Charlotte Dujardin not competing in dressage after whipping video emerges

[Lord Camomile]

Two of Dujardin's sponsors, equestrian insurance company KBIS and Danish equestrian equipment company Equine LTS, have removed their backing.
Equite LTS said they are "shocked and saddened by the video" and "do not condone this form of behaviour".
KBIS said they "cannot and will not condone behaviour" that goes against providing the "best care possible" for horses."

According to her, she was "making an error of judgement"
is that what they call animal cruelty in her circles?!

 

[felixthecat]

So for you, it's a question of the least harm?

Thank you but I'm quite capable of forming my own opinions without them being made up by you.
Horse racing is generally a dirty 'sport' and all the campaigning is against steeplechasing. No one seems to complain about flat racing.

 

[tardigrade]

You said that steeple chasing wasn't as bad as flat racing. Hence my question.
Anyway this thread isn't about horse racing, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Even if the whipping itself were not bad enough, she complains the whip is "shit" for hitting hard. Should be banned from going near a horse ever again.

 

[felixthecat]

You said that steeple chasing wasn't as bad as flat racing. Hence my question.
Anyway this thread isn't about horse racing, so I'll leave it there.

It damages more horses, serious long term damage. That's a fact. Steeplechasing gets more headlines because the damage is more dramatic. That's a fact.

Anyway I'm an outlier here because I love watching dressage. I've watched my d-i-l schooling dressage for hours and it's absorbing. The level of communication between the horse and rider that develops is beautiful to watch. It's not just the horse that's schooled, it's horse and rider as one unit. There's no real point to it, it's a technical discipline and because it's not exciting and has minimal risk to horse or rider no one other than other horsey people appreciate the work and the skill that goes into it.

 

[Silas Loom]

Years ago, a friend's daughter was on a research grant from the British Horseracing Industry at the Bristol veterinary university to find out why so many flat race horses suffer the skeletal problems you describe. One of the tests they did was to make a 2 year old horse gallop on a treadmill for a period of time. The horse must been terrified because if it slowed down or stopped it would fall off the treadmill and I'm pretty disgusted with anyone who could get involved in this sort of research.

Horse racing is all about making money....no more and no less.

Was that the Pegasus project? I think the horse eventually did take off.

 

[felixthecat]

And the general care of horses is changing. More horses aren't stabled which is a bit like putting them in a prison cell. Horses are herd animals and being kept in stable damages their psychological well-being. The son & dils livery allows the horses to make a choice of being inside in the barn or outside, as and when they like. It allows them to create their own alliances and friendships which is really sweet to see. Most of the horses are also barefoot - going from shoes to barefoot is an interesting process too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Equestrian sports are odd. Dujardin won a string of gold medals, nothing but gold medals for a while, on the horse Valegro, then has done no better than bronze since. Almost like the horse is the one doing the actual work.

 

[Humberto]

Equestrian sports are odd. Dujardin won a string of gold medals, nothing but gold medals for a while, on the horse Valegro, then has done no better than bronze since. Almost like the horse is the one doing the actual work.

Imagine being an equestrian sports overseer or judge.

 

[Epona]

Having been a keen horse rider when younger, and having done a bit of show jumping as well as being a stablehand at a show jumping stables, I can assure you that the vast majority of people treat their horses much like a good person treats their pet dog or cat - with kindness, respect, and utter love. Working with a willing horse is like the bond you can have with a working dog who needs to be active both mentally and physically.

I am aware of some incidents of abuse - one large scale case of abuse at a riding school (that was not involved in any equestrian sports, just a place where you could book a 2hr/half day/whole day hack in a group, an old friend of mine managed to get them shut down and rescued some horses from that situation herself), and one top flight famous equestrian "sportsperson" of a few decades back who I saw do some horrendous things but he rarely seemed to get into much trouble over it no matter what was reported (bit of a bully to humans too from what I heard).

But it isn't the majority of what goes on at all, you don't get very far with a horse by treating it like shit - they are naturally sensitive, nervous animals who need to feel very safe and secure and you don't achieve that necessary bond by whipping or hitting or shouting at them.

