Sounds like an important piece of work - Pretty long book though by the sounds of its scope. Don't want to be too tiresome on the Amazon Kindle issue (since I haven't even got one yet), but as I said before Amazon nowadays sell more Kindle downloads than books - AND, you can self publish ANYTHING yourself directly on Kindle Self publishing - AND keep 70% of the download price you select . OK, not many anti fascists probably have Kindles yet, but as with the music download phenomenum of the last 5 years - soon we all will. So don't let a lack of publisher stop you doing the book. I'll be glad to give you info on 71 to 87 period.
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
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Sounds like an important piece of work - Pretty long book though by the sounds of its scope. Don't want to be too tiresome on the Amazon Kindle issue (since I haven't even got one yet), but as I said before Amazon nowadays sell more Kindle downloads than books - AND, you can self publish ANYTHING yourself directly on Kindle Self publishing - AND keep 70% of the download price you select . OK, not many anti fascists probably have Kindles yet, but as with the music download phenomenum of the last 5 years - soon we all will. So don't let a lack of publisher stop you doing the book. I'll be glad to give you info on 71 to 87 period.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
in my experience publishers in general seem to work at a slower and more frustrating (analogue) pace than any other media - unlike journalism which is immediate. shall ponder ayatollah's kindle idea tho. however, the book as an object - they're just nice to have around (and also to send to folk at xmas). thanks ayatollah for the offer of info. i am hoping to get more 'on the spot' reports from the folk who were there (easily done via email and by getting permission to use stuff like that from this forum) and situate UK MILITANT antifascism into a european wide context. what made BtF such a good read is that it is funny and very entertaining as well as being essential people's history. one of the things red action should be noted for is the style of their reports - 'the full and frank discussion' and 'vicious but fair' etc! spot on.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
In what way did I get the impression? Or in what way are they trying to keep the fight going?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The latter really but I suppose the two are inter related.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
Keeping the fight going along the lines of AFA of the past, I get the impression mostly physically at the moment but they are in the process of putting on concerts and trying to make contact with activists from back then back to draw on their experience, I don't know any of them personally but from what little I do know I am greatly encouraged that there are still people who are prepared to carry on the fight both physically and ideologically and still prepared to put their liberty and well being at risk to do so.
Inigo Montoya
Well-Known Member
I'd agree with this 100%. As someone involved in stuff in Dublin for the last five years but who is based in Manchester for the summer, I've been really impressed by the MAFA crew. I traveled with them down to Leeds the weekend before last and Liverpool last weekend for anti-fascist benefit gigs. Though I think they've only been around for less than a year, their political work, the way their (re)building up a strong anti-fascist presence/culture in the city as well as the physical side of things has been very impressive by all accounts. It should also be noted they've done their best to talk to/get direction from the last generation of Manchester anti-fascists (G.T, J. H., D.C., S.T. etc..)
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Fight who physically and put their liberty at risk against who? The main far right party doesn't do marches, but pehaps Manchester AFA are trying to find the right sort of fascist with the right sort of tactics so that they can carry out their 1980s AFA re-enactment society. These sort of tactics are irrelevant for anti fascism in the 21st century
'The lines of AFA' were defined by fascists who wanted to march and grow once they were stopped 'the lines of AFA' wer about building a pro working class alternative to the three main parties and the BNP .
Very sad to see the Antifa members get jailed but they were after the wrong end of the wrong pantomine horse
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
There isn't a renewed 'street presence' in Manchester .
And if there was then wouldn't we need a both a twin strategy of physical opposition and building a political alternative to the main stream parties and the the far right?
What did you think of the Filling the Vacuum conclusion that came out of the original AFA?
Need for a twin track strategy - yes indeed. I think that when Filling the Vacuum was written it reflected completely correctly the political reality- and still NOW, today, it is generally correct.
BUT, political events don't stand still - since Filling the Vacuum there has been an end of the global boom bubble in which the BNP appeared to thrive as a non-Nazi, but instead populist "Poujadist" party of the extreme Right - feeding on anti immigrant, and incoming migrant worker, prejudice, and a range of other UKIP type "bigot and nationalism" issues, but this in a situation where most people were relatively prosperous, feeding off the property-led economic bubble.
