Baby Reindeer (Netflix)
- Thread starter Voley
- Start date
Epona
Sonic: 1 Nov 2006 - 8 Jan 2022
Yeah, I don't see how something being #1 = a fun ride?
Yeah they must never have looked at Netflix ratings before, because I am fairly confident that a lot of their #1s have been about serial killers or weird cults or con artists!
Not "fun" stuff
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
There’s an interesting discussion on the The Rest is Entertainment podcast today, where they both agree that had this been on either the BBC or ITV it wouldn’t have been released as it is, and much more precautions would have been taken to hide the stalkers identity.
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story
Changing the facts
tommers
Fuck it, it's fine.
We finished it last night. Gonna watch a comedy next. Nothing good happened to anybody in that series. Well, apart from ten seconds of walking through the woods.
You don't have to. I'd probably rather I hadn't tbh.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Whoops. ITV.
Voley
🐀
Yep. Some of their best stuff's grim but compelling. I'm thinking of Making A Murderer, The Jinx, stuff like that.
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
I thought the same. I wondered about Richard Gadds need for drama and toxic attraction , and if this was just more of his pattern playing out? - it was spoken about several times in the show.
story
Changing the facts
And if this is the case, to some extent he’s still being exploited. By the system that demands drama and ratings. His own damage and self harm tendencies are gleefully abstracted (through his own means) and sold and sold and sold again.
It’s a horrible extreme reiterative shit show. End of the pier stuff.
I’ve not finished the series but the way it’s being poked and prodded in the public kaleidoscopic lens while it’s playing out in real time feels kinda meta.
Nanker Phelge
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
I don't think there's anything massively complex about the decision to turn this show in a TV drama. It was an Olivier award winning West End stage show which received rave reviews.
I am sure the producers saw something akin to Fleabag and felt they would have a hit with it. I really don't think Gadd has been exploited in any way. He was telling this story every night up on a London stage; His stage just got world wide. No doubt what many many writers dream about.
Some of this thread reads like victim blaming/shaming. He didn't ask for any of what happened to him, but he is making a career out of it. That's what writers do. He doesn't owe anyone anything, unless he gets sued.
He made himself out to a be a dickhead in the show, and he probably is. Most of the people I know who stand on a stage for applause are not that wonderful to be around during daylight hours. They still don't deserve to have horrible things happen to them.
Does he enjoy the drama? Yeah, and he has written one in which he tells us that he does.
I am sure the producers saw something akin to Fleabag and felt they would have a hit with it. I really don't think Gadd has been exploited in any way. He was telling this story every night up on a London stage; His stage just got world wide. No doubt what many many writers dream about.
Some of this thread reads like victim blaming/shaming. He didn't ask for any of what happened to him, but he is making a career out of it. That's what writers do. He doesn't owe anyone anything, unless he gets sued.
He made himself out to a be a dickhead in the show, and he probably is. Most of the people I know who stand on a stage for applause are not that wonderful to be around during daylight hours. They still don't deserve to have horrible things happen to them.
Does he enjoy the drama? Yeah, and he has written one in which he tells us that he does.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
He doesn't deserve a kicking for telling his story. But Netflix just might for letting him tell it in a way other people get hurt.
tommers
Fuck it, it's fine.
Yes, it feels like I've been dragged into it now somehow. I don't particularly like that.
There are lots of things about it that make me very uneasy.
story
Changing the facts
You’re conflating wants to make art out of his trauma with drama-lama who’s asking for it.
Or you’re assuming that I’m making that conflation.
I’m not victim blaming. If it looks like I am, then I’m glad to have to opportunity to say otherwise.
Of course he doesn’t deserve the bad shit that happened. No one does. The onus is absolutely on the perpetrators. I’m not even sure how you got the impression I meant anything other than that.
But the abusive dynamic is so so complicated. That’s one of the things that this show is exploring. And It’s really fucking courageous to do that. And I think it could be a watershed moment in the way that public opinion evolves and expands its perception of how the abusive dynamic can develop.
The thing is, for every assault that gets charged, there are thousand and thousands that don’t. The CPS don’t charge if they don’t think the charge will stick. We only get to hear about the worst and most aberrant abuses and assaults. The stats do not reflect the reality of the situation.
