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Baby Reindeer (Netflix)

I don't think he could have predicted that it would become this successful and that people would get that obsessed with it.

Had he predicted, would he have written it differently, even at the expense of that predicted success?

Why does he have any responsibility to protect her? He's not allowed to tell his truth?
He not allowed his success? For her sake?

As someone who was stalked by two exes this show spoke volumes to me. It's very reassuring that some of his emotions towards his stalker echoed mine. I've never heard any stalker coverage in the media mention any emotion other than fear.
 
I don't think he could have predicted that it would become this successful and that people would get that obsessed with it.

Had he predicted, would he have written it differently, even at the expense of that predicted success?

Why does he have any responsibility to protect her? He's not allowed to tell his truth?
He not allowed his success? For her sake?

As someone who was stalked by two exes this show spoke volumes to me. It's very reassuring that some of his emotions towards his stalker echoed mine. I've never heard any stalker coverage in the media mention any emotion other than fear.

I don't necessarily think he's to blame, but Netflix do have a responsibility to ensure that their programming doesn't cause harm and should have done more to oversee effective pseudonymisation. But Netflix has no publishing ethics whatsoever, as their numerous entertaining but sensationalist and sometimes prurient true crime docs show.

I've watched the first three episodes and have loved it so far. Read alot about how disturbing and haunting the show is, so wasn't looking forward to it that much but so far at least, I think the show has perfectly blended comedic and horror elements so that I never feel overwhelmed after an episode, but with four episodes left, no doubt that balance may change.
 
I've watched the first three episodes and have loved it so far. Read alot about how disturbing and haunting the show is, so wasn't looking forward to it that much but so far at least, I think the show has perfectly blended comedic and horror elements so that I never feel overwhelmed after an episode, but with four episodes left, no doubt that balance may change.
If I remember right, Jeff, I think Ep 4 is the really dark one.
 
scifisam suggested upthread that people may have found the stalker just by trawling through Twitter though
Sure, but just searching for a 'who @'ed at him' is unavoidable, he couldn't have written it any other way to avoid that (well, except by pretending she didn't use twitter, but that seems implausible). Thats quite different, although, to when

But yeah, it was just "this woman who has these exact characteristics and posted the exact same text about the curtains was @ing Gadd at the time he was being stalked." Not exactly a deep dive.
Using the exact wording is clearly bad form as its makes it bloody easy to track a person down. That is out of order.
 
I don't necessarily think he's to blame, but Netflix do have a responsibility to ensure that their programming doesn't cause harm and should have done more to oversee effective pseudonymisation. But Netflix has no publishing ethics whatsoever, as their numerous entertaining but sensationalist and sometimes prurient true crime docs show.

I've watched the first three episodes and have loved it so far. Read alot about how disturbing and haunting the show is, so wasn't looking forward to it that much but so far at least, I think the show has perfectly blended comedic and horror elements so that I never feel overwhelmed after an episode, but with four episodes left, no doubt that balance may change.
It is, vaguely, interesting, how Michaela Cole wouldn't let Netflix produce IMDY because they wouldn't let her do exactly as she wanted with it, whereas this one, obviously, is Netflix produced. Did they decide 'we blew it last time, so now we'l let Gadd do whatever he wants'? Or even did they use him to make it as true to life as possible, thinking 'any publicity will be good publicity'?
 
But it’s another reason not to warm to Gadd.
I don't think he has written himself in a way that says "please warm to me". The self loathing is oozing out of his character. What makes it uncomfortable viewing is that he isn't a "perfect" victim and I'm pretty sure it's the intention. He is very much the problematic arsehole in his relationship with Teri in the series.
 
I'm currently dealing with a stalker of sorts. I watched one episode of this and when I realised he was the actual stalkee, playing himself...... I mean wtf. It's the biggest greatest wank off all time. I'm so sexy, i'm gonna put all it all over iplayer or whatever the fuck platform he's on. A very weird strategy to deal with it. Awful.... just gross, who commissioned this?
 
