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Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

Apropos of nothing, here's something from the benefitsandwork forum which may interest people: there are certain medical conditions for which ATOS will use a doctor for your medical. For DLA medicals they seem to be contractually obliged to do this, for WCA ones they might just be following their own internal procedures. The list of conditions has not been made public but it includes TIA (aka mini stroke), MS, CFS/ME, musculoskeletal problems and dyspraxia. So maybe the rule is anything neurological, perhaps because non-doctors have difficulty assessing the claimant or understanding the documents they bring with them.

I had a doctor for my WCA medical the other day - I sailed into the support group with ease, despite being found fit for work on two previous occasions. The doctor read the letters from my GP and specialists and the care plan I brought with me and just made up her mind. After that she skipped the physical exam and lots of the questions. Didn't even ask me whether I could set an alarm! The only 'trap' questions I got were the ones about transport to the medical and what I get up to during the day. She made a point of saying how helpful the documents were. She seemed to be getting lots of the input for the LIMA software from the documents instead of talking to me.

Here's a tip - work out what your GP's letter needs to say, then give him or her a draft of it when you see them. Worked for me - my GP is always pushed for time and just wanted to get it done fast. If the letter says the right things it's pure fucking GOLD and can be used to accompany no end of claim forms. Attach it to everything, whether you are asked to or not.

e2a. Pls let me know if there's anything iffy about this post. Started new meds yesterday and my head is swimming
 
WouldBe asked for the benefitsandwork spiel on covert recording, so I've been scouring the site.

Note that if you want a recording (and IMO it's a terrible risk not to have one) a covert one may be your only option, as the DWP has just recently said there are not enough machines to meet all requests for recordings. They also said that unavailability of a machine is not a good enough reason to delay a medical. In other words you do not have a right to an ATOS-made recording. If you insist on delaying your medical until a machine is available your claim could be cancelled. Full story here http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/benefits-news/story/694

A benefitsandwork member reported that he asked ATOS to make a recording but didn't find out he wasn't getting one until his medical started and he realised there was no machine or technician in the room. In those circumstances you can't refuse to continue without risking the cancellation of your benefit. So you might want to equip yourself to make a covert recording just in case.

Even if ATOS does make a recording for you there have been instances of the machine being switched off and on during the medical, the microphone not picking up what's said during the physical examination while you are at the back of the room on the couch, and ATOS taking several months to send you a copy of the recording, hence holding up your appeal.

The DWP used to say that making your own recording is illegal. The benefitsandwork bloke (a barrister/benefits advisor I think) disputed this and the DWP took legal advice and backed down, in writing.

Since then there has been no published case of a claimant submitting their own recording at a tribunal. So the benefitsandwork people have come up with theoretical advice which has not been tested. This is what they say:

"we believe that the practice is legal provided claimants follow one golden rule: make the recording for your own use only. In other words, do not play the recording to other people or publish it on the internet. If you make a recording and you wish subsequently to use it as part of a complaint to the DWP or as part of the appeals process, then send the relevant office a transcript of the pertinent part of the tape. If someone, a tribunal chair for example, then asks for a copy of the recording then it is fine to send it them, but in no other circumstances should you play it or pass it on to other people. You should certainly not do so simply to embarrass or attack the DWP, if you wish to be certain that your actions are lawful."​
One of the benefitsandwork subscribers asked what to do with his secret recording a couple of months ago:

"I am helping my brother with his ESA appeal. He took a secret recording device into the ATOS medical with him. The Atos report totally ignores his reply for one section of the medical and thus no points were awarded for this section , which resulted in him failing. I will type up a transcript of what he actually said for this particular part of the medical and put the pertinent part of the tape on a CD as well of the beginning of the tape where the ATOS doctor introduces himself by name.​
​
Has anyone else presented this type of info to a Tribunial before? I would imagine most people have been recording their ATOS so called medicals for sometime now as it is so easy to do and ATOS have such a bad reputation."​
​
This was the answer from the resident expert:​
​
"As of the current date, I am not aware of anybody presenting "recorded" evidence of their medical to a Tribunal, that is not to say that it hasn't happened, just that I have not seen it reported anywhere.​
​
As there is no precedent for the inclusion of this type of evidence, I can only advise on what I believe will be required.​
​
So I would expect you, in order for Natural Justice to be seen to be done, to have to provide the whole recording rather than edited excerpts, to allow the DWP to rebutt any comments that might be made.​
​
Anything you want the panel to look at needs to have been transcribed in advance and made available to all parties (through the Tribunal Service), I think it unlikely in the extreme that the panel will listen to the the tape on the day of the hearing.​
​
The DWP may challenge the admissability of this evidence, whether it is accepted or not is at the discretion of the panel, although you can argue that in the cause of Natural Justice, that it should be accepted.​
​
You need to be aware that the DWP will be entitled to use their own "excerpts" to prove a point in exactly the same way as your brother intends, this may be to his disadvantage.​
​
Remember, the court is more interested in whether your brother meets the ESA criteria, than looking at why the DWP and ATOS say he doesn't, so don't ignore this aspect of his case and don't be surprised if the Tribunal are not overly interested in looking at your additional evidence."​
 
11alm3n.jpg
 
Frumious B. said:
WouldBe asked for the benefitsandwork spiel on covert recording, so I've been scouring the site.