When someone calls the cops and reports DV, they’re obliged to arrest. If the CPS says the charge won’t stick, they’re let go. If you go into a police station to report something, they won’t even let you make a statement unless you’ve got some kind of evidence. So the perpetrator goes free. They’ve now learned where the line is and they have a better idea of how to get away with what they’re doing.
There is an enormous unknown number of assaults and abuses going on that never even get reported. Then there’s the huge number of gender based assaults that get report3d and never get charged. Then there are the ones that get charged and tried, and then there’s the small number of cases that get found guilty. It’s only the worst, most obvious, hardest to ignore cases that ever get to court. Under that tip-of-the-iceberg is a vast number of people being fucked over in gender based / intimate partner crimes. This show helps that below the horizon bullshit to finally get glimpsed.
Me trying to understand why Gadd has made this show is me wondering about his courage, his determination, the ambition and impetus that compelled or allowed him do this really hard difficult brave thing. He’s really put his neck on the line here. I’m full of admiration for him. I’m also puzzled about why or how, what’s enabled or compelled him to go into territory that’s not been broken before.
Is it just courage, only ambition, or is it also some kind of self harm thing, putting himself in the way of danger, putting himself in the line of fire. If so, then is he equipped to keep himself safe.
I’m musing, I’mpondering. Him putting it into the public realm gives me permission to do that. In fact, it demands that we all think about this, all aspects of it. It’s really complex and really complicated, and Gadd has asked us to recognise the complexity of it.
I agree that he’s taken a hit show to the next level via normal routes and channels of success. And I’m sure he feels gratified, validated, vindicated, delighted and sated (although I suspect he also feels kind queasy about what’s also happening at the personal level). And I hope he gets shit tonnes of money and a successful career out of this. But those channels are necessarily exploitative. Person tells a story, agent manager theatre channel production all push it so that the pie can expand, so their cut can expand. By the end point the original creator is a small part of the picture. You have to be at Taylor Swift or Madonna level to really be the emperor of your own pile of cash.
I’m not saying he owes anything to anyone, least of all his abusers. (I find it interesting that the woman abuser is getting the pile on while the male abuser is still anonymous and thus more safe.)
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Nanker Phelge
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Just because my post was under yours doesn't mean it was directed at you. It wasn't. I was commenting on the general thread direction.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Absolutely.
it's being driven by the tabloid press and social media. I hope the stalker woman can keep quiet and keep her head down long enough for the storm to blow over. Otherwise she's going to have a very unpleasant time. I don't feel much sympathy for her though.
I really admire Richard Gadd for telling his story.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
absolutely agree
Gromit
International Man of Misery
I suspect (only guessing) that no matter how well he disguised her she'd have popped up and outted herself. Claiming this or that didn't happen.
What they'd consider as fabrications to protect her or for dramatic effect, she'd consider lies.
When you are that obsessed how could you help yourself?
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
More stuff here (the link is not to DM but rather an archived version of the article behind a paywall)
The main points...
'People in the industry know who the "rapist" is': As Baby Reindeer is picked apart by online sleuths, we reveal exactly what is true, what's embellished... and what's pure fictionBy CLAUDIA CONNELLPUBLISHED: 20:46 EDT, 1 May 2024 | UPDATED: 20:54 EDT, 1 May 2024
Gadd, now 34, is re-enacting a period from his early 20s when he was the victim of both a stalker and a rapist. Gadd dieted down to 10 and a half stone to play his skinny, tormented, neurotic younger self.
Like Donny, Gadd is a Scottish stand-up, originally from Fife, the middle-class son of a microbiologist dad and secretary mum. He graduated from Glasgow University with a degree in English literature and theatre studies.
Although Gadd did move to London and work in a pub, his comedy gigs were more successful than Donny's — although Donny tells many of the same jokes Gadd has used in his own comedy routines.
Gadd won the New Act of the Year Award at the Edinburgh Fringe in 2010 when he was just 21 and unlike Donny — who regularly played to empty pubs and unamused audiences — YouTube videos show Gadd's comedy was popular and well-received from early on in his career.
Played by actress Jessica Gunning, 38, Martha is depicted as an older, overweight Scot with brown curly hair, who says she's a lawyer and makes fanciful claims about having a huge salary (despite not being able to afford a drink), famous contacts and homes dotted around the world. Prior to broadcast, Gadd was insistent that he and Netflix had done all they could to make the TV character different from the real stalker, saying: 'We've gone to such lengths to disguise her, I don't think she'd recognise herself.'
