Baby Reindeer (Netflix)

[Nanker Phelge]

So a newspaper can do what the internet sleuths are doing and it is all ok, because it is different how?

 

[Orang Utan]

Your view is your view. Thankfully people are free to read what they want, regardless of what you think.

And i’m free to express my view on it. This is just cheap curtain-twitching

 

[girasol]

So a newspaper can do what the internet sleuths are doing and it is all ok, because it is different how?

have you actually read it? They're not naming her and they're just aggregating what's been said so far. Anyway, I don't have to justify myself so I'm not replying anymore.

Also the stalking was extreme, it should be brought to light so maybe potential stalkers in the future can check their own behaviours and think before acting.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

They are fanning the flames, and so is posting it here.

 

[Orang Utan]

They are fanning the flames, and so is posting it here.

I can’t believe this needs pointing out!

 

[Nanker Phelge]

Also the stalking was extreme, it should be brought to light so maybe potential stalkers in the future can check their own behaviours and think before acting.

Yeah, cos they sit down and have a little word with themselves before they go off and do their stalking.

 

[girasol]

Stalkers, like bullies, sometimes don't even realise what they're doing is or even how it affects other people. And yes, sometimes seeing that certain actions means this or that, in no uncertain terms, can actually stop some people from starting the behaviour or carrying on.

I can't believe I have to point that out!

Even rapists, in this case he probably justified in his mind that it was all consensual - but maybe now in the cold light of day, once it's pointed out why, he sees that it was actually rape. Once again, shouldn't have to point that out either, but here we are.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Stalkers, like bullies, sometimes don't even realise what they're doing is or even how it affects other people. And yes, sometimes seeing that certain actions means this or that in no uncertain terms can actually stop some people from starting the behaviour or carrying on.

I can't believe I have to point that out!

Even rapists, in this case he probably justified in his mind that it was all consensual - but maybe now in the cold light of day, once it's pointed out why, he sees that it was actually rape. Once again, shouldn't have to point that out either, but here we are.

I'm surprised that people are annoyed about the stalker and the rapist being outed.

If the victim had been a woman, would people be reacting this way?

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm surprised that people are annoyed about the stalker and the rapist being outed.

If the victim had been a woman, would people be reacting this way?

Er, yes.
Some people really just don’t get how they become part of the whole grotty circus by speculating and sharing intrusive stories. It’s ugly as fuck. We should try and do better.

 

[girasol]

I'm surprised that people are annoyed about the stalker and the rapist being outed.

If the victim had been a woman, would people be reacting this way?

Also, there's no naming of anybody in the article, and Martha is out now anyway.

I wish the rapist man would be outed. Why is he still not named? Probably because Gadd himself thinks there was a grey area in the rapist's head? i.e. he kept going back and then worked with him. Anyone who's been raped by someone they know in a non extremely violent way, especially when drugs are involved, always feels like it was partially their fault, even though it's not.

I still think overall this has been a good thing, in terms of raising awareness.

 

[scifisam]

So a newspaper can do what the internet sleuths are doing and it is all ok, because it is different how?

Martha contacted the newspaper. They didn't hunt her out, she went to them.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Also, there's no naming of anybody in the article, and Martha is out now anyway.

I wish the rapist man would be outed. Why is he still not named? Probably because Gadd himself thinks there was a grey area in the rapist's head? i.e. he kept going back and then worked with him. Anyone who's been raped by someone they know in a non extremely violent way, especially when drugs are involved, always feels like it was partially their fault, even though it's not.

I still think overall this has been a good thing, in terms of raising awareness.

I’m very struck by the fact that the woman has been found (and was identified before she came forward) and the man hasn’t. Particularly as horrific both the sexual assault and the stalking were, it was the rape that had that extra power component and still probably does. We know from countless other examples that exposing people with immense power to make or break careers is incredibly difficult to do.

Not quite sure where I’m going with this but it’s more a reflection on the public, industry and press’ reaction than anything to do with Gadd.

 

[girasol]

I’m very struck by the fact that the woman has been found (and was identified before she came forward) and the man hasn’t. Particularly as horrific both the sexual assault and the stalking were, it was the rape that had that extra power component and still probably does. We know from countless other examples that exposing people with immense power to make or break careers is incredibly difficult to do.

Not quite sure where I’m going with this but it’s more a reflection on the public, industry and press’ reaction than anything to do with Gadd.

Yeah, it's not right. But also I was thinking about this just in legal terms. The stalker has provided A LOT of evidence with which a) prove it happened b) be admissible in court. The grooming & rape, which I referred as a grey area, is indeed a grey area in terms of evidence and being prosecutable. So maybe that's why the media is being more careful in not naming? They could be sued for libel?

Most rape cases get thrown out of court don't they? Which is also why so many rape victims don't even bother reporting to the police. If Gadd had gone to the police straight after it happened, sure, there'd be DNA. But I'm guessing he couldn't face it on a massive comedown and utter confusion. Who could? Not many people. It would have to have been something very violent and/or done by a stranger...

OMG!!!! I just remembered the scene where his rapist tells Gadd to go and have a shower! So maybe the mf was fully aware of what he did and wanted the evidence removed from Gadd's body?

