Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
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I don't often differ with you Uncle Rory , but on this occasion I must.
From the posts above it is clear that PK deliberately provoked, and readily encouraged, a bout of fisticuffs which he than failed to show for. Add that to his boastful lies, that neither he nor anybody else can actually provide even anecdotal evidence to back up, the n I can only conclude that...he would NEVER in a million years have been allowed to be even a supporting member of Red Action.
NOT because he is afraid of physical confrontation - there were many people over the years who were valued comrades and members of RA who were not 'up for a row' but had many other political and personal attributes that were just as important - but because he is a bragging, boastful, liar... who also happens to be a shithouse.
He won't even stand over his lies and fairy-tales on this board ffs, where he is hardly in danger of physical retribution, never mind IRL.
Walter Mitty types were avoided, ridiculed and ostracised by RA. Not because they were physical cowards, but because their lack of psychological resilience made them dangerous to the health and welfare - and ultimately the liberty - of their comrades.
From the posts above it is clear that PK deliberately provoked, and readily encouraged, a bout of fisticuffs which he than failed to show for. Add that to his boastful lies, that neither he nor anybody else can actually provide even anecdotal evidence to back up, the n I can only conclude that...he would NEVER in a million years have been allowed to be even a supporting member of Red Action.
NOT because he is afraid of physical confrontation - there were many people over the years who were valued comrades and members of RA who were not 'up for a row' but had many other political and personal attributes that were just as important - but because he is a bragging, boastful, liar... who also happens to be a shithouse.
He won't even stand over his lies and fairy-tales on this board ffs, where he is hardly in danger of physical retribution, never mind IRL.
Walter Mitty types were avoided, ridiculed and ostracised by RA. Not because they were physical cowards, but because their lack of psychological resilience made them dangerous to the health and welfare - and ultimately the liberty - of their comrades.
A VERY important point to be made LiamO - hopefully for due noting by any younger comrades who might get involved in the rougher side of things in the future
- as someone who served jail time directly because of the systematically made up lies of just such a fantasist (see the sad ,farcical , OK also funny, tale of the Rochdale Nine in BTW). I subsequently came across a number of other anti-fascist wannabees definitely suffered from Munchausen Syndrome during my time in anti fascist activity - their attention seeking fantasies and lies are an ever present danger to activists.
As also covered in BTF, some Searchlight personnel also suffered from seriously overactive imaginations - a real pain for anyone trying to sort out what the facts are and what info to trust as a guide to action.
Not that I ever met him , but it seems from info on this thread that Dave Hann of No Retreat fame was also of this ilk - dangerous, dangerous types. AVOID.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
ayatollah, i posted this in the EDL watch thread and was interested in your take - and indeed any of liam, cogg, ex red action/AFA - on strategies to deal with the EDL. anyway, this is what i wrote:
at their demos, the edl are escorted to and from by heavy plod, they thrive on publicity and all their publicity has been pretty negative regarding demos. any argy bargy with counter demos gives them slightly better publicity. however they have achieved nothing politically and seem destined to bus in, stand about, get pissed and go home. is it worth turning up to counter-demo? the uaf are as ever penned in and other miliant antifascists usually stay away from any kettling possibility. and to be honest, the AFA approach may not be the best one here - tho it obviously was before against the BNP. many edl are getting bored and skint from all this, there are factions - NWI, NEI, ENA etc - all after the same followers. this is not to say ignore the threat, but like with blackpool last week, is it worth bothering at the moment? should we just wait and see if it implodes? any ideas?
also love the idea that they are a human rights organisation - so surely they should believe in the right to worship freely for people - and also a non-profit organisation. this is because all the profits go to tommy and cocaine kev's powdery pastimes and trips abroad. anyone wanna buy a 2nd hand charleene badge? E-E-E dont care!
at their demos, the edl are escorted to and from by heavy plod, they thrive on publicity and all their publicity has been pretty negative regarding demos. any argy bargy with counter demos gives them slightly better publicity. however they have achieved nothing politically and seem destined to bus in, stand about, get pissed and go home. is it worth turning up to counter-demo? the uaf are as ever penned in and other miliant antifascists usually stay away from any kettling possibility. and to be honest, the AFA approach may not be the best one here - tho it obviously was before against the BNP. many edl are getting bored and skint from all this, there are factions - NWI, NEI, ENA etc - all after the same followers. this is not to say ignore the threat, but like with blackpool last week, is it worth bothering at the moment? should we just wait and see if it implodes? any ideas?
also love the idea that they are a human rights organisation - so surely they should believe in the right to worship freely for people - and also a non-profit organisation. this is because all the profits go to tommy and cocaine kev's powdery pastimes and trips abroad. anyone wanna buy a 2nd hand charleene badge? E-E-E dont care!