I don't think he has written himself in a way that says "please warm to me". The self loathing is oozing out of his character. What makes it uncomfortable viewing is that he isn't a "perfect" victim and I'm pretty sure it's the intention. He is very much the problematic arsehole in his relationship with Teri in the series.

But he’s still only showing us the self-loathing he wants to. There’s an untold story about a charismatic manipulator who wangles board and lodging from his ex’s bereaved mum, for instance.

Michaela Coel drew on her life experiences but it was clear from watching IMDY that her responsibility as a storyteller was to the viewer, which is as it should be. Gadd, instead, has managed to use Netflix for fame, therapy and revenge, likely with very bad consequences for “Martha”.
 
I'm currently dealing with a stalker of sorts. I watched one episode of this and when I realised he was the actual stalkee, playing himself...... I mean wtf. It's the biggest greatest wank off all time. I'm so sexy, i'm gonna put all it all over iplayer or whatever the fuck platform he's on. A very weird strategy to deal with it. Awful.... just gross, who commissioned this?
Empathy for your situation but wtf are you on about?

How should victims cope? Stay quiet in the corner and not talk about it?
 
If I remember right, Jeff, I think Ep 4 is the really dark one.
Bees had to watch that one on his own to assess whether I’d be able to watch it. Apparently it’s ok apart from about 2 mins where I’ll need to cover my ears and close my eyes.
 
If Gadd was a woman, and the stalker was a man, would people be feeling differently about the whole thing? Silas Loom? Petcha?

I asked myself that same question and I did feel a bit of a gender bias there, in that, if he was a woman & stalker was a man... Well, for starters it would have been a story that has been told over over again (because it's painfully common), so it wouldn't be as "innovative" or "unique"... The fact that he's a man is what makes it stand out. I feel he's being judged more harshly for that very reason, but he was still a victim.
 
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Hasn’t she now claimed that some stuff depicted didn’t happen? Which of course she could be lying about, or there might well have been some creative licence taken. Not in itself a bad thing for a dramatisation, but more problematic if she’s identifiable.

It is important to consider gender but it’s also worth saying that when countless women have shared stories of being assaulted and abused, they’ve often recieved internet abuse themselves for their declarations. :( Has that happened to Gadd? And when famous men are identified as abusing multiple women, do they get the kind of internet abuse and threats that “Martha” has? Those last two questions aren’t challenges btw, they’re genuine questions as I don’t know.

In all these cases, the blame for such internet abuse only really lays with the people dishing it out, and large parts of the internet are complete cesspits. :mad:
 
I've watched all but the last episode. For me, it seems inevitable that she'll want to engage irl if you see what I mean. Given what we know (or think we know) about the way her mind works, it seems likely that she might out herself because she'd want to defend herself. This will not end well. Possibly for both of them. And given the way journalism works ('tell us your side of the story! We'll pay you!) it seems likely that it will be quite soon. Just a hunch.

That actress, though. She needs to be in everything from now on, please.
 
I've watched all but the last episode. For me, it seems inevitable that she'll want to engage irl if you see what I mean. Given what we know (or think we know) about the way her mind works, it seems likely that she might out herself because she'd want to defend herself. This will not end well. Possibly for both of them. And given the way journalism works ('tell us your side of the story! We'll pay you!) it seems likely that it will be quite soon. Just a hunch.

That actress, though. She needs to be in everything from now on, please.


She’s already been interviewed anonymously by… yes, you guessed it, the Daily Mail.
 
Broken link here, and most of the article quoted here.


Fuckinell apparently you can’t break the link. I tried and it still worked.