Note that if you want a recording (and IMO it's a terrible risk not to have one) a covert one may be your only option, as the DWP has just recently said there are not enough machines to meet all requests for recordings. They also said that unavailability of a machine is not a good enough reason to delay a medical. In other words you do not have a right to an ATOS-made recording. If you insist on delaying your medical until a machine is available your claim could be cancelled. Full story here http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/benefits-news/story/694

A benefitsandwork member reported that he asked ATOS to make a recording but didn't find out he wasn't getting one until his medical started and he realised there was no machine or technician in the room. In those circumstances you can't refuse to continue without risking the cancellation of your benefit. So you might want to equip yourself to make a covert recording just in case.

Even if ATOS does make a recording for you there have been instances of the machine being switched off and on during the medical, the microphone not picking up what's said during the physical examination while you are at the back of the room on the couch, and ATOS taking several months to send you a copy of the recording, hence holding up your appeal.

The DWP used to say that making your own recording is illegal. The benefitsandwork bloke (a barrister/benefits advisor I think) disputed this and the DWP took legal advice and backed down, in writing.

Since then there has been no published case of a claimant submitting their own recording at a tribunal. So the benefitsandwork people have come up with theoretical advice which has not been tested. This is what they say:


"we believe that the practice is legal provided claimants follow one golden rule: make the recording for your own use only. In other words, do not play the recording to other people or publish it on the internet. If you make a recording and you wish subsequently to use it as part of a complaint to the DWP or as part of the appeals process, then send the relevant office a transcript of the pertinent part of the tape. If someone, a tribunal chair for example, then asks for a copy of the recording then it is fine to send it them, but in no other circumstances should you play it or pass it on to other people. You should certainly not do so simply to embarrass or attack the DWP, if you wish to be certain that your actions are lawful."​

One of the benefitsandwork subscribers asked what to do with his secret recording a couple of months ago:

"I am helping my brother with his ESA appeal. He took a secret recording device into the ATOS medical with him. The Atos report totally ignores his reply for one section of the medical and thus no points were awarded for this section , which resulted in him failing. I will type up a transcript of what he actually said for this particular part of the medical and put the pertinent part of the tape on a CD as well of the beginning of the tape where the ATOS doctor introduces himself by name.​
​
Has anyone else presented this type of info to a Tribunial before? I would imagine most people have been recording their ATOS so called medicals for sometime now as it is so easy to do and ATOS have such a bad reputation."​
​
This was the answer from the resident expert:​
​
"As of the current date, I am not aware of anybody presenting "recorded" evidence of their medical to a Tribunal, that is not to say that it hasn't happened, just that I have not seen it reported anywhere.​
​
As there is no precedent for the inclusion of this type of evidence, I can only advise on what I believe will be required.​
​
So I would expect you, in order for Natural Justice to be seen to be done, to have to provide the whole recording rather than edited excerpts, to allow the DWP to rebutt any comments that might be made.​
​
Anything you want the panel to look at needs to have been transcribed in advance and made available to all parties (through the Tribunal Service), I think it unlikely in the extreme that the panel will listen to the the tape on the day of the hearing.​
​
The DWP may challenge the admissability of this evidence, whether it is accepted or not is at the discretion of the panel, although you can argue that in the cause of Natural Justice, that it should be accepted.​
​
You need to be aware that the DWP will be entitled to use their own "excerpts" to prove a point in exactly the same way as your brother intends, this may be to his disadvantage.​
​
Remember, the court is more interested in whether your brother meets the ESA criteria, than looking at why the DWP and ATOS say he doesn't, so don't ignore this aspect of his case and don't be surprised if the Tribunal are not overly interested in looking at your additional evidence."​
Click to expand...

are they asking for a full transcription, as in every word written down, or a descriptive transcription. the wording seems to be suggesting a full transcription is what is necessaty. which unless you're experienced at doing them, can be a full day's work for a 40 min interview.for someone who can sit at a computer all day.

