tomorrow for speaking assessments who have covid. It will definitely be a mask on day for me, and I'll sit at the other end of the classroom, with the air purifier on. Windows only open a few cm.
 
This has been on my mind so first thing this morning I emailed the student in question, asking if they are still testing positive. I'm not allowed to stop them from coming, but am hoping the subtle pressure will help make a decision either way.
If they dont mask up... less 10%
If they do mask up ... Less 5%
If the postpone under your support to test later = plus 5%
 
Pretty pissed off that the pathetic lack of rules now means I have student(s) coming in tomorrow for speaking assessments who have covid. It will definitely be a mask on day for me, and I'll sit at the other end of the classroom, with the air purifier on. Windows only open a few cm.
That's nuts. Can't help thinking the student is a dick for coming in too.
 
Last edited:
The Telegraph is one of the world's least prestigious publications and has been accused of being partisan, stoking the culture war and driving a wedge through the scientific community.
Yes, I know all of this but people still get what passes for news from them. It may well quite possibly be futile to hope that at least some of them may question the rags motives but it is still worth a try. Also we know that they do this and they should be called out on it every time.
 
Last edited:
So I thought I was coming down with COVID, so far, although I have had mild symptoms I have not tested positive, although my wife has it and is isolating in the spare room.
However, she cannot register her positive tests. The latest batch of tests I have do not have codes and I have an older test with a code but these are no longer valid on the NHS website. The government is deliberately ignoring the spread in the UK and doubt will get away without any sanction. It fucking stinks. 😠 🤬

I haven't read most of this thread, so I guess it's no surprise to those who are following closely, but I needed to vent.
 
Yeah, and since changes to test availability the official daily positives are no longer used as a proper guide to spread and waves. The ONS testing is still considered to be a useful guide but has also undergone some changes of methodology - it was always a bit laggy but as a result of those changes the lag has now reached the stage where the picture it shows each Friday is the picture from about 2 weeks previously, at least thats how Indie SAGE described it in the latest video of theirs that I saw a bit of. The ZOE Covid study also continues to provide a guide as to the infection and wave picture. As of the start of September NHS admissions etc data is only published once a week (switched to weekly much earlier on the official dashboard but for a good while the data was still available daily on the NHS England website), and there were changes to testing methodology there too.

A combination of those sources should continue to provide some indication when the next wave gets going beyond a certain scale. So far we are in the foothills with only vague indications of a resurgence and variation by UK nation and region. The typical 'infections rising in younger groups once schools went back' may be on display again in certain data, but not yet in dramatic enough fashion for me to have started going on about this stuff frequently again. And I took a break from looking at much data so my own descriptions of the picture may not be the best. Certainly in terms of timing with schools, Scotland was ahead of England again in terms of showing a rise, which we'd expect with their earlier school term start, but it seems to have been a modest rise so far. I've not seen any steep trajectories so far but as I said I've not been looking very closely.
 
Last edited:

Looks like we'll be getting an expert and in-depth impartial inquiry :thumbs:

That covers one strand of the inquiry, its not the whole thing by any stretch.

This side of things is how they will pay lip service to the idea of placing the bereaved at the heart of things. How they will do no such thing, will keep this stuff off to one side and will instead seek to demonstrate that they have listened by having a 3rd party process the thoughts of the bereaved, turning them into a neat product that will distill thoughts down to some bullet points, a few example quotes, and some attempts to quantify certain feelings. And then when it comes time to summarise their overall findings, they will blend that product in with all the failings they discovered via the main body of work of the inquiry, and will try to use words that demonstrate how much they really care. But they dont want the bereaved clogging up their main channels of inquiry, thats a pesky inconvenience that involves having to hear from too many people that simply dont understand the 'difficult choices and balances' the establishment managerial classes have to make. All the practical management reasons why actually caring about the rascal multitude in that way would change the cold calculations and priorities of the establishment, upsetting the applecart and encouraging little people to have weird ideas about their lives actually mattering in the grand scheme of things. We cant have that! The calculations must remain cold at their heart, the inquiry will pretend otherwise but will actually prioritise learning lessons that make the cold calculations of the future more effective and fit for their purposes rather than genuinely changing establishment priorities and sense of purpose.

They will need an entirely different set of mechanisms in order to make all the other inquiry angles stay within the establishment comfort zone, stuff unrelated to this Guardian article.

