Baby Reindeer (Netflix)

[Silas Loom]

If Gadd was a woman, and the stalker was a man, would people be feeling differently about the whole thing? Silas Loom? Petcha?

I asked myself that same question and I did feel a bit of a gender bias there, in that, if he was a woman & stalker was a man... Well, for starters it would have been a story that has been told over over again (because it's painfully common), so it wouldn't be as "innovative" or "unique"... The fact that he's a man is what makes it stand out. I feel he's being judged more harshly for that very reason, but he was still a victim.

I just felt that his storytelling was a bit too obviously selective and he didn’t do enough to make every character plausible. That’s irrelevant to gender or the stalking context. So, no, I don’t think I’d be feeling differently if Gadd was a woman.

Effectively outing Martha was irresponsible, but that’s on Netflix rather than Gadd really.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It’s more normal and maybe more accepted for women to mine their personal lives for art in this way. Sylvia Plath, Tracy Emin and Taylor Swift for starters.

I remember going to see a contemporary dance that was all about the choreographer’s messy divorce. It was without a doubt the most spectacular, beautiful and moving piece of dance I’ve seen. Obviously not as literal as TV or literature but every bit of hurt was conveyed.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I just felt that his storytelling was a bit too obviously selective and he didn’t do enough to make every character plausible. That’s irrelevant to gender or the stalking context. So, no, I don’t think I’d be feeling differently if Gadd was a woman.

Effectively outing Martha was irresponsible, but that’s on Netflix rather than Gadd really.

Funnily enough having finished it now, regarding gender I’m left thinking that there would have been a lot less sympathy for the whole grooming scenario if Gadd had been a woman, because I’ve seen countless example of women being crucified for less ongoing scenarios. Which again is more of a comment about the public than Gadd’s experience and right to tell it.

 

[girasol]

Today the DM offers an interview with the woman "Martha" stalked for 5 years (behind paywall) but can be read here. Fuck her! ("Martha", not the woman in the DM).

https://archive.ph/jDobw

 

[story]

Really? John Lennon’s criticism of the lyrics of Paul McCartney songs like Lovely Rita Meter Maid and Maxwell’s Silver Hammer is that “that never happened”

I don’t mean that men don’t mine their own lives. Of course they do. I mean that women seem more likely than men to use the confessional form of creativity in order to express themselves.

Definition of confessional art is intimate subject matters, the use of the first-person point of view, autobiographical experiences, and careful use of craftsmanship, usually involves the disclosure of personal revelations and secrets, often in first-person, non-fiction forms such as diaries and memoirs

Confessional writing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Petcha]

Empathy for your situation but wtf are you on about?

How should victims cope? Stay quiet in the corner and not talk about it?

It just comes across as incredibly self-indulgent, sorry

 

[kalidarkone]

I found it excrutiating watch at times. I found the stand up scenes as excrutiating as the abuse scenes (vulnerability)

I know I found it more uncomfortable because it was a man that was the victim. This in itself bothered me. The fact that I am more desensitised to abuse aimed at women. Because its more common as part of entertainment in films and TV.

I weirdly felt little empathy towards the Donny character- just felt really frustrated with him for seeming to endlessly continue round the loop.

I just wanted him to go and get some support and therapy.

 

[krtek a houby]

Some of you, especially those in the LGBT communities will be aware of this. From the guardian:

I’ve lost count of the number of queer men in my life who have shared harrowing stories of being groomed or sexually assaulted. A 2021 report by SurvivorsUK revealed that nearly half (45%) of gay and bi men have experienced sexual assault, while more recent research from Glasgow Caledonian University found that one in four have experienced some form of violence in same-sex relationships.

Baby Reindeer strikes a painful chord for gay and bi men, and I know why: grooming and rape are common | Jeffrey Ingold

Sexual violence within the queer community is rarely visible in the media, says writer and consultant Jeffrey Ingold

www.theguardian.com

Imho, there are still those who aren't remotely interested, or think this sort of thing doesn't happen, or that we enjoy it. Prison rape jokes, etc.

 

[bcuster]

Very disturbing. My wife bailed out after episode 3.
I watched the whole thing. I'm not glad I did.

No one in US had heard of the stalkee prior to this series. Now everyone has.
So, get a stalker, get famous? I think not...
And, I'm not sure the series' portrayal of gays and transgenders is entirely positive.

The online stalking of the stalker? Bad. The fact that the stalker may soon voluntarily reveal herself?

Not good at all..

 

[krtek a houby]

No one in US had heard of the stalkee prior to this series. Now everyone has.
So, get a stalker, get famous? I think not...
And, I'm not sure the series' portrayal of gays and transgenders is entirely positive.

Not sure what you mean, could you elaborate?

 

[story]

The question “why did he make the show?”

I had this question in mind myself.
Having gotten 15 minutes into episode 5 I reckon it’s this: I reckon he’s made this show as an attempt to explain himself to those he’s wronged, his girlfriend Keelee, Teri.

