Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
- Start date
miktheword
Well-Known Member
think he spent much of his holiday youth in the Republic. I did have a copy if his autobiography 'The Eleventh Hour' I think; gave it to a fellow RA member; do think he says in the first chapter that he admired the irish fighting spirit and of course, their homogeneity race wise. Lauded those who'd fought for Britian in WW1 etc. Made a kind offer that he'd love to accept them back into the fold, once Britons had 'awoken' and they'd taken power.
also, wasn't (Steven?) Brady Irish?
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Brady is Irish yes.
To put all this talk of Irish Fascists in perspective... it is only fair to point out whilst there were many Irish people (especially british-born Irish people) involved in far-right groups, there was also a completely disproportionate amount of Irish ANTI-Fascist activists. Indeed at one stage, Irish ancestry was almost a prerequiste for Red Action membership.
Whilst many Irish people are fairly conservative Catholics socially, many of them were prominent in the Trade Union movement in britain from the Chartists onwards. This dichotomy of Irish emigrants and their descendants, being disproportionately represented in terms of political activity at both the left and right polarities was repeated in the US.
To the best of my knowledge this was also true of Jewish immigrant communities in Britain, in Europe and the US. I suspect that being immigrants and thus having no historical loyalty to the native ruling class or the 'host nation' made it easier for people to embrace Class allegiances over national ones and Internationalism.
Whilst many Irish people are fairly conservative Catholics socially, many of them were prominent in the Trade Union movement in britain from the Chartists onwards. This dichotomy of Irish emigrants and their descendants, being disproportionately represented in terms of political activity at both the left and right polarities was repeated in the US.
To the best of my knowledge this was also true of Jewish immigrant communities in Britain, in Europe and the US. I suspect that being immigrants and thus having no historical loyalty to the native ruling class or the 'host nation' made it easier for people to embrace Class allegiances over national ones and Internationalism.
Just to add...
Idiots, including some on here, often make ill-informed and ill-considered comment about Ireland's neutrality during WW2, as though WW2 was some kind of international anti-fascist crusade (a status it was IMO only awarded retrospectively, or at least during the war). In this contrived context Ireland's neutrality is depicted as being tacitly 'sympathetic' towards Fascism. This is bollocks, frankly.
The reality is that the Blueshirts received very short shrift, particularly from Republicans and the Irish were strongly, completely disproportionally, represented in the International brigades in Spain (whether they actually travelled there friom Ireland or with a british or american contingent)..
Idiots, including some on here, often make ill-informed and ill-considered comment about Ireland's neutrality during WW2, as though WW2 was some kind of international anti-fascist crusade (a status it was IMO only awarded retrospectively, or at least during the war). In this contrived context Ireland's neutrality is depicted as being tacitly 'sympathetic' towards Fascism. This is bollocks, frankly.
The reality is that the Blueshirts received very short shrift, particularly from Republicans and the Irish were strongly, completely disproportionally, represented in the International brigades in Spain (whether they actually travelled there friom Ireland or with a british or american contingent)..
past caring
The Cathars were right
Talking of the fash and Irish politics, does anyone else have any recollection of the following? (It was one of the funniest things I've ever experienced whilst engaged in political activity....)
This was either a Troops Out or Bloody Sunday march (think probably the former as the weather was always fucking awful for Bloody Sunday marches and this was a warm sunny day) sometime in the late 80s. Rumours had been flying about that the fash were planning something and as the march passed Marble Arch and started up the Edgeware Road we discovered that this was true - but not at all in the way we might have expected. At least one of this group of fash must have spent some time as a Maoist or WRPer, because their counter protest took the form of street theater - the barbarity of the IRA being displayed by a couple of the fash done up in bloodied bandages, attended by "doctors" in white coats and stethoscopes and a couple of nurses in blue dresses and sensible shoes.
The only trouble was the "nurses" were actually blokes, complete with wigs and Les Dawson style Cissie and Ada false knockers. Until the little mob that I was with arrived I think that this bit of street theater had been met only with the kind of polite derision you'd have have expected from the left. But we (although still just about in the SWP at the time) were from the rougher end of the market. Chants of "Get your tits out for the lads", "Do you take it up the arse?" and "Sex-case, sex-case, hang him, hang him, hang him" started up - to the absolute fury of the fash and to only slightly less anger from the SWP full-timers and branch officials in the vicinity.
