Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[belboid]

What period is it? If it's the 90's then after my time. Although, I did attend one static demo, early 90's I think? Previous weeks people had been attacked selling papers, specifically a woman by a couple of fascists, who ripped papers out of her hand and made threatening gestures. The attacker and the incident was photographed and featured on the cover of Searchlight. The fascists made a showing at the static demo I attended, but were heavily outnumbered. A few verbal's and then they went. I know about the one car being torched. I also heard some member was followed home and while he was upstairs in the shower some fascists entered his home. He had a lucky escape, as they went when he came downstairs. Locking the door would have been the sensible option. SC's house attacked? Haven't heard that? How would barney_pig know about the Yorkshire ANL membership list being handed over, if it was? Gay couple being threatened? Not heard that? Cliff attacked? When and where was this? It got a bit dodgy for a short while.

Tihs largely happened just before, but mostly just after, I'd left Leeds. I remember the gay couple from the south of the city (where we didnt have that many members) were indeed threatened, and attacked onec, iirr. Not particularly badly, I dont think, but there were definite threats.

The Yorks ANL list did find its way into the hands of the police, word was someone just handed it over, but I find it very hard to believe it was Sue Clegg. I cant think of any attack on Cliff tho.

 

[past caring]

The trouble was there was much that went on that ordinary SWP members were not aware of - were actively kept in the dark about, in fact. Remember, there were no internal party structures that would allow ordinary members to share experiences with others in different parts of the country - everything went through the centre and it was before the days of access to e-mail lists/the internet.

The leadership at the time were very much wanting to downplay/deny that the fash were attacking the left/the party in any consistent way (didn't want squads a second time around, amongst other reasons) so denial of what was going on was de facto policy. I certainly wasn't aware of the stuff in Leeds, for instance - and I don't think anyone else in London outside of the leadership was, either (a few individuals who were in touch with friends may have been aware, but on that basis only - not because of it being communicated by the leadership). I was certainly aware of several attacks on members in London around 91-92 that were kept from the wider membership.

p.s. - this is not the first time I've heard of an incident involving Cliff (don't think it was on here I heard either) though it may have been no more than an attempt to attack a meeting at which he was speaking.

 

[ayatollah]

Nothing changes with the SWP or Left then...The inability of SWPers, and other Lefties generally, to believe that anyone would want to hurt them was sometimes quite astonishing. In other words for most Lefties Revolutionary politics was really just a posture, a lifestyle thing.

This incident may well have been covered in No Retreat, I forget, but in around 77/78 whilst simply en route to a favourite SWP pub on Deansgate in Manchester one evening for a drink a group of Squaddists spotted about 20 fascists armed with scaffolding poles lurking in a nearby alley, about to attack the pub. I vividly recall running into the pub and literally begging the 10 or so fellow SWPers inside to depart the pub pronto. Fortunately they did, but very slowly and grudgingly and obviously disbelieving that any rough types could possibly have their ill health in mind.

Fortunately in those days we were then able to give the Nazis , still surprisingly lurking in the alleyway, a very nasty surprise. Yeh, I think Tilzey does cover that bit in No Retreat.

Sometimes it was tempting to just stand aside and let such naïve Lefties get a good hiding – but the gain for fascist morale just couldn't be allowed.

 

[fiannanahalba]

Where is the evidence that Manchestre AFA are attempting to implement "The core point made in BTF, that the Left needs to get into real community based political action in the White Working Class at grass roots level . as with the IWCA initiative"

If anything it is stuck in a pastiche of the 1980s rhetoric of the original Manchester AFA rather than AFAs conclusion of the need for a political alternative in working class communities. ie MAFA have given out anti BNP leaflets, turned up to provide security at a Climate Change barbecue, made some T shirts and badges ( including Free Palestine one) , gone on a few anti EDL demos etc but no attempts at IWCA type work.

I might be mistaken , you might be looking at a pilot site . If I am tell me.

I dont disagree with that, in fact its spot on.

 

[Demu]

Ah Denis, I'm sure you though your family were ok until one of them stabbed.....well you know the story. I'd also say you though that informer and his child abusing brother were ok, oh actually, you still do!

Getting lonely over on Indymedia talking to all your aliases was it?

I don't think there has been any doubt over my political allegiances. If you have a problem then spit it out.

 

[Demu]

Denis, your jealousy over the success of Red Attitude and your failure to maintain it is sad. Move along sadman, the story is history.

More than happy to discuss the Red Attitude project with you; just one question, were you actively involved with it?