There is a dedicated thread for the public inquiry but its not very active yet because the inquiry isnt very active yet:

 
Last edited:
Well it varies a bit. They are certainly done so as to be seen to be doing something, to draw lines under things, to control the timing and narrative, etc. The extent to which they are used to perpetuate cover-ups, impose limits on the bounds of discussion, and actually learn and make changes to establishment thinking varies. If they fail to take enough heat out of the matters then sometimes they end up having to revisit the subjects again years later.

Peoples skepticism is usually well-founded but sometimes goes so far as to overlook meaningful changes that can sometimes result. Its entirely understandable that skepticism will be at an especially high level in this country given that the Leveson inquiries recommendations were ignored in such a blatant and comprehensive manner, to give a very sad example from a recent era.

Lots of the pandemic failures were mirrored in some other countries and international institutions and blocks, and we can already see plenty of areas where sensible lessons will continue to be incompatible with other priorities, and will not be acted upon. The Lancet commission on lessons for the future from the COVID-19 pandemic covers plenty of this, and its not hard to see which areas they are pissing in the wind because those institutions they look to to implement necessary change wont want to do so.

 

back on the rise

Yes. At least the press noticed, I was wondering if they would.

Since the NHS England data only comes out once a week these days my ability to judge this rise more comprehensively is rather limited. And the increase in daily hospital admissions/diagnoses had a rather abrupt increase on the most recent days available admissions data. Now we've got to wait a whole week to see what it does next.

Screenshot 2022-09-22 at 23.05.png
 
We wont get the next NHS England hospital figures till later this week, so I'm unsure of the extent to which the following could be attributed to Covid or not:



None of the media reports on this that I've seen have shed any light so far, they all include various quotes from hospital management going on about sustained demand for a long period of time, and none use the word Covid.
 
Im unable to see anything on Twitter, is whatever it is reported anywhere else?
Yes. One example:


As I said, Covid doesnt get a mention and clearly there are multiple severe pressures on the NHS these days, some of which are directly related to Covid and some of which are indirectly related or not much related. I'll get some clues on Thursday, which since the start of September has been the day that the dashboard and NHS England data comes out (it used to be Wednesday for the dashboard, when new NHS England data was still available each weekday from the NHS England website, something that no longer happens).

I dont know as anyone here looks at the dashboard anymore, but be aware that Scotland changed their measurements for hospital admissions to a different definition as of September 22nd. And so the overall UK hospital admission figures are no longer published at all on the dashboard since that date, since Scotlands numbers arent the same thing as the other nations figures. I am still studying the details of that change and will probably comment on it later.

The only reason I havent moaned more about the 'learning to live with covid' agenda having big knock on implications for data availability and timeliness is that its been clear for ages that this would happen, and it happened in stages, so I moaned about it in stages rather than via one giant rant. And sadly I knew the media wouldnt kick up a stink about it, they would broadly go along with it. Certain decisions which affected data quality and frequency could be reversed again in future if a new wave requires much attention, but Im not banking on it.
 
Here come the concerns, that the next covid wave is upon us and that we'll have to cope with a lot of flu as well. Authorities have been worried about this combination for several years but the return to normal behaviour and the experience in countries like Australia make those concerns much stronger this year.

Of course unlike earlier in the pandemic, the 'need to act' that such warnings can sponsor is channeled towards getting more people vaccinated, and we wont hear too much about other behavioural changes etc unless the shit really hits the fan.


UK Health Security Agency chief medical adviser Dr Susan Hopkins told BBC News Covid cases "looked like they were turning in all four nations in the UK".

"We do believe we are starting to see our autumn wave of Covid," she said.

NHS director for vaccinations and screening Steve Russell said: "This winter could be the first time we see the effects of the so called 'twindemic' with both Covid and flu in full circulation, so it is vital that those most susceptible to serious illness from these viruses come forward for vaccines in order to protect themselves and those around them."

Dr Hopkins said: "I am more worried about flu than I have been for the last few years because of the reduction of immunity that is around."

She said there were "strong indications" that the UK could face the threat of widely circulating flu along with new Covid variants that might evade the immune response.

"This combination poses a serious risk to our health, particularly those in high-risk groups. So, if you are offered a jab, please come forward to protect yourself."

The Daily Express is mostly a useless rag but at times like these it is thought that its front page may usefully reach part of the vaccine target demographic, and in this respect they have 'done their duty'.

Screenshot 2022-09-28 at 09.33.png
 
Back
Top Bottom