This was either a Troops Out or Bloody Sunday march (think probably the former as the weather was always fucking awful for Bloody Sunday marches and this was a warm sunny day) sometime in the late 80s. Rumours had been flying about that the fash were planning something and as the march passed Marble Arch and started up the Edgeware Road we discovered that this was true - but not at all in the way we might have expected. At least one of this group of fash must have spent some time as a Maoist or WRPer, because their counter protest took the form of street theater - the barbarity of the IRA being displayed by a couple of the fash done up in bloodied bandages, attended by "doctors" in white coats and stethoscopes and a couple of nurses in blue dresses and sensible shoes.
The only trouble was the "nurses" were actually blokes, complete with wigs and Les Dawson style Cissie and Ada false knockers. Until the little mob that I was with arrived I think that this bit of street theater had been met only with the kind of polite derision you'd have have expected from the left. But we (although still just about in the SWP at the time) were from the rougher end of the market. Chants of "Get your tits out for the lads", "Do you take it up the arse?" and "Sex-case, sex-case, hang him, hang him, hang him" started up - to the absolute fury of the fash and to only slightly less anger from the SWP full-timers and branch officials in the vicinity.
That reminds me... during the war
.
On the Manchester Martyrs march the local plod (or Dibble, as the Mancs would have it) were somewhat hostile. Thus they would encourage loyalists and fash to get right in our faces, with the plod in between. They could pretty much do as they liked but any response from our side was often jumped on, thus we either wound them up - by wearing rangers scarves, singing 'fuck the pope' songs or 'The Billy Boys' - or we just had to just ignore them.
The free hand they were afforded often allowed the fash to whip themselves up into a demented, self-righteous frenzy. One scouse fella was thus infected and had decided PC (not past caring, but a comrade from Hatfield) was to be the special focus of his ire. ' See you. Yer fuckin dead. DEAD d'you hear me, SCUM? YER FUCKIN DEAD. i'M GONNA SLIT YOUR FUCKIN THROAT YOU FUCKIN SCUM. D'YOU HEAR ME, EH CUNT? SOON AS THIS MARCH IS OVER YOU FUCKIN SHIT CUNT TERRORIST BABY-KILLER SCUM .' etc etc. Pc just gritted his teeth, kept his eyes front and ignored him. The alternative was probably a nicking.
Yer man managed to keep this tirade up for a couple of minutes and even the old bill were beginning to get annoyed with his consistent raving. Now he was facing into the March from the side, so to keep up with PC he had to keep sidestepping and jumping which added to his demented little pixie look and, combined with his ranting, drew quite an audience.
All of which made it all the funnier when he took a giant sideways leap, straight into a concrete lampost - and knocked himself completely unconcious and splitting his face like a peach in the process. The whole March was held up cos no-one could walk for laughing, especially when one copper - amongst the chorus of raucous catcalls - who had been encouraging him, gave him a sly boot and told him 'gerrup you daft cunt your making a show of us'.
This set us off again worse than ever and yer man suffered the ignominy of coming to, being laughed at by chorus of 150 of his arch-enemies, whilst his comrades just shuffled away in embarrassment, trying to pretend he was nowt to do with them.
PC had to be half-carried for the next mile or so as he was rendered completely incapable of walking by hysterical laughter.
.
On the Manchester Martyrs march the local plod (or Dibble, as the Mancs would have it) were somewhat hostile. Thus they would encourage loyalists and fash to get right in our faces, with the plod in between. They could pretty much do as they liked but any response from our side was often jumped on, thus we either wound them up - by wearing rangers scarves, singing 'fuck the pope' songs or 'The Billy Boys' - or we just had to just ignore them.
The free hand they were afforded often allowed the fash to whip themselves up into a demented, self-righteous frenzy. One scouse fella was thus infected and had decided PC (not past caring, but a comrade from Hatfield) was to be the special focus of his ire. ' See you. Yer fuckin dead. DEAD d'you hear me, SCUM? YER FUCKIN DEAD. i'M GONNA SLIT YOUR FUCKIN THROAT YOU FUCKIN SCUM. D'YOU HEAR ME, EH CUNT? SOON AS THIS MARCH IS OVER YOU FUCKIN SHIT CUNT TERRORIST BABY-KILLER SCUM .' etc etc. Pc just gritted his teeth, kept his eyes front and ignored him. The alternative was probably a nicking.