EXCLUSIVE'I'm the victim. He's written a bloody show about me': The alleged female stalker whose story has gripped the world in Netflix hit baby Reindeer tells HER side of the story and claims 'I'm being bullied for fame'​

[….]
For while Gadd has previously claimed to have disguised his stalker's identity to such an extent that, he has said, 'I don't think she would recognise herself', it didn't take long for internet sleuths to work out who she is.
The woman, who spoke to the Mail this week but whom we have decided not to name, told us she thought Gadd's script amounted to 'bullying an older woman on television for fame and fortune' and that she had received online 'death threats and abuse from Richard Gadd supporters'.
'He's using Baby Reindeer to stalk me now,' she claimed. 'I'm the victim. He's written a bloody show about me.'

For with internet speculation at fever pitch — not just about the female stalker but also about the identity of an older male TV comedy writer who grooms and rapes Gadd's character in Baby Reindeer — West Midlands police stepped into the fray this week after a string of false accusations and threats were made on social media against a prestigious theatre director.
A sorry mess, indeed, though perhaps expected given the explosive nature of what he has called 'lightly fictionalised' material. How could he not have expected that viewers would try to identify the real people behind his outlandish characters?
For the woman said to be the real-life 'Martha', a 58-year-old who lives alone in a council flat in central London surviving on a food budget of £30 a week, shares several key similarities with her on-screen persona.
Indeed, Gadd's claim that he has protected her identity by changing key details is baffling given that both women are Scottish, both studied law at university, both are around 20 years older than Gadd and both use highly sexualised language in their speech and writing.
The woman also bears an uncanny physical resemblance to Martha although after watching Baby Reindeer this week she told the Mail: 'She sort of looks like me after I put on four stone during lockdown but I'm not actually unattractive.'
The parallels between the women's lives do not stop there. In the first episode of Baby Reindeer, Gadd's character Donny is seen googling 'Martha' and discovering, via a newspaper article, that she has a previous history of stalking — just like the real woman Gadd knew.
Man confronts twisted relationship with a stalker in Baby Reindeer

The made-up headline shown on screen reads: 'Sick stalker torments barrister's deaf child' — not exactly a million miles away from a genuine article about the woman.
In this case it was a politician whose wife gave a job to the woman, a law graduate, as a trainee solicitor before letting her go within days after becoming alarmed by her conduct. She became so concerned that staff were issued with panic alarms.
The wife said the woman's behaviour had been bizarre and she had to be escorted from the building.
The woman was said to have filed bogus and hugely distressing complaints accusing the politician and his wife of abusing their young disabled son which led to social workers turning up on their doorstep to investigate the claims.
The wife eventually secured an 'interdict' — a restraining order — against her via the Scottish courts. She had previously also targeted a Scottish MP, turning up at his 'surgeries' and launching tirades of abuse at him.
So how did Gadd come into her orbit?
The comedian, who was born and raised in a village near Fife, and the woman who became his stalker met around a decade ago in the Hawley Arms, a trendy Camden pub once frequented by the late Amy Winehouse and her entourage.
On screen, the often ambiguous nature of their early encounters makes gripping viewing, as do Donny's often disastrous decisions about how to deal with Martha.
In the drama, Donny admits to being intrigued by her endless chatter and to enjoying the attention he gets from her at a time when his life is not going well.
Confused about his sexuality, he flatters Martha, played by actress Jessica Gunning in the show, and flirts with her in a bid to impress his laddish colleagues. In one exchange, Donny tells Martha how young she looks and says: 'Peter Pan needs his moisturiser back.'
The woman, meanwhile, recalls the comedian remarking how young she looked for her age — 47 at the time. He said: 'What moisturiser do you use?' 'I said, 'Oil of Ulay' slapped on,' she told the Mail.
Another key clue to her identity is referenced early on in Baby Reindeer, when Donny cracks a crude joke across the bar about helping Martha to 'hang her curtains' at home, similar to a tweet once sent by the woman to Gadd.
Speaking to The Mail, the woman also referenced the 'curtain' innuendo when she recalled her early encounters with Gadd in the Hawley Arms. 'He said, 'Can I fix your curtains?' That's a euphemism for saying I want to sleep with you,' she claimed.
But she disputed some elements of the drama. On the TV show, Martha gives Donny the nickname Baby Reindeer because, she says, he reminds her of a cuddly toy reindeer she had as a child with 'big lips, huge eyes and the cutest wee bum'.
Richard Gadd: 'Real-life stalking is nothing like on television'