Gadd explained that he had to make the character of Martha different from the real Martha for 'legal reasons', but added that what he was looking for was an actress who could capture that 'kind of energy'. However the woman believed to be the real Martha is also an older, overweight Scottish woman with brown, curly hair and a law degree.
The woman, whom the Daily Mail is choosing not to name, is 58, originally from Stirling, and lives in a council flat in London.
Social media users have uncovered the woman's obsessive tweets to Gadd from 2014, her demands to know whether he received her letters and gifts, and her boasts that she has a 26-year-old 'toyboy'. There are also tweets where she makes a reference to 'hanging her curtains' — the same phrase (used as sexual innuendo) in Baby Reindeer.
The 'real Martha' gained a law degree from Dundee University and began working as a trainee solicitor. Over the past fortnight she has written a series of angry and confused Facebook posts denying Gadd's portrayal of her as a stalker and told the Mail in an interview that she is now the victim. This week she claimed she will be doing a TV interview to tell her side of the story.
Not only is it based on real life events, the lead actor and scriptwriter Richard Gadd is the person it happened to
Donny Dunn is shown working as a barman at a London pub called The Heart, the place where he first encounters Martha.
Many believe the pub where Gadd actually worked and met the real Martha is The Hawley Arms in Camden, North London. The hipster venue was highly popular at the peak of the Britpop scene, and regulars included Amy Winehouse, Kate Moss and Noel and Liam Gallagher.
Neither Gadd nor staff have confirmed he ever worked there, but that hasn't stopped fans of Baby Reindeer flocking there, especially after the 'real Martha' wrote Facebook posts about visiting The Hawley Arms and made accusations about its staff.
'It's very emotionally true,' says Gadd of the Netflix series. 'I was severely stalked and severely abused. But we wanted it to exist in the sphere of art and protect the people it's based on.'
Martha is shown deluging Donny with emails. Gadd claims to have received more than 41,000 as well as 350 hours of voicemail messages, 744 tweets, 46 Facebook messages (from four separate accounts) and 106 pages of letters.
As in the show, the real Martha disrupted Gadd's comedy gigs and targeted his family. She accused his father of being a paedophile and obsessively called his parents and their places of work.
Gadd says: 'My biggest regret is putting my parents through some of the things I put them through. I couldn't help it, but I feel bad about it. I regret the worry I've caused them.'
In the show, Donny's dad reveals he was sexually abused by a priest — but Gadd hasn't spoken about his own father's experience.
Gadd says that his parents were his 'biggest fans' and that his dad was 'chuffed to bits' when discussing the emotive scene.
The main points...
'People in the industry know who the "rapist" is': As Baby Reindeer is picked apart by online sleuths, we reveal exactly what is true, what's embellished... and what's pure fictionBy CLAUDIA CONNELLPUBLISHED: 20:46 EDT, 1 May 2024 | UPDATED: 20:54 EDT, 1 May 2024
1. The real Donny Dunn
No amateur sleuthing is required to learn that the main character in Baby Reindeer, Donny Dunn, is Richard Gadd, who plays himself and wrote the series.Gadd, now 34, is re-enacting a period from his early 20s when he was the victim of both a stalker and a rapist. Gadd dieted down to 10 and a half stone to play his skinny, tormented, neurotic younger self.
Like Donny, Gadd is a Scottish stand-up, originally from Fife, the middle-class son of a microbiologist dad and secretary mum. He graduated from Glasgow University with a degree in English literature and theatre studies.
Although Gadd did move to London and work in a pub, his comedy gigs were more successful than Donny's — although Donny tells many of the same jokes Gadd has used in his own comedy routines.
Gadd won the New Act of the Year Award at the Edinburgh Fringe in 2010 when he was just 21 and unlike Donny — who regularly played to empty pubs and unamused audiences — YouTube videos show Gadd's comedy was popular and well-received from early on in his career.
2. The real Martha
It took internet sleuths a matter of days to unmask the identity of Gadd's real-life stalker, who goes by the name of 'Martha' on the show.Played by actress Jessica Gunning, 38, Martha is depicted as an older, overweight Scot with brown curly hair, who says she's a lawyer and makes fanciful claims about having a huge salary (despite not being able to afford a drink), famous contacts and homes dotted around the world. Prior to broadcast, Gadd was insistent that he and Netflix had done all they could to make the TV character different from the real stalker, saying: 'We've gone to such lengths to disguise her, I don't think she'd recognise herself.'