 

[Humberto]

There was a joke that a 'busman's holiday' was a dock worker or maybe a mine worker who drives a cart instead of being stuck on day work on the docks. But the busman would rather go and look after his horse on his day off so would go and look after his horse on his day off.

 

[Epona]

Also in terms of horse-racing (I come from a family where the generation above me had a couple of jockeys, although I was never involved in it myself, my dad was Jockey Club before I was born and my uncle was National Hunt) it is a different kettle of fish because the entire thing is driven by the betting and related sponsorship industries - it's big business involving investments of billions of £/$ in a way that other equestrian sports such as show jumping and dressage are not.

People IME tend to get the scale of exploitation wrong too, everyone thinks the horses are at the bottom of the exploitation pile, but they aren't - they each have an individual monetary value to their owners which can in many cases be quite large, whereas jockeys are largely viewed as disposable, with the exception of a few who have made a name for themselves, which most don't do.

The proper ranking of importance of "assets vs exploitation" in the horse racing industry is:

The gambling industry
Race horse owners (I mean the big ones, not Sue in marketing who was given a 1/30th share of a race horse as a retirement gift)
Trainers
Horses
Stablehands/jockeys (I include both as 1 entry because they are often interchangeable, most people employed in the industry as jockeys do or have done both, and they tend to be rural working class in demographic)
Gamblers

 

[Epona]

only the humans get medals ffs

Not true that there's no recognition for the horse, the horses get ribbons (rosette or a sash) in every competition where they are placed, Olympics or any other competition. That is to show the horse's achievement, rather than the rider's. (In fact quite often, that is the main award that is given, is to the horse. Medals for the rider is a bit less common).
Most people will be prouder of their horse's ribbons than their own, because even if they have trained a horse from young (which in most cases is done kindly, or you wouldn't even be able to ride them), they know it is the teamwork and bond between the both of them that made it possible.
Not everyone who likes horses is the sort of arsewipe you seem to think they are (and we're not all posh/monied either).

 

[krtek a houby]

Maybe someone should whip her in such a fashion, she won't be bored then!

Advocating violence against women isn't something to even joke about. Regardless of her actions against the defenseless horse. She should be banned from the "sport", fined or do a lengthy community service.

 

[Epona]

Advocating violence against women isn't something to even joke about. Regardless of her actions against the defenseless horse. She should be banned from the "sport", fined or do a lengthy community service.

Spending x number of hours building a shelter at a donkey or horse sanctuary, or digging out ragwort from pasture/grazing land would seem like fitting community service.

 

[krtek a houby]

Spending x number of hours building a shelter at a donkey or horse sanctuary, or digging out ragwort from pasture/grazing land would seem like fitting community service.

Agreed. There's only so much apologizing she can do in the media or online. This would be far more useful and maybe not only would the animals benefit from it, but it might help rehabilitate her.

 

[Epona]

Agreed. There's only so much apologizing she can do in the media or online. This would be far more useful and maybe not only would the animals benefit from it, but it might help rehabilitate her.

I do think there is an issue with the idea of having to be at the top in sports, and the sort of pressure that brings, competition at that level is not as healthy as it is cracked up to be either mentally or physically - it's the same sort of pressure that leads people to abuse their own bodies to reach the extremes of certain sports that can lead to stuff like eating disorders and the like.
The best thing is her being banned from competing, either she'll remember she's supposed to love her horses, or she'll sell/retire them to someone who will always keep that in mind.

 

[Epona]

I think I'm in a bit of a small minority here on urban in that I grew up rural poor and really into horses, and always managed to find a way to be around them when I lived in a rural area, such as working in return for riding lessons, or exercising horses for local farmers, or working as a stablehand. (There is a reason my User Name here and even as a nickname before I was here is Epona - the Romano-Celtic/Gallic horse deity, yes I am also an archaeologist interested in those civilisations, but went for the one with the horse reference).

I don't half see a lot of people on here spouting nonsense about the subject though, often riddled with a lot of assumptions about what people who like to be around horses are like, and about what horses are like - often from a position that seems to be complete derived opinion but no actual experience about the subject.