But the woman claimed: 'I've never owned a toy baby reindeer and I wouldn't have had any conversation with Richard Gadd about a childhood toy either.' For viewers caught up in this moral muddle, it is gripping viewing.
The Netflix series is based on Gadd's 2019 Edinburgh Fringe one-man theatre show of the same name which was a sell-out hit, with the comedian claiming that 'it felt like it was actively mending me'.
Yet Gadd's experiences with a stalker weren't the first time he had mined the depths of his private life for stand-up material.
Baby Reindeer also incorporates a real-life experience from earlier in his career, which Gadd turned into his 2016 Edinburgh Fringe show, Monkey See Monkey Do. This saw him deliver a hugely personal and harrowing account, while running on a treadmill, of being raped by a manipulative older man.
Described by The Telegraph as 'a show that sucks you into a very troubled mind' and 'comedy-as-personal-catharsis taken to a whole new level', it won Gadd that year's Edinburgh Comedy Award and later transferred to the Soho Theatre in London for an eight-week run.
But while his career was finally on the ascent, behind the scenes Gadd's life was being made a misery by his stalker.
'It felt like I'd expunged the demons of one person who had caused me so much grief, only so that she could take centre stage in his place.
'It felt so awfully ironic,' he said in an interview with The Guardian in 2019 to publicise his Baby Reindeer stage show.
While he acknowledged that the show might provoke his stalker, he said it was a risk worth taking, 'a last roll of the dice' to shine a spotlight on stalking. He also insisted that it was about highlighting that harassers needed more care than punishment. 'She needs help,' he said at the time, 'but she's not getting any. So her instability would come down the phone at me every day.'
In an interview to publicise the new Netflix series, Gadd assured The Times last week that the stalking issue was 'resolved'.
But the woman in question, who denied being a stalker when it was put to her by The Mail, said: 'Richard Gadd has got 'main character syndrome'.
'He always thinks he's at the centre of things. I'm not writing shows about him or promoting them in the media, am I? If he wanted me to be properly anonymous, he could have done so. Gadd should leave me alone.'
She said she is considering taking legal action against him.
She is certainly not the only one to have been caught up in the fall-out from the show. Several online sleuths have wrongly identified 59-year-old theatre director Sean Foley as Gadd's rapist, who is named Darrien O'Connor in the show and played by actor Tom Goodman-Hill.
Comments have been made about the physical likeness between Foley and Goodman-Hill. Foley's announcement last week that he was stepping down from his role as creative director at Birmingham Rep fanned the flames further.
The director, a double Olivier award winner, revealed on X that police officers were investigating 'all defamatory abusive and threatening posts against me'.
Gadd has now begged viewers to stop trying to figure out the truth about Baby Reindeer, writing on Instagram: 'Please don't speculate on who any of the real life people could be. That's not the point of our show.'
Ultimately, the real-life storm of controversy unleashed by Baby Reindeer is part and parcel of its ongoing success.
Despite his plea to viewers to stop being so curious, Gadd must undoubtedly be aware of this.
So one wonders how such a deft storyteller could not have foreseen the Netflix effect which amplifies the fall-out that comes from blurring fact and fiction
 
Me…
I cant watch it directly. I can only watch it while I’m doing something else so it doesn’t take up all my attention. And I can’t watch a whole episode at once, and I may not finish the series.
 
I would also say that if, on a subconscious level, Gadd did want some level of revenge from her being outed, I can’t say I blame him. It must be fucking horrible to be stalked like that and it would be very human to want something that feels like justice. And this is essentially why we don’t have victims solely convict and sentence those who have harmed them. If she’s that identifiable from the show then I would say that’s mainly on Netflix.
 