Gadd explained that he had to make the character of Martha different from the real Martha for 'legal reasons', but added that what he was looking for was an actress who could capture that 'kind of energy'. However the woman believed to be the real Martha is also an older, overweight Scottish woman with brown, curly hair and a law degree.
The woman, whom the Daily Mail is choosing not to name, is 58, originally from Stirling, and lives in a council flat in London.
Social media users have uncovered the woman's obsessive tweets to Gadd from 2014, her demands to know whether he received her letters and gifts, and her boasts that she has a 26-year-old 'toyboy'. There are also tweets where she makes a reference to 'hanging her curtains' — the same phrase (used as sexual innuendo) in Baby Reindeer.
The 'real Martha' gained a law degree from Dundee University and began working as a trainee solicitor. Over the past fortnight she has written a series of angry and confused Facebook posts denying Gadd's portrayal of her as a stalker and told the Mail in an interview that she is now the victim. This week she claimed she will be doing a TV interview to tell her side of the story.
3. The pub where it all began
Not only is it based on real life events, the lead actor and scriptwriter Richard Gadd is the person it happened to
Donny Dunn is shown working as a barman at a London pub called The Heart, the place where he first encounters Martha.
Many believe the pub where Gadd actually worked and met the real Martha is The Hawley Arms in Camden, North London. The hipster venue was highly popular at the peak of the Britpop scene, and regulars included Amy Winehouse, Kate Moss and Noel and Liam Gallagher.
Neither Gadd nor staff have confirmed he ever worked there, but that hasn't stopped fans of Baby Reindeer flocking there, especially after the 'real Martha' wrote Facebook posts about visiting The Hawley Arms and made accusations about its staff.
4. The scale of the stalking campaign
In Baby Reindeer Donny tells the police his stalker has been pursuing him for six months. In real life, Gadd was targeted for more than four years.'It's very emotionally true,' says Gadd of the Netflix series. 'I was severely stalked and severely abused. But we wanted it to exist in the sphere of art and protect the people it's based on.'
Martha is shown deluging Donny with emails. Gadd claims to have received more than 41,000 as well as 350 hours of voicemail messages, 744 tweets, 46 Facebook messages (from four separate accounts) and 106 pages of letters.
As in the show, the real Martha disrupted Gadd's comedy gigs and targeted his family. She accused his father of being a paedophile and obsessively called his parents and their places of work.
Gadd says: 'My biggest regret is putting my parents through some of the things I put them through. I couldn't help it, but I feel bad about it. I regret the worry I've caused them.'
In the show, Donny's dad reveals he was sexually abused by a priest — but Gadd hasn't spoken about his own father's experience.
Gadd says that his parents were his 'biggest fans' and that his dad was 'chuffed to bits' when discussing the emotive scene.
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girasol
Addicted to handstands!
5. Has Martha stalked others?
Donny is shown searching Martha's name online and discovering that she has a history of stalking, having tormented a barrister with a disabled child and her husband.This week lawyer Laura Wray came forward to reveal that Martha had stalked her and her family for five years.
Laura gave Martha a two-week trial as a trainee solicitor at her legal practice but fired her after a week because of her rude and confrontational behaviour.
This week lawyer Laura Wray (pictured) came forward to reveal that the person Martha is based on had stalked her and her family for five years
After her dismissal, Martha began to bombard the legal practice with threatening phone calls, to the extent that staff were issued with panic alarms. She also made death threats to Laura's now deceased husband, Jimmy Wray, a Labour MP.
Things came to a head when Martha contacted social services to falsely claim that Laura was hitting her then four-year-old disabled son Frankie.
Under the Scottish court system, Laura was able to take out a restraining order against Martha.
On her Facebook page, the woman thought to be the 'real Martha' has since claimed Laura stalked her.
6. Did Martha ever go to prison?
In the series, Martha pleads guilty to three counts of stalking and harassment. She receives a nine-month prison sentence and a five-year restraining order.In real life, Gadd did not want his stalker to go to jail and she was never convicted of stalking in relation to him.
He says: 'I didn't want to throw someone who was that level of mentally unwell in prison.'
Gadd did report his stalker to the police and said the matter is now 'resolved', but has not explained how.