 

[audiotech]

The Yorks ANL list did find its way into the hands of the police, word was someone just handed it over, but I find it very hard to believe it was Sue Clegg. I cant think of any attack on Cliff tho.

barney_pig gave some details via pm. Of course it's just his word. I'll leave him to fill you in if he so wishes?

 

[bignose1]

The Knott Mill Pub...a couple of NF actually got inside briefly...but the rest pontificated..disastrous..pubs with narrow entrances and staircases can be defended quite easily and scaffolding poles arnt the best tools to have in such an environment...was told by KK that the poles came from outside the Town Hall which was being refurbished....how the fcuk did they get down to Deansgate with them without being spotted..maybe the pockets were deeper in them days...I forget.

Nothing changes with the SWP or Left then...The inability of SWPers, and other Lefties generally, to believe that anyone would want to hurt them was sometimes quite astonishing. In other words for most Lefties Revolutionary politics was really just a posture, a lifestyle thing.

This incident may well have been covered in No Retreat, I forget, but in around 77/78 whilst simply en route to a favourite SWP pub on Deansgate in Manchester one evening for a drink a group of Squaddists spotted about 20 fascists armed with scaffolding poles lurking in a nearby alley, about to attack the pub. I vividly recall running into the pub and literally begging the 10 or so fellow SWPers inside to depart the pub pronto. Fortunately they did, but very slowly and grudgingly and obviously disbelieving that any rough types could possibly have their ill health in mind.

Fortunately in those days we were then able to give the Nazis , still surprisingly lurking in the alleyway, a very nasty surprise. Yeh, I think Tilzey does cover that bit in No Retreat.

Sometimes it was tempting to just stand aside and let such naïve Lefties get a good hiding – but the gain for fascist morale just couldn't be allowed.

 

[barney_pig]

I pmed at cos details involved some names of people I still consider decent. The attack on cliff was the attempt to storm the public meeting that he was speaking at a theatre in Leeds city centre, only some spirited defence,largely by comrades who were shortly to be expelled and non members stopped the fash getting in. The details of the clegg issue were pretty common knowledge in the district att, I think that I was originally told by gyp, who was parachuted in as full timer at that time ( though he was quickly parachuted out again). I had been a Swp member in southampton, and the contrast with Leeds was striking, the permament,almost hereditary nature of the controlling clique and its ability to ride rough shot over anyone who threatened its absolute control. I have somewhere the complete documentation including ccc memos of the deliberate destruction of castleford branch at the behest of H & S, the Borgias of west riding,

 

[Random]

the attempt to storm the public meeting that he was speaking at a theatre in Leeds city centre, only some spirited defence,largely by comrades who were shortly to be expelled and non members stopped the fash getting in.

Don't understand how anyone can do this - expel people who've physically defended you. Surely building up trust and fighting alongside each other is what real political movements are built on?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Don't understand how anyone can do this - expel people who've physically defended you. Surely building up trust and fighting alongside each other is what real political movements are built on?

Welcome to the SWP!

 

[ayatollah]

The Knott Mill Pub...a couple of NF actually got inside briefly...but the rest pontificated..disastrous..pubs with narrow entrances and staircases can be defended quite easily and scaffolding poles arnt the best tools to have in such an environment...was told by KK that the poles came from outside the Town Hall which was being refurbished....how the fcuk did they get down to Deansgate with them without being spotted..maybe the pockets were deeper in them days...I forget.

I just remember the fascists getting a nasty shock lurking in the alleyway when some very noisy marine rocket flares were shot in amongst them from a passing car, bouncing all around them off the alley walls - broke up their determination somewhat ! "Ah the smell of rocket flares in the evening" to rework the Apocalypse Now quote !

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Don't understand how anyone can do this - expel people who've physically defended you. Surely building up trust and fighting alongside each other is what real political movements are built on?

I'm not suggesting for a second that the people who got expelled deserved it. God knows, the SWP was and is pretty trigger happy when it comes to booting out the uppitty. But in theory, there's absolutely no reason why being willing and able to swing a fist when necessary should get you special privileges if you flout the rules.

The real problem was the SWP's habitual use of expulsions to settle political disputes. Not the fact that some of the people expelled on one particular occasion were handy in a fight.

 

[gawkrodger]

I suppose this is the best thread for this

Brum RA and AFA member N.B. has been hospitalised after suffering a stroke.

Anyone who knows him who wishes to pass on a get well message pm me and I'll send you relevant contact info

 

[Fedayn]

Aye, DF mextioned this elsewhere.