Yer man managed to keep this tirade up for a couple of minutes and even the old bill were beginning to get annoyed with his consistent raving. Now he was facing into the March from the side, so to keep up with PC he had to keep sidestepping and jumping which added to his demented little pixie look and, combined with his ranting, drew quite an audience.
All of which made it all the funnier when he took a giant sideways leap, straight into a concrete lampost - and knocked himself completely unconcious and splitting his face like a peach in the process. The whole March was held up cos no-one could walk for laughing, especially when one copper - amongst the chorus of raucous catcalls - who had been encouraging him, gave him a sly boot and told him 'gerrup you daft cunt your making a show of us'.
This set us off again worse than ever and yer man suffered the ignominy of coming to, being laughed at by chorus of 150 of his arch-enemies, whilst his comrades just shuffled away in embarrassment, trying to pretend he was nowt to do with them.
PC had to be half-carried for the next mile or so as he was rendered completely incapable of walking by hysterical laughter.
I do appreciate having you old timers on here
I do appreciate having you old timers on here
oooooh, young maaaaan.
Just as well I pre-emptively posted Uncle Albert then, ain't it?
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
LiamO, past caring et al - thanks muchly for your posts, recollections etc on my Irish etc question - v interesting and have learnt some new stuff too
petee
no gods, no malarkey
the bloke in the middle and the one to the left ... related?
sadly more to the right. i'm often jealous of other ethnicities for their robust left tradition.
I dunno if they are related, I dunno who the fuck they are... just two more besuited bigots.
Much more interested in your second bit... can you be more specific? Country? Period?
Without some context, your post reads like 'white shame' to me... which is probably unfair, hence my request.
petee
no gods, no malarkey
context? you mean this of yours i quoted and reacted to?
so no "white", no shame, and no idea how you got to that.
my parents are from clare and mayo, viz ireland, and being raised in an intensely irish-american milieu i have noticed that many of my ilk grow up to be rightwingers. many fewer greenhorns/first-gen grow up to be leftwingers, prominent among whom recently might be mike quill, but for every quill there are/were ten of the other sort, certainly by now (viz late 20th/early 21st century, but the more recent arrivals might be changing that balance, i can't say for sure). the history of ee.gg. italian and jewish immigrants in america and their immediate descendants offers a much richer display of left participation. i'm jealous of that sometimes. on another chatroom i was really surprised to learn how many of the mods had communist parents and grandparents. i've come to my politics completely independently, as there is no such tradition in irish-american circles.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You are entirely correct that Ireland's neutrality was heavily biased in favour of the allies (eg: crashed German airmen were interned, crashed Allied airmen were given a lift to the border).
But you are playing down the significance of the Blueshirts. The Blueshirts were the largest fascist movement in the world (in proportion to population) not to succeed in taking state power. They were about the same size as the Mosleyites, in a country with a tenth of the population.
And the Irish were not noticeably disproportionately represented in the International Brigades, or at most were very slightly so in comparison to the British. There's an additional factor that many of the Irish volunteers were leaving a country where they had essentially no political prospects: After a move to the left, culminating in Saor Eire and ending with Church-led red scares, the IRA had shifted to the right. The breakaway left-republican Republican Congress had collapsed (O'Donnell, Gilmore, Ryan and their allies in the Communist Party were mostly to blame). They were, at least in part, the remnants of a broken political movement.
We were also the only country which sent more volunteers to Franco than to the Republican or Revolutionary forces. By a margin of about three to one. As you probably know, this was organised by O'Duffy's openly fascist National Corporate Party and associated Greenshirts, after he'd been removed from the Fine Gael leadership and then parted ways with that party.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Other immigrant communities in the US tended to bring left wing politics over with them, having come from communities which often had much stronger socialist traditions than Ireland. The Germans in the US in particular were the backbone of the early socialist movement there. For a substantial number of them, their politics were further affirmed by the hardships of the immigrant experience. The Irish, for the most part, lacked that framework.