You know that feeling when you know you’ve fucked up and you don’t know how to make it right, but you have a strong belief that if only the other person could have some understanding of where you’re at, what was going on for you, the stuff you couldn’t explain at the time, then they’d forgive you? Yeah, that. I think that’s what’s motivated him. That need to be understood and forgiven.

And I think that is rooted in a sense of abject self loathing from way back.

So this feeling that you’re no good, can never be any good, and nothing you do can ever be any good, and the sense of desperately yearning to plead with others to somehow take that abject self loathing into consideration when they’re judging you, but still hating yourself so much that you can’t take your own needs seriously or give them any weight, and can’t bring yourself to say “I was dealing with trauma, grant me some grace”. Because your sense of being a sinner is stronger than your sense of being sinned against. You can’t forgive yourself for your stupid misguided terrible mistakes, like going back to the abuser, unless others say they understand.

And in some way, it’s the opposite of what Martha does, how she copes with whatever trauma she’s got going on. She turned it outwards, he’s turned it inwards.



About 8 minutes into ep. 5 he says in voiceover that “Teri’s experience [of being attacked by Martha] allowed her to better understand mine” and he’s able to have some emotional intimacy with her.


I think it’s the need to be understood that’s the driver here,

 

[bcuster]

The question “why did he make the show?”

I had this question in mind myself.
Having gotten 15 minutes into episode 5 I reckon it’s this: I reckon he’s made this show as an attempt to explain himself to those he’s wronged, his girlfriend Keelee, Teri.

You know that feeling when you know you’ve fucked up and you don’t know how to make it right, but you have a strong belief that if only the other person could have some understanding of where you’re at, what was going on for you, the stuff you couldn’t explain at the time, then they’d forgive you? Yeah, that. I think that’s what’s motivated him. That need to be understood and forgiven.

And I think that is rooted in a sense of abject self loathing from way back.

So this feeling that you’re no good, can never be any good, and nothing you do can ever be any good, and the sense of desperately yearning to plead with others to somehow take that abject self loathing into consideration when they’re judging you, but still hating yourself so much that you can’t take your own needs seriously or give them any weight, and can’t bring yourself to say “I was dealing with trauma, grant me some grace”. Because your sense of being a sinner is stronger than your sense of being sinned against. You can’t forgive yourself for your stupid misguided terrible mistakes, like going back to the abuser, unless others say they understand.

And in some way, it’s the opposite of what Martha does, how she copes with whatever trauma she’s got going on. She turned it outwards, he’s turned it inwards.



About 8 minutes into ep. 5 he says in voiceover that “Teri’s experience [of being attacked by Martha] allowed her to better understand mine” and he’s able to have some emotional intimacy with her.


I think it’s the need to be understood that’s the driver here,

well said. everyone seems mixed up & hopeless and a victim of their circumstances. any of the good that is derived seems to be at the expense of someone else's malfeasance or misfortune

 

[bcuster]

not to reveal spoilers, but the ending was not "happy" at all. all of the players lost. this to me is negative and there is already more than enough negativity to be found

and projecting into the future: much more bad will come from this series than good...

 

[scifisam]

Very disturbing. My wife bailed out after episode 3.
I watched the whole thing. I'm not glad I did.

No one in US had heard of the stalkee prior to this series. Now everyone has.
So, get a stalker, get famous? I think not...
And, I'm not sure the series' portrayal of gays and transgenders is entirely positive.

The online stalking of the stalker? Bad. The fact that the stalker may soon voluntarily reveal herself?

Not good at all..

I don't think gay people overall were portrayed badly. That rapist doesn't represent all gay people. And the transwoman was a very positive portrayal - maybe too much of a pushover, but then so were the protagonist's ex and her mum.

 

[scifisam]

well said. everyone seems mixed up & hopeless and a victim of their circumstances. any of the good that is derived seems to be at the expense of someone else's malfeasance or misfortune

Disagree. Shows like this do help people who've been through similar. Especially because he is fucked up and doesn't deal with it in a logical way, which is the way it is for a lot of, if not most people. You don't have to be perfectly innocent yourself.

I'm reminded a bit of the movie The Accused, where Jodie Foster's character did sleep around a lot and had flirted heavily with one of the guys who raped her. She still said no when it went past flirting. That helped solidify the idea in people's minds that no actually does mean no. It has not fully worked out when it comes to court cases, sadly, but it's slowly filtered into common parlance that - ethically - no means no, to the extent that some people probably forget that it was not always that way.

 

[T & P]

Very disturbing. My wife bailed out after episode 3.
I watched the whole thing. I'm not glad I did.

No one in US had heard of the stalkee prior to this series. Now everyone has.
So, get a stalker, get famous? I think not...
And, I'm not sure the series' portrayal of gays and transgenders is entirely positive.

The online stalking of the stalker? Bad. The fact that the stalker may soon voluntarily reveal herself?

Not good at all..