i'll also add that any set of notes taken during an interview can be invaluable in helping with transcribing, particularly if you are unable to transcribe yourself and need someone else to do this for you.if you ahve someone else transcribe who wasn't at the interview, then go through the transcription to correct any misinterpretations. i've done interview transcriptions in other circumstances, so i could potentially do one occasionally if someone dosen't have anyone else to ask.

if you do decide to get a digital recorder, test it to make sure it can pick up in whatever bag you will carry it into the interview in. and make sure you have one that has a usb port on it. a lot have no way to remove the files straight off them. and if you are going to provide copies if using them as evidence, then having the ability to place files onto a disk straight off the recorder is pretty much essential.i do happen to have one of these, i can potentially lend this. it's not a cheap piece of kit and i need it, so i can only lend it to someone i already know or someone that someone i know can vouch for.
 
Frumious B. said:
Apropos of nothing, here's something from the benefitsandwork forum which may interest people: there are certain medical conditions for which ATOS will use a doctor for your medical. For DLA medicals they seem to be contractually obliged to do this, for WCA ones they might just be following their own internal procedures. The list of conditions has not been made public but it includes TIA (aka mini stroke), MS, CFS/ME, musculoskeletal problems and dyspraxia. So maybe the rule is anything neurological, perhaps because non-doctors have difficulty assessing the claimant or understanding the documents they bring with them.
Click to expand...
Is there any mention of which DWP rule/ document that quote comes from?

My neuro-symptoms were assessed by a nurse.:mad:
 
toggle said:
are they asking for a full transcription, as in every word written down, or a descriptive transcription.
Click to expand...

There's no more information about that. Given that it's for a legal tribunal it's safest to assume that the transcription has to meet whatever standards the courts normally require. I don't know what they are. But I could ask at the benefitsandwork forum if you like.
 
equationgirl said:
Here's the first two paragraphs - I haven't been able read any further as anecdotal evidence reported on this and other sites has already indicated these statements not to be followed or true in practice:

"This training has been produced as part of a training programme for Health Care Professionals approved or appointed by the Department for Work and Pensions Chief Medical Adviser to carry out benefit assessment work.

All Health Care Professionals undertaking medical assessments must be registered medical practitioners, nursing practitioners or physiotherapists who, in addition, have undergone training in disability assessment medicine and specific training in the relevant benefit areas. The training includes theory training in a classroom setting, supervised practical training, and a demonstration of understanding as assessed by quality audit"

I dread to think what other 'gems' will be revealed (my bold for emphasis).
Click to expand...

Here it is, WouldBe - it's from the DWP training manual.
 
saw this in the news today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19370200
The government contractor Atos Healthcare has said it will review all the correspondence it sends to people claiming sickness benefits.
The announcement follows a "mistaken comment" in a letter - seen by BBC News - to a claimant with depression.
Atos incorrectly told the claimant that assessors were not required to be specifically trained in mental health.
The private firm said it would ensure that its letters were "clear and easy to understand" in future.
...
One of the claimants, Claire Whitwell, from Stockton on Tees, prompted Atos's review.
Ms Whitwell has social anxiety disorder and depression, but was declared fit to work following a medical assessment last year. The decision was later overturned by an appeals tribunal
In June, she was asked to attend another assessment to see whether her condition had changed.
Ms Whitwell said she had a panic attack, in part because she said the assessor did not know anything about depression, and complained to Atos over the incident earlier this month.
In the reply on 13 August, seen by BBC News, an Atos customer relations manager explained there was no requirement for assessors to be specifically trained in mental health.
However, an Atos spokeswoman has now said this comment was "mistaken", insisting that all assessors do have specific mental health training.
"We have improved the way we assess those with fluctuating and mental health conditions," the spokeswoman said.
"All our doctors, nurses and physiotherapists have received specific training in mental health and there are now mental function champions in place across our centres to offer.

But Ms Whitwell said Atos had made a terrible mistake and was now trying desperately to backtrack.
"The person who did my last two medicals was stated as a registered nurse. She clearly didn't have any mental health training," she said.
"The [Department for Work and Pensions] may as well have got a decision from a dentist."
..
In statements, the Department for Work and Pensions and Atos said they were working with disability groups to improve the medical tests, known as the Work Capability Assessment, and had recruited 60 "mental function champions" to give advice to the doctors and nurses carrying out the tests.
Click to expand...

"mental function champions"? :hmm:
 
Frumious B. said:
There's no more information about that. Given that it's for a legal tribunal it's safest to assume that the transcription has to meet whatever standards the courts normally require. I don't know what they are. But I could ask at the benefitsandwork forum if you like.
Click to expand...

how have atos provided recordings been used?

i would have thought tribunals would accept that a disabled person with limited capacity and resources might have difficulty providing a full transcript. but that would be the best.
 
toggle said:
a disabled person with limited capacity and resources might have difficulty providing a full transcript
Click to expand...