7. The grooming and rape
On screen Donny is shown being groomed by a high-flyer in the comedy world, who initially positions himself as a mentor.The man, Darrien O'Connor, meets him at a party at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival and offers to help with Donny's career. Donny starts to visit Darrien's flat where the pair experiment with drugs, including acid and GHB, before Darrien sexually assaults and rapes Donny in the show's fourth episode.
Gadd claims he was raped by a senior figure in the comedy world but never reported the incident to the police or named his attacker. In another of Gadd's award-winning one-man shows from 2016, Monkey See Monkey Do — where he runs on a treadmill while being chased by a large monkey as a metaphor for the heavy burden of abuse — he tells the story of his sexual assault.
Donny is shown, despite everything, going on to accept a job with his abuser. Gadd has hinted he did the same, saying: 'It was showing an element of abuse that hadn't been seen on television before, which is, unfortunately, the deeply entrenched, negative, psychological effects of attachment you can sometimes have with your abuser.'
The storyline led to comedy writer and director Sean Foley being falsely identified as the rapist due to his physical similarities to actor Tom Goodman-Hill, who plays Darrien.
Foley, who has worked with Gadd, has called in the police over the claims, while Gadd said his attacker was not Foley and begged the public to stop attempting to unmask his assailant.
This week author Richard Osman said on his The Rest Is Entertainment podcast that 'people in the industry know who that person is'.
8. Donny's trans girlfriend
Gadd, who is bisexual, has confirmed that he dated a trans woman and that Teri (played by Nava Mau, pictured in a still from the show) is based on the real person he was with
Baby Reindeer's Donny is shown joining dating sites and falling in love with Teri, a captivating American trans woman, whom he initially treats badly and is embarrassed to be seen with, played by real-life trans actress Nava Mau.
Gadd, who is bisexual, has confirmed that he dated a trans woman and that Teri is based on the real person he was with during a spell he refers to as 'the messiness of my early 20s'.
In his Monkey See Monkey Do show he reveals that his rape led to a 'masculinity' crisis and that he never considered he was anything other than straight until that point.
He says: 'I'd fallen for someone who was trans but with that came a lot of questioning and all that unfortunate shame you have when you are young.'
Just like Teri, Gadd's real-life trans girlfriend was harassed and targeted by his stalker which eventually led to their break-up.
9. Donny's public meltdown
Baby Reindeer's Donny is shown competing in the finals of a comedy competition where he has a complete breakdown. With his gags falling flat, he instead launches into a monologue detailing his rape and subsequent stalking. A punter films him on his phone and it goes viral, turning Donny into a star.This never happened in real life. Gadd actually spoke out about his experiences of sexual abuse and stalking in Monkey See Monkey Do.
Although there are hundreds of videos on YouTube and TikTok claiming to show Gadd's real-life public breakdown, they are just short excerpts from either the original Baby Reindeer or Monkey See Monkey Do scripted stage shows.
10. The name 'Baby Reindeer'
In the show's emotional climax, Donny is seen sitting alone in a bar listening to Martha's voicemails. In one she reveals the devastating reason why she's given him the nickname 'Baby Reindeer' — as a young girl, she had a little stuffed reindeer that she clung to when her parents fought and took comfort in over years of neglect.Donny, she says, reminded her of that reindeer right down to its 'wee bum'. But the 'real Martha' says she has never owned a baby reindeer toy and never gave Gadd that nickname.
Gadd has never commented on the nickname but has revealed that his stalker sent him many strange gifts including cuddly toys, underwear, , a hat and sleeping pills.
Orang Utan
Acceptable through usage
Is it a good idea to be broadcasting the Mail story for them?
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
You don't have to read it
. It's behind their paywall, so I'm actually freely distributing something their readers pay for 
(As I said the link isn't even to the DM)edit: why am I even justifying myself? Just don't read it or click on the link if you're not keen on it.
Orang Utan
Acceptable through usage
Nobody should read it though. In my view, it’s not much better than tracking down the stalker yourself. it’s a private story that’s been given too much publicity already.You don't have to read it
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
Your view is your view. Thankfully people are free to read what they want, regardless of what you think.
edit: also, it's hardly the same as tracking the stalker. Seriously, what a hyperbole on your part!
Orang Utan
Acceptable through usage
You’re missing the point if that’s your response
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