Did you decide to check it out after reading about it in here, or has it actually become such a high profile show in the US on word-of-mouth/ media reports?

 

[krtek a houby]

and projecting into the future: much more bad will come from this series than good...

You make statements like this but hardly ever elaborate. What bad, for whom?

 

[story]

Just for the record. I’m not going to link and I’ve not read the article.

The Sun has named the stalker today.





Believe it or not, I was looking for something entirely unrelated and (I guess because I looked at that Mail page the other day) the algorithm popped up the Exclusive! Unmasked!! headline.




ETA the algorithm also informs me that Jake Paul will be fighting Mike Tyson in July. Which seems weird and also somehow disturbingly obvious.

 

[bcuster]

Did you decide to check it out after reading about it in here, or has it actually become such a high profile show in the US on word-of-mouth/ media

Did you decide to check it out after reading about it in here, or has it actually become such a high profile show in the US on word-of-mouth/ media reports?

The series is being discussed a lot here. I saw there's a thread on urban so I wanted to join jn the discussion

 

[bcuster]

I'm not happy to have watched it. It's too negative, too dark. Nobody came out the better for either having lived through or told the story; or watched it, for that matter...

 

[bcuster]

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm not happy to have watched it. It's too negative, too dark. Nobody came out the better for either having lived through or told the story; or watched it, for that matter...

Not all stories have happy endings where everything is resolved, where the characters are good/bad with no in-between.

 

[scifisam]

I'm not happy to have watched it. It's too negative, too dark. Nobody came out the better for either having lived through or told the story; or watched it, for that matter...

Is it partly because it was publicised as a comedy, or comedy drama, and it really isn't?

 

[bcuster]

Is it partly because it was publicised as a comedy, or comedy drama, and it really isn't?

I think that may be part of it. Even the comedy bits were morbidly depressing

 

[Epona]

I'm not quite sure how to describe my feelings about this very well - but I find some of the discourse around it quite troubling.
Like - yes, it doesn't seem that he treated the Teri character very well, but that doesn't somehow justify any of the terrible things that happened to him.
They're separate things, someone can be a complete arse but it doesn't somehow lessen the impact of being sexually assaulted or stalked and make it OK.
There's a bit of a narrative that the media likes to spin about people who are victims of this sort of crime being "innocent" and "blameless" and "good", and I don't think it's particularly useful.

I don't know whether I've put that very well!

 

[krtek a houby]

Tangent here, but recalled seeing Goodfellas and several people in the audience walking out. Guessing that they were expecting a comedy like Wise Guys or Tough Guys from a few years earlier...

Some of the most compelling telly and film are the shows and programmes that go beyond the good versus evil simplistic fare that's been pumped out for generations.

Scorsese's antiheroes, thinking back to the early likes of Mean Streets. You had Keitel's character and his catholic upbringing often on his mind, De Niro's Johnny with his couldn't give a shit, pushing the boundaries persona.

Much later we got the likes of Walter White and Saul Goodman doing terrible things and yet we'd be glued to their schemes and lives. Often struggling to empathize.

For various reasons, very much empathize with the character Gadd wrote. The confusion, self loathing and terror he endures. How such events in our lives can traumatize and impair our judgement.

Maybe the show was a form of catharsis for him.

Certainly don't see it as portraying us LGBT in a negative light. Struggles with coming to terms with identity are familiar with many of us.

 

[krtek a houby]

I think that may be part of it. Even the comedy bits were morbidly depressing

Wait until you see Joker

 

[girasol]

Pretty sure there are trigger warnings at the start of episodes? I can't remember, but there must be? There are a couple of funny bits, and he's a comedian, but yeah, this ain't no comedy. On IMDB it's listed as a biopic/drama, not a comedy. And it's an 18, marked "sexual violence" so I was expecting something dark & disturbing from the outset.

As for 'no good' coming out of it. Well, it's not a good experience for anyone involved, so that's not surprising. However anything that shines a light on terrible things that aren't talked about and helps other people who have been through it realise that it's not their fault is worthy, in my book.

 

[girasol]

This person should pay more attention to what they are about to watch before jumping on a bandwagon . It's pretty clear from this that it's not going to be a fun ride?!?! Watch Baby Reindeer | Netflix Official Site

edit: I just noticed one thing: on IMDB there's no mention of comedy genre, but in the genre section of Netflix they tagged 'comedy programmes', which is not right, and obviously they did it to reach a bigger audience. Dodgy AF. Depending on how you view the blurb, it's also marked as a 'dark comedy'.

 

[Epona]

This person should pay more attention to what they are about to watch before jumping on a bandwagon . It's pretty clear from this that it's not going to be a fun ride?!?! Watch Baby Reindeer | Netflix Official Site

N has given it a great big Nope not going near that with a 10 foot bargepole just on the basis of what he's heard about it and content warnings.
It's on a streaming service so it's not like one's accidentally going to find oneself watching it whilst channel hopping, there's a conscious decision involved in pressing play.