 

[miktheword]

I'm not suggesting for a second that the people who got expelled deserved it. God knows, the SWP was and is pretty trigger happy when it comes to booting out the uppitty. But in theory, there's absolutely no reason why being willing and able to swing a fist when necessary should get you special privileges if you flout the rules.

The real problem was the SWP's habitual use of expulsions to settle political disputes. Not the fact that some of the people expelled on one particular occasion were handy in a fight.

the real problem wasn't just their tactical use of expulsions. Surely it had a lot to do with the fact that those who could fight were exclusively working class. Not where that party really orientates itself.

I've always believed as well, that if there ever is a revolutionary situation in this country, all ideas are turned upside down, and the revolting working class are not going to listen to a middle class leadership - no matter what party it comes from.

So, those vanguardists may as well give up.
never knew what made them tick anyway.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

the real problem wasn't just their tactical use of expulsions. Surely it had a lot to do with the fact that those who could fight were exclusively working class.

No reason why being working class should get you a free pass on the rules of a voluntary organisation either. The SWP are no more likely to expel their working class recruits than they are their middle class ones. They gave Workers Power their marching orders just as happily as they gave them to the proto-Red Action.

And anyway, experience at fighting is more skewed by gender than by class. The world has no shortage of beefy rugby playing ex-public school boys who know how to fight. In fact it could do with a few less!

 

[The39thStep]

Is the book right in pointing out that Militant pretty much abstained physically and then bottled out politically on the Isle of Dogs?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Is the book right in pointing out that Militant pretty much abstained physically and then bottled out politically on the Isle of Dogs?

I wasn't there, but I wouldn't trust Red Action's account of the actions or words of any other left group.

 

[Joe Reilly]

I wasn't there, but I wouldn't trust Red Action's account of the actions or words of any other left group.

Did Militant offer the working class an alternative to Labour and the BNP on the Isle of Dogs or not?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Did Militant offer the working class an alternative to Labour and the BNP on the Isle of Dogs or not?

I wasn't there and neither know nor particularly care. I trust the political and tactical assessments of Militant rather more than I'd ever trust the words of Red Action.

 

[past caring]

"Don't bore me with facts!"

 

[TopCat]

I wasn't there and neither know nor particularly care. I trust the political and tactical assessments of Militant rather more than I'd ever trust the words of Red Action.

Frame it someone.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

"Don't bore me with facts!"

More don't bore me with the predictable drivel from Red Action's past it pub bores. You can script in advance what they'll say about every other left group. And that they will have nothing to say about the failure of their own political project. How are those "pilot schemes' getting along, by the way? Aren't they an inherently more interesting subject than what tactical line Militant took in an East London ward years ago?

 

[The39thStep]

More don't bore me with the predictable drivel from Red Action's past it pub bores. You can script in advance what they'll say about every other left group. And that they will have nothing to say about the failure of their own political project. How are those "pilot schemes' getting along, by the way? Aren't they an inherently more interesting subject than what tactical line Militant took in an East London ward years ago?

To be fair I did ask the question re the isle of Dogs first

 

[Nigel Irritable]

To be fair I did ask the question re the isle of Dogs first

Don't worry, given that you've been a groupie for so long, you are a kind of honourary Red Action past it pub bore.

You've been an IWCA member/supporter/sympathiser for how long now? How often do you discuss the IWCA's failure to grow or maintain itself?

 

[The39thStep]

Don't worry, given that you've been a groupie for so long, you are a kind of honourary Red Action past it pub bore.

You've been an IWCA member/supporter/sympathiser for how long now? How often do you discuss the IWCA's failure to grow or maintain itself?

Not sure why you would say 'past it'
a) About eight years I guess. b)Recieve and contribute to weekly bulletins and welcome to discuss anytime.Start a new thread?

In the meantime seeing as you have joined this thread can you try and answer the question that I asked . Get in touch with HQ if you are unsure.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wasn't there and neither know nor particularly care. I trust the political and tactical assessments of Militant rather more than I'd ever trust the words of Red Action.

like the 'we're prepared to name names' comments of thomas sheridan and steven nally?

 

[Fedayn]

More don't bore me with the predictable drivel from Red Action's past it pub bores. You can script in advance what they'll say about every other left group. And that they will have nothing to say about the failure of their own political project. How are those "pilot schemes' getting along, by the way? Aren't they an inherently more interesting subject than what tactical line Militant took in an East London ward years ago?

In fairness it is an issue mentioned in the book that this thread is about. Hardly off topic or uninteresting in context.

 

[The39thStep]

In fairness it is an issue mentioned in the book that this thread is about. Hardly off topic or uninteresting in context.

Exactly and there are some political arguements in the book that are both challenging and are open to challenge