They can't even be expected to fill in the claim forms without falling into a trap! But that's just the way it is. I don't see how anyone who's not 100% can get the benefits they're entitled to unless they have an intelligent helper who signs up to benefitsandwork and treats every form as if it were an exam paper.
 
Frumious B. said:
Nobody knows. No documented cases published yet.
Click to expand...


nods.

I'll go with what i've said above then, if anyone needs a full trasncription of an interview and is unable to do one, i'm prepared to do the occasional transcription for them. for the record, i have sat through an appeal hearing.
 
I wonder if it would make sense to write to ATOS and ask for a doctor to do your medical? I'll ask at the benefitsandwork forum.

e2a: someone over there said: i had to see a doctor because i had a RTA i know if you,ve had a head injury you do have to see a doctor.

I also found this: In a Written Answer on 14 November 2011, Lord Freud (Minister for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions), replied:

The Government’s contract with Atos Healthcare requires that doctors are used to assess claimants with conditions that are likely to have complex central nervous system examination findings.

The majority of claimants with CFS/ME do not exhibit such signs and therefore CFS/ME is not on the list of conditions that are required to be assessed by a doctor. However, if a claimant with CFS/ME has neurological signs, they will be passed to a healthcare professional with the requisite expertise.



So it seems that what you need (to qualify for a doctor) is "complex" neurological probs. Dunno hoiw you define complex. Maybe you could write to Atos asking for a doctor and attach a letter from a GP or specialist with the word "complex" in it.
 
Frumious B. said:
I wonder if it would make sense to write to ATOS and ask for a doctor to do your medical? I'll ask at the benefitsandwork forum.

e2a: someone over there said: i had to see a doctor because i had a RTA i know if you,ve had a head injury you do have to see a doctor.

I also found this: In a Written Answer on 14 November 2011, Lord Freud (Minister for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions), replied:

The Government’s contract with Atos Healthcare requires that doctors are used to assess claimants with conditions that are likely to have complex central nervous system examination findings.

The majority of claimants with CFS/ME do not exhibit such signs and therefore CFS/ME is not on the list of conditions that are required to be assessed by a doctor. However, if a claimant with CFS/ME has neurological signs, they will be passed to a healthcare professional with the requisite expertise.



So it seems that what you need (to qualify for a doctor) is "complex" neurological probs. Dunno hoiw you define complex. Maybe you could write to Atos asking for a doctor and attach a letter from a GP or specialist with the word "complex" in it.
Click to expand...
The DWP has a list of evidence it will accept and who from, for each medical condition - choose the condition then look for 'sources of evidence' on the left hand side:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/
There's also a website with the most recent decision maker's guides for each benefit - might be useful :)
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/decision-makers-guide/#vol10
 
I have two conditions on that list and frankly it's not worth the paper it's written on, as the Atos assessor and the DWP decision maker, clearly in my case, dismissed or ignored the conditions affecting me on a daily 24/7 basis. That left me no option but to appeal.

Oh and to update. My concerns expressed in correspondence, which I highlighted in a letter to my MP, that was passed onto the Minister, Chris Grayling MP, received a response, a copy of which was forwarded to me. The only significant bit worth mentioning was Grayling's mention of Professor Harrington's review, but apart from that it was standard fayre.

Nevertheless, I feel that the 103 suicides attributed to Atos/DWP and the 32 deaths per week of those dying not long after having being found "fit for work", that I did raise concerns about in my letter, are now seared permanently on Grayling's brain.
 
audiotech said:
I have two conditions on that list and frankly it's not worth the paper it's written on, as the Atos assessor and the DWP decision maker, clearly in my case, dismissed or ignored the conditions affecting me on a daily 24/7 basis. That left me no option but to appeal.

Oh and to update. My concerns expressed in correspondence, which I highlighted in a letter to my MP, that was passed onto the Minister, Chris Grayling MP, received a response, a copy of which was forwarded to me. The only significant bit worth mentioning was Grayling's mention of Professor Harrington's review, but apart from that it was standard fayre.
Click to expand...

Standard template letter they said out to all complainants probably :rolleyes:
 
audiotech said:
Nevertheless, I feel that the 103 suicides attributed to Atos/DWP and the 32 deaths per week of those dying not long after having being found "fit for work" I did raise concerns about in my letter are now seared permanently on Grayling's brain.
Click to expand...

It would be nice wouldn't it, but somehow, I really don't think he'd give a toss :(
 
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