There's more to it than that, of course. Another factor, of many, is the association of sections of the Irish immigrant community with the police and with patronage machine politics,.
Irish 250
british 1800-2000
(these are wikifigures)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brigades#Brigadiers_by_country_of_origin
Now I ain't no good at Maths, but the last time I checked the population of britain was substantially more than 8 times that of Ireland.
Also the british figure will include many of Irish descent as 'british' (as the US one will claim them as septics). When you factor in the fact that britain was a highly industrialised (and Trade Unionised) nation and Ireland was a largely rural one with a proportionally much smaller trade union movement (and an essentially conservative social tradition) then the figures for Ireland become more remarkable.
As fr your disingenuous reference to the numbers 'sent' to aid Franco... a little explanation as to how many of these Blueshirt Tourists actually fired a gun in anger might be a better illustration.
There is much to debate in your post, but your maths will have to do for tonight.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Taking those figures at face value (and you shouldn't, because the Irish number is unreferenced and the British number comes from a 50 year old book which has now been superceded), the "disproportionality" amounts to 5:4. That isn't significant, particularly when you are dealing with such small numbers. Those numbers also don't take into account British people who fought with forces other than the International Brigades (ILPers fought with the POUM militias, anarchists fought with the anarchist militias). Almost no Irish people fought with the militias although Paddy Trench, for example, was with the POUM in a non-combat role.
If I recall correctly, none of the serious research on the subject (McGarry's book, Stradling's book or Ciaran Crossey's website) reaches 250 in their estimates of the Irish combatants. And the numbers listed in O'Riordan's Connolly Column were substantially lower (although that's to be expected as O'Riordan had less access to the full picture).
Overall I'd guess that the numbers of people coming from Britain and from Ireland to fight for the Republicans or assorted Revolutionary militias was quite close to proportional, with the Irish maybe having a slight edge.
Liam0 said:
There was nothing disingenuous in my comment.
Over 600 Irish men went to Spain to fight for Franco in a crusade organised through a fascist party. They barely saw combat and performed exceptionally poorly when they did (mostly with forces on their own side, due to confusion and mistaken identity) but that's not relevant to this discussion. Ireland produced substantially more people willing to go to Spain with the intention of fighting for the Francoists than it did people willing to go to Spain with the intention of fighting for the International Brigades.
That's simply a matter of historical fact and it should hardly come as a surprise given the conservatism and piety of Irish society at the time. The Irish media was almost hysterically pro-Franco as was the Church. Those going to fight for Franco were sent off as heroes (although they came back to substantially less fanfare after their ignominious performance).
Liam0 said:
I have no idea why you are being so confrontational.
Yep I hope no one thinks I was being sarky, I do appreciate them.
I just assumed you were having a bit of craic, which is to be expected (and indeed welcomed) whenever us old cunts start reminiscing.
I don't think I am being confrontational, I just disagree fundamentally with your interpretation of events, numbers and the significance thereof. You think I am 'playing down' the significance of the Blueshirts, I think you are playing it up - by affording them a status that their actions do not deserve. Their 'crusade' was more of a Legion of Mary Jolly-boys outing than a proper campaign which just about sums up their standing amongst european fascists who regarded them as a joke. Irish anti-fascist volunteers on the other hand had an excellent and well deserved reputation as fighters and as comrades.
The 'historical fact' is that from a (comparatively) very small pool of left-wing political activists (in a largely rural, non-unionised population) Ireland produced a disproportionate number of anti-fascist volunteers. High numbers of blueshirt crusaders/tourists (no matter how fuckin incompent, naieve and politically unaware the majority of them may have been) does not disprove my theory, it actually substantiates it.