Today we are in the early stages of systemic world economic crisis, in which British working class living standards are going to be hammered . We are therefore in a different era - and the fascists will come back on the streets again along with generalised unrest - the confused "Brownshirt...esque right radicals" of the EDL are just a harbinger of this change.
So I wouldn't assume violent actions by fascist groups or proto fascist groups won't eventually appear in Manchester again as the economic crisis enfolds. However this in no way contradicts the Filling the Vacuum strategy of IWCA-type initiatives in the White Working Class - makes it even more important in fact as you quite rightly say. We just mustn't assume that the days of direct action anti fascism are gone for good. I think we could actually be in danger of being in agreement here, the 39th Step. I just think you have been a bit hard on the MAFA lads.
Red Storm
M14
Sorry I've not replied sooner.
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/reiverclassics --- link to the eBay shop the CD was bought from.
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/reiverclassics --- link to the eBay shop the CD was bought from.
past caring
The Cathars were right
Reviewing the reviews.....
Thought it might be interesting for the debate to take a look at some of the reviews (review the review, if you like). Thought I’d start with malatesta’s review – partly because it concludes with;
and partly because on this thread malatesta has confessed that he’s in the process of producing just such a corrective/setting the record straight book himself.
The review is, overall, complimentary and suggests Beating the Fascists to be a “must read”, despite malatesta’s reservations. So far, so good – but what of the actual reservations? It's worth focusing on these because they, presumably, provide the motivation for his feeling another book is required;
It’s London-centric
We’re told that the book concentrates on London to the exclusion of events in the North and Scotland and while there may be some truth in this (only some, because Manchester is covered in some detail and at some length) it doesn’t really consider the major reason for this – that the BNP’s main players and major political efforts were concentrated in London from around 1990 on.
It's a Red Action rather than anarchist version of events/the anarchist contribution is downplayed
Difficult to know what this means, exactly, as the point isn’t elaborated. Are events wrongly reported? If so, which ones? Is it a case of significant actions involving the Northern Network being omitted? If so, which ones? Was there a different anarchist political perspective about the role and purpose of AFA that is misrepresented? Groups and individual signed up to the founding statement, of course, but I’m unaware of any significant change in political tack until the Filling the Vacuum document – it’s true that this was drafted and proposed by London AFA, but it was only adopted nationally after going through the democratic structures for approval. Was FTV wrong? If so, how?
As an aside, it should be said that there’s a whole load of stuff (events and anecdotes) from London - where RA was stronger - that could have gone in the book – but only things that might have given flavour/added detail. And I’m not sure what would have been gained by their inclusion, given that other stuff that made it would have had to go in order to make room…..
the Tilzey/Hann stuff
Not entirely clear what malatesta’s actually saying here;
Is the sour taste left because of Tilzey’s relationship with Searchlight (i.e. “how could he do that to us?”) or by Beating the Fascists exposing that relationship? If the latter, what precisely is the objection? – is the case not proved (Tilzey actually admits the relationship) or does Malatesta believe it unimportant – i.e. it is/was fine to work with Searchlight in the way that Tilzey did?
My understanding is that the relationship between Tilzey and Searchlight was responsible (on more than one occasion) for Northern Network AFA mobilisations not being as successful as hoped for. Would seem a bit odd to be carping about NN not being given due prominence in the book whilst at the same time complaining that the book discusses one of the reasons why NN may not have reached its potential.
As for Hann – it’s been done to death, suffice to say that had he kept quiet and not written a book which attempted to paint the contribution of AFA and his erstwhile comrades out of the picture, the most anyone might have had to complain about was the omission of his positive contributions.
Overall, we’re left with the impression that though worthwhile, Beating the Fascists fails to deliver – but then we’re left to puzzle about the specifics. If another book is needed, what is it going to contain of significance that’s missing from BTF?
Thought it might be interesting for the debate to take a look at some of the reviews (review the review, if you like). Thought I’d start with malatesta’s review – partly because it concludes with;
and partly because on this thread malatesta has confessed that he’s in the process of producing just such a corrective/setting the record straight book himself.