Deareg
Well-Known Member
Strange as I knew Dave very well and never found him to be anything of the sort, nor ever heard him described this way by any one else who knew him.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
I don't need to read any posts on here to know that Dave was not a fantasist I knew him very well for quite a few years and in all the time I spent in the company of other anti-fascists I never once heard of him referred to as such, I also attended his funeral along with hundreds of others which bore testimony to the respect and affection to which he was held.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I had a mate ( manager in a chemical works ) who was in Manchester DAM at the time who was without his specs was somewhat short sighted. Said friend attended Martyrs march and in the expectancy of some full and frank discussion with the oppo, engaged in such and found out that he had caused some collateral damage to one of his fellow members.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
What facts?
And fuck you and your piss poor attempt at sarcasm.
Maybe you two should take it to PMs?
Deareg
Well-Known Member
Already have.
Perhaps you should read post 642 as ayatollah suggests, as it contains plenty of facts. Then again perhaps you don’t need to. As you well know, Dave Hann did not join RA in 1984, but in 1988 as he was in the same branch as you. He was still in this branch in 1989, when he claimed to have relocated to Manchester in 1987. Indeed had he done so, then perhaps the ayatollah might have been able to place him.
He claimed AFA no longer existed in Manchester in 1987, yet strangely the relaunch does not take place until 1991. You were at the Swinging Sporran gig when AFA proved themselves to be more than alive and well 3 years after Hann claims in No Retreat that they were clinically dead.
The claim Hann makes repeatedly in No Retreat is of being an anti fascist activist for 12 years, ie from 1984 until 1996, whereas the reality was nearer to 6 years, after his arrest for mugging in 1994.
So in No Retreat we have a Dave Hann who doubles his service record from six to twelve years, places himself in at the start of AFA, does an additional 4 years on the street with London Red Action, and single handedly rebuilds Manchester two years before he actually arrives and in spite of it already having one of the strongest AFA branches in the country.
This platform building is to place Hann as the veteran activist who, further down the line, after being kicked out for mugging offences, can fabricate a dignified ‘political’ reason for leaving by blaming RA for the demise of AFA. Wonderful get out clause for Hann and indeed the stuff of fantasy, but interestingly this work is well beyond the reach of Hann, and in that sense, Deareg, I would agree with you. Hann was a stooge to the end, and sadly lived a lie that others now have to come to terms with.
More recently, in response to further threats of legal action from Louise Purdrick against Freedon Press, publishers of Beating the Fascists, the fabricated anti fascist CV claimed by Dave Hann in No Retreat has been sent to her legal representatives at Carter Ruck. You may be forgiven for thinking this would have given Louise Purdrick and indeed the co-author of No Retreat even more grounds to sue, but as yet the summons has not arrived.
Regards
Demu
Deareg
Well-Known Member
He may have got some dates wrong, I don't know as my own mind can be a bit hazy on dates too and you yourself even in your post have got some dates wrong, I moved down to london to join RA in Jan 87, Dave was, to my knowledge, already an established and trusted member, but he was certainly involved before me which would make it at least 86 not 88,
I can't remember for sure when he moved to Manchester either, I thought it was before I moved to Belfast which was 89 but I may be wrong, I will ask Louise to ask M his former partner and the reason that he moved up there, and while I don't know how weak M/C was I don't remember it being that strong either, as I recall on the night of the Swinging sporran and I can't remember for sure what year that was, (88?), we had only 4 stewards to begin with and when the fash turned up mob handed we had to do an emergency mobilisation which included one of my brothers who has never been politically active in his life, I am not saying that that was automatically indicative of how things were in M/C but I feel it does adds some weight to Dave's position.
What I do know for sure though, I knew Dave very well and he was no fantasist, he was as down to earth as any RA or AFA activists that I ever knew.
I can't remember for sure when he moved to Manchester either, I thought it was before I moved to Belfast which was 89 but I may be wrong, I will ask Louise to ask M his former partner and the reason that he moved up there, and while I don't know how weak M/C was I don't remember it being that strong either, as I recall on the night of the Swinging sporran and I can't remember for sure what year that was, (88?), we had only 4 stewards to begin with and when the fash turned up mob handed we had to do an emergency mobilisation which included one of my brothers who has never been politically active in his life, I am not saying that that was automatically indicative of how things were in M/C but I feel it does adds some weight to Dave's position.