Welcome to the internet I guess

 

[Epona]

In terms of why the use of "whips" - if you mean a riding crop, if anyone beats a horse with that they need to be prosecuted and what goes on in horse racing is not good.
A normal riding horse is trained to respond to pressure from the rider's legs to ask it to turn in a particular direction, and a riding crop is usually used without any cruelty, you just touch (not hit) it behind your calf when giving directions to turn to reinforce the leg aid you gave, and that is it.
One of the horses I used to exercise had been beaten about the head with one as a filly and I couldn't go near her with one, quite understandably, but most times they not used for cruelty or punishment and most horses are not afraid of them - they would be if they'd been used to hurt them.
The lunging whip is I think an evolution of what the driver of a horse-drawn carriage would use in absence of leg aids, and anyone smacking a horse with one should be prosecuted. It should be used a bit like the crop to gently touch the horse on the flank or hindquarters to ask it to turn or speed up - not ever hit with it.
And shouldn't be used to forcefully hit a horse ever, whether they are pulling a cart or carriage or in training.

 

[tardigrade]

I don't half see a lot of people on here spouting nonsense about the subject though, often riddled with a lot of assumptions about what people who like to be around horses are like, and about what horses are like - often from a position that seems to be complete derived opinion but no actual experience about the subject.

I've no doubt that you love horses and would never subject them to abuse. However, the truth is horses are trained for the benefit of human pleasure, and and making money. Whether it be racing, show jumping, riding, hunting, whatever.
No amount of explaining how the industry works, and how people don't understand horsey people, can negate this fact.

 

[hash tag]

I've no doubt that you love horses and would never subject them to abuse. However, the truth is horses are trained for the benefit of human pleasure, and and making money. Whether it be racing, show jumping, riding, hunting, whatever.
No amount of explaining how the industry works, and how people don't understand horsey people, can negate this fact.

It is not ok to train a horse or any other animal, certainly not in some of the ways mentioned, for human pleasure of financial gain.

 

[klang]

It is not ok to train a horse or any other animal, certainly not in some of the ways mentioned, for human pleasure of financial gain.

I'm glad the majority of dogs are trained.

 

[Epona]

I've no doubt that you love horses and would never subject them to abuse. However, the truth is horses are trained for the benefit of human pleasure, and and making money. Whether it be racing, show jumping, riding, hunting, whatever.
No amount of explaining how the industry works, and how people don't understand horsey people, can negate this fact.

Are you completely against keeping all animals as pets then?

 

[Aladdin]

I've no doubt that you love horses and would never subject them to abuse. However, the truth is horses are trained for the benefit of human pleasure, and and making money. Whether it be racing, show jumping, riding, hunting, whatever.
No amount of explaining how the industry works, and how people don't understand horsey people, can negate this fact.

They were also a means of transport and used for agriculture for centuries. Working horses existed for 1000s of years. They are intrinsically linked with humans. The population of horses is as it is because of their unique relationship with humans.
We have less need for working horses now. But there may come a time when we need them again..who knows.

The issue / problem is with humans being cruel.
Many horse owners are not cruel. But there are cruel abusive people in this world. These people deserve jail time for their treatment of these beautiful animals.

 

[klang]

They were also a means of transport and used for agriculture for centuries.

Still are and rightly so.

 

[tardigrade]

Are you completely against keeping all animals as pets then?

I see, you're going down the route of deflection.

 

[Aladdin]

Still are

In many poorer countries they are the only means of transport.

 

[Aladdin]

I see, you're going down the route of deflection.

You're being quite an ass.....

 

[two sheds]

not sure it is deflection tardigrade

I've no doubt that you love horses and would never subject them to abuse. However, the truth is horses are trained for the benefit of human pleasure, and and making money. ...

I have a dog and he's (somewhat ) trained for the benefit of humans' pleasure or at least not to annoy them or become a danger. Is that wrong for dogs as well as horses?

 

[felixthecat]

It is not ok to train a horse or any other animal, certainly not in some of the ways mentioned, for human pleasure of financial gain.

I believe that's what we do with dogs. We train them for our own convenience, pleasure and gain. We train them not to piss and shit everywhere, we train them to walk on a lead, all for our convenience. We train them to work for us - sniffer dogs, sheep dogs, assistance dogs, gun dogs.
I do not have a problem with training animals. I have a problem with some of the training methods