Look, I have no intention of taking this thread off on a tangenital bunfight. If you'd like to pursue this, do feel free to start a thread.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
there was an irish contingent of the international brigades which frank ryan was attached to. then he ended up in germany after some convoluted adventures. in the film the eagle has landed, donald sutherland's character is based on frank whose story is well worth a read.
as far as emigration and radical politics is concenred there are at least 2 noticable strains regarding politics: that the emigration experience radicalises people in the face of hostility or the natural inclination to hang out with ones folks, usually consolidated for a lot of irish expats in places like republican pubs or irish centres; and that, especially in the case of the sri lankan communist journalist i worked with years ago, people have to flee because of their radical politics. my mate ended up living in a 1 room hostel with his wife and kids in fear for his life. theres more to be said on this for sure.
in bernard o mahoney's hateland he talks of his dilemma over the far right's anti-irishness - being part irish himself - and he mentions that many of his mates were, like a lot of the UK's population, of irish descent. he also gets the name of red action wrong - red army faction indeed - and describes using mobile phones on actions several years before folks had such a thing as they were rare, huge and expensive.
the pro-republican marches could be very lively. we went up to manchester for either a manchester martyrs or troops out march which featured the usual loyalist/fascist hecklers. a brave few who tried to attack the march and as usual we had a lot of handy republican, red action and afa stewards who were on hand to bounce them across the pavement. the cops were extremely nervousand the fash ended up worse off. we marched under what was the arndale centre bridge when the leading republican band stopped and played with all its might, the sound echoing across the city. one of the most exciting things i have ever heard. it must have freaked plod and the fash right out. good times. mal o'testa.
as far as emigration and radical politics is concenred there are at least 2 noticable strains regarding politics: that the emigration experience radicalises people in the face of hostility or the natural inclination to hang out with ones folks, usually consolidated for a lot of irish expats in places like republican pubs or irish centres; and that, especially in the case of the sri lankan communist journalist i worked with years ago, people have to flee because of their radical politics. my mate ended up living in a 1 room hostel with his wife and kids in fear for his life. theres more to be said on this for sure.
in bernard o mahoney's hateland he talks of his dilemma over the far right's anti-irishness - being part irish himself - and he mentions that many of his mates were, like a lot of the UK's population, of irish descent. he also gets the name of red action wrong - red army faction indeed - and describes using mobile phones on actions several years before folks had such a thing as they were rare, huge and expensive.
the pro-republican marches could be very lively. we went up to manchester for either a manchester martyrs or troops out march which featured the usual loyalist/fascist hecklers. a brave few who tried to attack the march and as usual we had a lot of handy republican, red action and afa stewards who were on hand to bounce them across the pavement. the cops were extremely nervousand the fash ended up worse off. we marched under what was the arndale centre bridge when the leading republican band stopped and played with all its might, the sound echoing across the city. one of the most exciting things i have ever heard. it must have freaked plod and the fash right out. good times. mal o'testa.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You are trying to have it both ways here. The whole point I'm making is that Ireland was a deeply conservative and religious society at the moment and that its left was small and weak, while its radical right was considerably stronger.
The Blueshirts are considered a joke because (a) they failed completely and (b) it suits Irish right wingers to play down their significance and seriousness to protect the historical standing of Fine Gael and of Irish conservatism in general. So they are often treated as if they were not really part of the European fascist movement or were not really to be taken seriously at all. In fact, they were an extremely large political movement by the standards of 20th Century Ireland and in relative terms a much larger and more serious operation than the Moseleyites.
That Ireland produced many more people who were willing to fight for Franco than it did International Brigaders reflects the deep conservatism of Irish society at the time. The entire Irish media supported Franco as did popular opinion. You are right that Ireland's small, weak, politically marginal left sent a surprising number of volunteers to Spain. That was partly because it consisted in large part of very serious people, with a somewhat militarist tradition and partly precisely because the Republican left was so politically marginal that there didn't seem to be much of use to do at home so much of the cadre went where there seemed to be something important at stake.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Who was the we at the time? I somehow had you down as an about late twenties anarchist for some reason
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
F'king hell Nigel Irritable accusing someone of being confrontational !
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
young shavers!
ha ha thanks mate. theres a few malatestas now (as well as nana-testa and all the little mini-testas!). age range - various. have to be careful with details for obvious reasons!
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
you could sort of hint who the we was though ie political grouping?
petee
no gods, no malarkey
which attitudes came over to the states.
1: 19th c. immigrants were better politically.
2: there was a degree of clericalism/jansenism among the irish which the italians didn't have (and which obv. doesn't apply to jews, whose religious tradition seems to contain a degree of argumentation unknown to catholics) and which was expressed also other socio-politcal fields. the mother was/is almost psychotically devoted to the idea of hierarchies, as were her peer group.
Similar threads