I would also say that if, on a subconscious level, Gadd did want some level of revenge from her being outed, I can’t say I blame him. It must be fucking horrible to be stalked like that and it would be very human to want something that feels like justice. And this is essentially why we don’t have victims solely convict and sentence those who have harmed them. If she’s that identifiable from the show then I would say that’s mainly on Netflix.

It's understandable to want some kind of comeuppance for stalkers. Personally, I'd want them to admit what they did and apologise in public. It wouldn't fix the traumas or mental health damage, but it might help somewhat.
 
I would also say that if, on a subconscious level, Gadd did want some level of revenge from her being outed, I can’t say I blame him. It must be fucking horrible to be stalked like that and it would be very human to want something that feels like justice. And this is essentially why we don’t have victims solely convict and sentence those who have harmed them. If she’s that identifiable from the show then I would say that’s mainly on Netflix.
I wonder if he thought about it at all.
I feel that his mindset was wanting to be successful no matter what.

The one thing that brought him success previously (sharing trauma) is what he has intentionally tapped into again; when nothing else has brought equal success.
 
I would also say that if, on a subconscious level, Gadd did want some level of revenge from her being outed, I can’t say I blame him. It must be fucking horrible to be stalked like that and it would be very human to want something that feels like justice. And this is essentially why we don’t have victims solely convict and sentence those who have harmed them. If she’s that identifiable from the show then I would say that’s mainly on Netflix.

The only problem is, if he told them the same as he told the press originally, that he'd changed so many details that the woman herself wouldn't know it was her, then they'd have no reason not to believe him.

I don't think it's possible he really thought he'd hidden her well. If the only detail you change is someone's name then you know fully what you're doing.

But that - and the poor bloody director who's actually not invited at all - don't mean the show shouldn't have been made. Otherwise the whole topic becomes taboo, really.
 
The only problem is, if he told them the same as he told the press originally, that he'd changed so many details that the woman herself wouldn't know it was her, then they'd have no reason not to believe him.

I don't think it's possible he really thought he'd hidden her well. If the only detail you change is someone's name then you know fully what you're doing.

But that - and the poor bloody director who's actually not invited at all - don't mean the show shouldn't have been made. Otherwise the whole topic becomes taboo, really.
Yeah, I’m not saying it’s anything he should have done and particularly if he had any awareness of doing so, but I get how it could be possible to desire revenge without really acknowledging it to yourself iyswim? Especially as he doesn’t come across as massively self aware (I am only up to episode 4 so apologies if that changes).

It took me a while to realised you meant involved rather than invited in your last paragraph! :oops:
 
More generally, one of the things going through my head in episode 1 was about the sketchy people that you come across in life and end up humouring for whatever reasons. Quite often due to fear or uneasiness. Obviously most don’t end up as stalkers or attackers but the scary thing is that it’s not possible to predict.

I was finishing off a rewatch of Crazy Ex Girlfriend* when I started watching this and it’s a bit of a jarring contrast. I have emerging thoughts about this but haven’t quite managed to work them out yet.

*much more sensitive about mental illness than the name suggests for those not familiar with it
 
What I thought was very contradictory was that Gadd said he'd changed it enough not even the stalker herself would be able to self identify, but also all of the messages on screen were real, so how was that going to work? 🤔 (well surprise, surprise it didn't)
 
Gadd is in a bit of an odd position where his main career success has been in sharing his trauma - he had this big success with a stage show about being sexually abused, then bigger success with a stage show about being stalked, then huge success with the Netflix show. Wonder where he can go from here.
 
It’s more normal and maybe more accepted for women to mine their personal lives for art in this way. Sylvia Plath, Tracy Emin and Taylor Swift for starters.
Really? John Lennon’s criticism of the lyrics of Paul McCartney songs like Lovely Rita Meter Maid and Maxwell’s Silver Hammer is that “that never happened”
 
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