What I do know for sure though, I knew Dave very well and he was no fantasist, he was as down to earth as any RA or AFA activists that I ever knew.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
For the frigging umpteenth time Im not involved in any legal shite with Farter Suck or whatever their name is. Get a grip Denis.
Pleased to hear that Steve, although after reading some of their correspondence, I could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
interesting if overexcitedly written piece on the ARA skins from USA.
http://www.citypages.com/2008-02-20/feature/skinheads-at-forty/
http://www.citypages.com/2008-02-20/feature/skinheads-at-forty/
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Inigo Montoya
Well-Known Member
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Initially all well and reasoned beginning with view digs at what at was Workers Power but as you read down the artiicle a complete abstention by the Weekly Worker politically. In other words let them do the fighting and we will patiently explain the politics .
A hilarious conslusion:
I can see a call for a vote for Labour on the cards
A hilarious conslusion:
I can see a call for a vote for Labour on the cards
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
They've already gone there.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
Demu, I got word back from Louise, M cant remember the exact date that Dave moved to M/r, but reckons it was 87 or thereabouts, I thought it was about 88 myself but she should know, M said that they had lived together for a couple of years before their daughter was born in 90,
Louise said that Dave was found not guilty in July 95 and left AFA sometime in 96 and was still contributing to Red Attitude up until Aug/Sep 96 and was in fact the editor of that issue which should be easily proved or disproved by getting hold of a copy as she reckons he is named in that issue, he then moved down to Brighton sometime in either 98 or probably 99, which makes his activity at least 10 years not 6 as you believe.
Take care.
I’m sure Pat Daly was a staunch republican in your opinion also, until to your cost, you found out he was actually a paid British agent. A revelation which would no doubt, cause you to fundamentally change your view of the man.
Likewise when the ‘down to earth’ Hann confessed his involvement in the mugging incident, and de facto his concealment of it from RA/AFA for up to a year, it fundamentally changed our view of him. Gone was the committed anti fascist, and revealed instead was an altogether different character.
Whilst I accept we can all be hazy on the dates, being out by 6 months or a year is understandable, however being out by up to four years, and also claiming to be in Manchester whilst actually in London for an additional two years can justifiably be read as the stuff of fantasy and not amnesia, unless, of course, there is a more compelling reason for the fabrication and the construct.
Let me highlight the 12 year anti fascist career that Hann claims in No Retreat which dates from 1984 when he claims he joined Red Action to 1996 when he left AFA.
1984. Joins Red Action
There is not a single anecdote or activity involving Hann in London Red Action in the years 1984, 1985, 1986 between the covers of No Retreat to support this.
The two events he claims inspired him to join RA occurred in summer 86 and Feb 87. The earliest possible date he could have joined RA is spring 87. Others involved at the time put his start date as late 1987 or early 1988.
1987. Moves to Manchester
There is not a single anecdote or activity involving Hann in Manchester AFA in 1987, 1988, and 1989 between the covers of No Retreat to support this.
The earliest date Hann uses in relation to his political work in Manchester is the relaunch of AFA in 1991. The gig at the Swinging Sporran, in early 1990, (or late 1989 according to BTF) which was organised by Hann, is omitted because it proves the existence of a strong physical force AFA group three years after Hann claims in No Retreat that it no longer existed and at least one year before he claims to have rebuilt it. This one incident alone sinks the Hann narrative.
In a previous post I have outlined some of the actions of Manchester AFA during 1987, 1988, and 1989, and whilst I can place Steve T, I cannot place Dave Hann because he was not there. He was in London as was yourself, and in the same branch of Red Action.
The period from when he was arrested to when he admitted his involvement in anti social activity, to when he was thrown out of AFA in July 1996, I have covered in some detail in other posts in this thread, which I’m sure you will have already read. I’m not sure as to what the relevance of how long he lived in Manchester after he ‘retired’ from RA/AFA is, but it certainly doesn’t contribute to his period of active service, and nor does he claim so in his book.
Following Hann’s departure from AFA, he announced that he was going to continue Red Attitude outwith AFA. Manchester AFA took a different line and he was replaced as editor in late July 96 after the last edition edited by him, was at the printers.
Dave Hann’s credible anti fascist career spans from his joining RA mid 87 to his arrest for a mugging offence and concealing it from RA and AFA in mid 94. And if Mark T (Dave Hann’s mugging partner), ever spilled the beans, then this credible period may well be reduced somewhat further.
That’s not the twelve years repeatedly claimed in No Retreat, that’s not even the ten you give him credit for, and the proof or lack of it is all contained in his book.