The review is, overall, complimentary and suggests Beating the Fascists to be a “must read”, despite malatesta’s reservations. So far, so good – but what of the actual reservations? It's worth focusing on these because they, presumably, provide the motivation for his feeling another book is required;
It’s London-centric
We’re told that the book concentrates on London to the exclusion of events in the North and Scotland and while there may be some truth in this (only some, because Manchester is covered in some detail and at some length) it doesn’t really consider the major reason for this – that the BNP’s main players and major political efforts were concentrated in London from around 1990 on.
It's a Red Action rather than anarchist version of events/the anarchist contribution is downplayed
Difficult to know what this means, exactly, as the point isn’t elaborated. Are events wrongly reported? If so, which ones? Is it a case of significant actions involving the Northern Network being omitted? If so, which ones? Was there a different anarchist political perspective about the role and purpose of AFA that is misrepresented? Groups and individual signed up to the founding statement, of course, but I’m unaware of any significant change in political tack until the Filling the Vacuum document – it’s true that this was drafted and proposed by London AFA, but it was only adopted nationally after going through the democratic structures for approval. Was FTV wrong? If so, how?
As an aside, it should be said that there’s a whole load of stuff (events and anecdotes) from London - where RA was stronger - that could have gone in the book – but only things that might have given flavour/added detail. And I’m not sure what would have been gained by their inclusion, given that other stuff that made it would have had to go in order to make room…..
the Tilzey/Hann stuff
Not entirely clear what malatesta’s actually saying here;
Is the sour taste left because of Tilzey’s relationship with Searchlight (i.e. “how could he do that to us?”) or by Beating the Fascists exposing that relationship? If the latter, what precisely is the objection? – is the case not proved (Tilzey actually admits the relationship) or does Malatesta believe it unimportant – i.e. it is/was fine to work with Searchlight in the way that Tilzey did?
My understanding is that the relationship between Tilzey and Searchlight was responsible (on more than one occasion) for Northern Network AFA mobilisations not being as successful as hoped for. Would seem a bit odd to be carping about NN not being given due prominence in the book whilst at the same time complaining that the book discusses one of the reasons why NN may not have reached its potential.
As for Hann – it’s been done to death, suffice to say that had he kept quiet and not written a book which attempted to paint the contribution of AFA and his erstwhile comrades out of the picture, the most anyone might have had to complain about was the omission of his positive contributions.
Overall, we’re left with the impression that though worthwhile, Beating the Fascists fails to deliver – but then we’re left to puzzle about the specifics. If another book is needed, what is it going to contain of significance that’s missing from BTF?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
if its any use ive a few german mates who were active in anti fascist activity and defence work going way back , before and after the fall of the wall . Still at it too some of them . Theyve a few good stories . Liamo's met them a few times .
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
PC, thanks for taking the time to review the reviews. You say: ‘Overall, we’re left with the impression that though worthwhile, Beating the Fascists fails to deliver – but then we’re left to puzzle about the specifics. If another book is needed, what is it going to contain of significance that’s missing from BTF?’
The original review of BtF was written the day after i got the book – i read the thing in 2 goes, finished it and wrote the review. Since then i have reread it about 5 times – and some particular sections i have reread even more than that – and think it is a cracking read. The review certainly does not say it fails to deliver – as the accounts are very graphic and the arguments for militant action crystal clear! If i had to write the review again – which i wont - it would be more enthusiastic as i now think it is an absolutely essential book on non-sectarian antifascism and what can be achieved as well as it being a very important piece of ‘hidden history.’ Doing preliminary research into militant antifascism in the 20th C lends weight to the importance of BtF as many voices and experiences have gone undocumented. Look at the biblio of most militant antifash publications and you will see a serious lack – joe jacobs, 43 group, some moseley stuff and thats about it! BtF goes some way to redressing that and it will be on every reccomended reading list of antifascists everywhere, ie, this is how it was done! Im not going into the whole Tilzey/Hann thing as it is the whole of the affair that leaves a sour taste.
The ‘Malatesta’ book you refer to has only been sketched out in rough but the 1st part will hopefully look at militant antifascism, and particularly collate evidence of anarchist antifascism, in pre-1945 italy, germany/austria, france, UK, plus smaller sections on croatia, serbia, bulgaria, greece etc. The 2nd part will deal with post war UK – till 2012 antifascism again from an anarchist perspective as well as developments in europe. It will look at the decline of the BNP and the rise of the EDL and look at how militant antifascists can learn from the past in order to deal with the situation. So, it will situate contemporary, militant antifascism into an historical european context from an anarchist persepctive and hopefully draw on accounts from those who were there and still are there. Blimey, thats if it gets going. Got another book to finis before summer is over.