 

[Nanker Phelge]

They should both be exposed as a danger to the public. I don't have a problem with that at all.

It's the tabloid approach that feels sleazy.

 

[Gromit]

I’m very struck by the fact that the woman has been found (and was identified before she came forward) and the man hasn’t.

The internet was littered with the breadcrumbs of her internet interactions with Gadd

Communication with the man was via private mediums and could be any media type who went to to the Fringe (if that is indeed where they met?). Not a small number.

Not a comparable task.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

More broadly, I suppose there is a dilemma attached to any form of written or performed art that comes from personal experience. Recording events exactly as they happened runs the risk of exposing character’s real identities and of course, events will always be somewhat interpreted from the perspective of the writer. But half dramatising events creates a different narrative and makes it difficult to separate truth and fiction for anyone who has identified the real life person.

i wouldn’t quibble with that wrt Baby Reindeer because we’re taking about evidentially abusive relationships, but it must also happen all the time in regards to more subjectively complex “bad” relationships. Many artists draw from life after all. And even if the public as a whole might not go after you, having mutual acquaintances recognise you must be challenging, let alone recognising your own story told in a distorted (to you) way.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

The internet was littered with the breadcrumbs of her internet interactions with Gadd

Communication with the man was via private mediums and could be any media type who went to to the Fringe (if that is indeed where they met?). Not a small number.

Not a comparable task.

No doubt that’s part of it. I also don’t think it’s a bad thing to point out that the more objectively powerful abuser is escaping the spotlight. There might be practical reasons for it but there’s still conversations about control and who the public demonise.

Btw, I’m not completely surprised that Gadd went back to work with him, both in the show and real life.

 

[KatyF]

There might be practical reasons for it but there’s still conversations about control and who the public demonise.

Definitely agree with this. I would also hazard a guess that the status differences between the abuser and the stalker probably play a part in it - I wouldn't be surprised if money has been bandied around to keep his name from coming out.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

Martha contacted the newspaper. They didn't hunt her out, she went to them.

It is possible that happened. Or it is possible the paper found her and convinced her to take her chance to talk before they outed her. Which is a common scenario.

Either way, they did not need to go to print with any of it, or engage at all; they wanted the traffic.

 

[Mumbles274]

From what Richard Osman said on The Rest Is Entertainment.. The rapist's identity is completely known by the media and everyone in the industry

 

[Agent Sparrow]

From what Richard Osman said on The Rest Is Entertainment.. The rapist's identity is completely known by the media and everyone in the industry

That’s not a consolation! It’s more cover up. If he’s anything like any of the other public figures in entertainment who have assaulted people then Gadd is unlikely to be the only victim.

 

[Mumbles274]

That’s not a consolation! It’s more cover up. If he’s anything like any of the other public figures in entertainment who have assaulted people then Gadd is unlikely to be the only victim.

I didn't say it was a consolation? I was providing information.. Can you take that back implying I think it's somehow OK that that's the case?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I didn't say it was a consolation? I was providing information.. Can you take that back implying I think it's somehow OK that that's the case?

Tbf I was more responding to the information as a prompt rather than to you directly, though I wasn’t entirely sure what you were getting at so it’s good to hear it wasn’t that. But generally speaking, him being allegedly known by the whole industry doesn’t make it better.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

Again and again we hear how this industry always seems to know who the predators are, and yet they all allow it to carry on and none of them act to stop it.

How powerful is this person that everyone in show business is keeping their secret for them?

 

[belboid]

From what Richard Osman said on The Rest Is Entertainment.. The rapist's identity is completely known by the media and everyone in the industry

was it the fact that he said the rapists name is well known that was the giveaway?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I’m currently listening to a podcast with Rachel Bloom and Jameela Jamil, who are both open about their mental health struggles and in Bloom’s case in particular, how it influences her creative work. She’s saying something very interesting about using your own trauma history to create material, which is that you should have ideally processed it before you write about it to stay safe from it. I’m not a writer but I get that - I can be very candid about certain past experiences but only stuff I’ve processed.

I hope Gadd has processed it. He may have done and is just a surprisingly good dramatic writer. But there’s something about Baby Reindeer that feels like he hasn’t.

 

[kabbes]

If by “processed”, you mean “made sense of, gained distance from and objectified into a narrative that doesn’t viscerally involve you as the subject of the experience” then I would say no, he clearly hasn’t processed it. He cast himself as the main character, ffs.

 

[tommers]

Was it the way that the final scene is him listening to voicemails from his mentally ill stalker telling him how great he is?

 

[krtek a houby]

If by “processed”, you mean “made sense of, gained distance from and objectified into a narrative that doesn’t viscerally involve you as the subject of the experience” then I would say no, he clearly hasn’t processed it. He cast himself as the main character, ffs.

Maybe he felt he was the only person who could do the story justice.

 

[kabbes]

Maybe he felt he was the only person who could do the story justice.

That makes no sense, though, if it’s just a story that he’s telling from a distance. He’s obviously not the greatest actor of his generation or anything. Plus, he’s totally the wrong age (and looks it). No, there would be 100 actors more suited to the story. It only makes sense if he is still feeling this story viscerally and from the first person subjective perspective. And whatever having “processed it” means (generally, it’s conspicuously undefined), that feels like the antithesis of it.