The only question that remains, is why Hann fabricated his CV, and who he colluded with in doing so, and if you have not worked that one out yet, I strongly suggest you read Beating the Fascists.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
I have already stated that when I moved to London in Jan 87 (of that date I am certain) Dave was already active in RA, so that rules out spring 87 and 88, I obviously can't comment on how long before me that he was active but it must have been at least 86.
I asked Louise to check with M on the Manchester dates and they were the ones that she gave me, so unless you are calling both Louise and M liars then you are wrong about your dates.
I am also certain that the gig in the swinging sporran was before 90 because I moved to Belfast in 89 (another date that I am certain of) I thought it was 88 but no point in me arguing that one because I have no way of checking.
Your last paragraph suggests to me that it is you who is the fantasist.
I asked Louise to check with M on the Manchester dates and they were the ones that she gave me, so unless you are calling both Louise and M liars then you are wrong about your dates.
I am also certain that the gig in the swinging sporran was before 90 because I moved to Belfast in 89 (another date that I am certain of) I thought it was 88 but no point in me arguing that one because I have no way of checking.
Your last paragraph suggests to me that it is you who is the fantasist.
Porkmeister
Member
Deareg,
Just a wee point of clarification on the dates re the Swinging Sporran night.
As much as you can remember when you moved to Belfast, I can also clearly remember when I moved to Manchester: October 1989.
I also remember a couple of months in dodgy jobs in Manchester before moving to London to work in March 1990
The night at the Swinging Sporran was my first purely AFA/anti fascist event. A night I’ll never forget.
I’m pretty sure you were back from Belfast for an extended stay…possibly looking for a bit of work??? Pretty sure you were doing a bit of circuit training at the time with N??
My second AFA event when I moved to England was Weavers Field after I moved to London to work. This was just as unforgettable as the Swinning Sporran. As much as I thought I knew what AFA was all about, I was certainly in no doubt after these two events.
The swinging sporran was definitely in between me moving to Manchester Oct 1989 and moving to London March 1990. And it was certainly after the Martyrs march that year. At the earliest it was Dec 89 and latest was Feb 90.
I was never as glad to see the local calvary coming over the hill that night, cos anyone there that night knew we needed it. And it was down to the local AFA people that we dug ourselves out a hole that night.
I certainly knew I was in at the deep end with AFA after both these events, as I said unforgettable. It’s also clear to me when they happened. I’m 100% on the dates.
I really can’t understand why Dave didn’t mention the night at the Sporran in No Retreat. This was the first event he organised when he moved to Manchester. Not only his starting point in Manchester AFA but mine as well. Why wouldn’t you mention that in your book?? Dave and me got involved in Manchester about the same time, and it was definitely 1989 and not 1987, as we both came onto the Manchester Martyrs Committee in 1989.
Just a wee point of clarification on the dates re the Swinging Sporran night.
As much as you can remember when you moved to Belfast, I can also clearly remember when I moved to Manchester: October 1989.
I also remember a couple of months in dodgy jobs in Manchester before moving to London to work in March 1990
The night at the Swinging Sporran was my first purely AFA/anti fascist event. A night I’ll never forget.
I’m pretty sure you were back from Belfast for an extended stay…possibly looking for a bit of work??? Pretty sure you were doing a bit of circuit training at the time with N??
My second AFA event when I moved to England was Weavers Field after I moved to London to work. This was just as unforgettable as the Swinning Sporran. As much as I thought I knew what AFA was all about, I was certainly in no doubt after these two events.
The swinging sporran was definitely in between me moving to Manchester Oct 1989 and moving to London March 1990. And it was certainly after the Martyrs march that year. At the earliest it was Dec 89 and latest was Feb 90.
I was never as glad to see the local calvary coming over the hill that night, cos anyone there that night knew we needed it. And it was down to the local AFA people that we dug ourselves out a hole that night.
I certainly knew I was in at the deep end with AFA after both these events, as I said unforgettable. It’s also clear to me when they happened. I’m 100% on the dates.
I really can’t understand why Dave didn’t mention the night at the Sporran in No Retreat. This was the first event he organised when he moved to Manchester. Not only his starting point in Manchester AFA but mine as well. Why wouldn’t you mention that in your book?? Dave and me got involved in Manchester about the same time, and it was definitely 1989 and not 1987, as we both came onto the Manchester Martyrs Committee in 1989.
well done. You have surpassed yourself.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Let me refer the jury to a previous post of yours:
Come on sumod put some meat on these bones, a bit ago you were telling us that everything would be revealed on indymedia weren't you or perhaps you could tell us all about your cv?
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