If anyone has any reccomended reading to help with the above, please let us know!
The original review of BtF was written the day after i got the book – i read the thing in 2 goes, finished it and wrote the review. Since then i have reread it about 5 times – and some particular sections i have reread even more than that – and think it is a cracking read. The review certainly does not say it fails to deliver – as the accounts are very graphic and the arguments for militant action crystal clear! If i had to write the review again – which i wont - it would be more enthusiastic as i now think it is an absolutely essential book on non-sectarian antifascism and what can be achieved as well as it being a very important piece of ‘hidden history.’ Doing preliminary research into militant antifascism in the 20th C lends weight to the importance of BtF as many voices and experiences have gone undocumented. Look at the biblio of most militant antifash publications and you will see a serious lack – joe jacobs, 43 group, some moseley stuff and thats about it! BtF goes some way to redressing that and it will be on every reccomended reading list of antifascists everywhere, ie, this is how it was done! Im not going into the whole Tilzey/Hann thing as it is the whole of the affair that leaves a sour taste.
The ‘Malatesta’ book you refer to has only been sketched out in rough but the 1st part will hopefully look at militant antifascism, and particularly collate evidence of anarchist antifascism, in pre-1945 italy, germany/austria, france, UK, plus smaller sections on croatia, serbia, bulgaria, greece etc. The 2nd part will deal with post war UK – till 2012 antifascism again from an anarchist perspective as well as developments in europe. It will look at the decline of the BNP and the rise of the EDL and look at how militant antifascists can learn from the past in order to deal with the situation. So, it will situate contemporary, militant antifascism into an historical european context from an anarchist persepctive and hopefully draw on accounts from those who were there and still are there. Blimey, thats if it gets going. Got another book to finis before summer is over.
If anyone has any reccomended reading to help with the above, please let us know!
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
CR, that wd be great if you can help out with european comrades (see above). the book is not going to get started until october at the earliest but we will no doubt be putting out appeals for - non-incriminating! - personal accounts as this is what makes BtF so readable (unlike a lot of more academic books). watch this space etc.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
'NN mobilisations not being as successful' Any evidence of my direct involvement in this?
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Or is this going to drag up all the usual bollox. If so just PM.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
malatesta: Im not going into the whole Tilzey/Hann thing as it is the whole of the affair that leaves a sour taste. [/QUOTE said:
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Are you saying Searchlight did not try to sabotage/manipulate NN mobilisations or are you merely invoking the 'holiday defence'?
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
My question was ' was I involved in what you allege happened' you dont know what issues I may have had at that time myself with them. Thats the problem...theres too much youve assumed I was involved in, responsible for etc etc When infact the biggest hassle was steering a middle line..which eventually I gave up on. Also your events re the Mike Nolan affair, the so called intelligence theft, and now me stitching up the NN, fuck me why do you think Im sceptical of your other allegations involving DH,PG etc . There is a context. I just wished you would have recognised the individual aspect of the situation and shown more compassion. Theres people on here who dont know me making assumptions about me who have absolutely no track record and who have trashed my contribution to anti fascism and politics generally. To you... fuck off. To my contempories circa 1980 I can have that debate.
PG? Who he? Hopefully Sumud can shed some light.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
joe the amused scepticism refers to 2 things: 1, that the review starts off saying that there will inevitably be differences in opinions:
'Any political biography from whatever quarter is going to involve some degree of score settling and any one version of events is inevitably disputed' - so the review warned that there will be different interpretations. the 'amused' part is that both No Retreat and BtF are very entertianing - i have said this about the BtF elsewhere and have long been a fan of Red Action/AFA's 'more colourful decsriptions' in RA and Fighting Talk. as i said, if i had to redo the review - which i wont - i would be much more effusive as i think it is an excellent book.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
While it might be alright to describe No Retreat as a political biography as it is the story of two individuals, who describe, not always honestly, their personal journey in the anti-fascist movement. Beating the Fascists (BTF) is not by any shade of the imagination a political biography: it is the history of AFA from start to finish pure and simple. There may be walk on parts by individuals who played a key part in its development, but AFA the organisation remains the star throughout.
From that perspective the job is to tell the true story of AFA first and foremost. If individual reputations (especially the carefully cultivated ones) get mangled along the way, then the book is actually doing its job. First and formemost history is about putting down the known facts. Obviously once the facts are established then they are certainly open to political interpretation, but the facts have to be established first.
As has been shown of here and elsewhere, No Retreat was neither motivated nor restricted by any such concerns or disciplines. It played fast and loose with the facts. Hann for instance cites events in Bury St Edmunds in the summer of 1986 and the smashing up of a NF meeting in Woolwich in early 1987 as the inspirations for his joining in - 1984!
However the most pernicious fiction was his assertion that it was not the BNP, but AFA, who threw in the towel in 1994. In short, it was according to Hann, AFA and not the BNP, that blinked.
For the best part of twenty years the entire anti-fascist movement has been operating on the principle that a) BNP never abandoned the streets b) it did do so, but only to regroup and that march and grow will be back in vogue any day now, and finally c) magic up a suitable replacement, such as the EDL, who tick all the right boxes in meeting the requirments of any anti-fascist movement, who would prefer not to get its hands dirty by dealing directly with working class communities, in the process of creating a political alternative to the self same BNP on the ground.
As you will no doubt be aware that is the sober political lesson in BTF. The siren call of No Retreat says the exact opposite; describing any such iniatives as "betrayal" motivated by "cowardice" which by coincidence or otherwise leads rather neatly to Hope not Hate, UAF and de facto support for the political status quo.
To sum up: BTF is a serious attempt at casting a light on a neglected area of political history. The other, (and in some eyes, rival) is in significant parts, a fiction.
In the meantime, with, for the first time since the Second World War, far-right parties topping opinion polls in France, Austria, and Finland, it would to my mind be doing the anti-fascist movement here and internationally a serious disservice to continue to equate the two.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Just finished reading Goodwins New British Fascism and despite what the 'anti fascist movement'desires there is no evidence in interviews with BNP members or within the evidence presented that a return to the streets is on the cards what so ever.What stands out in the book is the overwhelming w/class composition of the BNP and its success in what were traditional working class areas .Worth reading even if its only for the simple but effective process map that the BNP did for succesful community politics and the complete absence of any comment by Goodwin on state disruption of the BNP.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
joe, thanks for the considered reponse. i must say i would not equate the 2 books but only spoke of them as they are 2 of the very few books dealing with that time period. yr right, NR is a personal account, BtF is about AFA. you wrote:
'BTF is a serious attempt at casting a light on a neglected area of political history.' agreed. dunno if you have seen any of our posts on a 'malatesta' book on european militant antifascism here but hopefully this can contribute to the 'neglected area' as well. any ideas?
by the way, just seen this over on revleft. rather amusing!
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/07/08/notice-to-neo-nazi-thugs-best-to-read-before-attacking/
'BTF is a serious attempt at casting a light on a neglected area of political history.' agreed. dunno if you have seen any of our posts on a 'malatesta' book on european militant antifascism here but hopefully this can contribute to the 'neglected area' as well. any ideas?
by the way, just seen this over on revleft. rather amusing!
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/07/08/notice-to-neo-nazi-thugs-best-to-read-before-attacking/
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
colour-by-number pictures mebbe?
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
following the media 'success' of the EDL demos - and the not unimportant matter of all that lovely money the EDL leadership have creamed from their members - Nick Griffin did recently threaten a return to the streets for the BNP and more 'militant' behaviour. this sounded like desperation rather than anything else, trying to capitalise on the EDL popularity. the EDL get 500-1000 lads on the streets, something griffin can only dream about. nothing yet though!
You really think Nick Griffin would swap places with the EDL?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Griffin didnt threaten a return to the streets.What he did do was to say that the BNP should be at the forefront of anti muslim activity ie opposition to mosque building,grooming and any anti soldier protests.
The whole age range of the BNP,its investment in election software and its cadre training belies any thought that it could be returning to any 'march and grow' strategy.
The whole age range of the BNP,its investment in election software and its cadre training belies any thought that it could be returning to any 'march and grow' strategy.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
And do what?
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