Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Minnie - this is the link I found earlier that states he must be seen by a practitioner experienced in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment. You might want to print it out and take it with you to any assessment.

Cheers. Sure you provided it elsewhere but I can't remember where. Probably buried under thousands of posts

 

[equationgirl]

Cheers. Sure you provided it elsewhere but I can't remember where. Probably buried under thousands of posts

I was just going back through this thread and found it, I'd remembered it the other day but couldn't find it. And yes, it was buried

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I was just going back through this thread and found it, I'd remembered it the other day but couldn't find it. And yes, it was buried

I'm not going through all these pages. I'm laying off here a bit to give arms a rest

 

[equationgirl]

Interesting observation article published by a Glasgow GP in the British Medical Journal:
http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e1114.full?ijkey=KKaJubnBTOqaO3z&keytype=ref

 

[equationgirl]

I'm not going through all these pages. I'm laying off here a bit to give arms a rest

You've put a lot of hours into getting the form filled out, you deserve a break.

 

[audiotech]

In an answer to a parliamentary question on Atos from Frank Field (lab) Chris Grayling said :

​

"Based on the results of a trial during 2011, we have not implemented universal recording for claimants going through the work capability assessment (WCA). ​

We have asked Atos Healthcare to accommodate requests for audio recording, where a claimant makes a request in advance of their assessment. ​

This approach began in late 2011 and we will monitor take up during 2012 before making a decision on the requirement for recording assessments, taking into account factors such as value for money and the value it adds to the WCA process. ​

As part of this process we are also reviewing Atos capacity to provide recordings for those claimants who currently request one".​

We at Disabled People against Cuts (DPAC), Black Triangle and Social Welfare Union (SWU) want to make sure that we gather the REAL facts on what people are experiencing. We suspect that the government will try to pull the option for recordings of WCA completely due to what they will say is a lack of demand, so we have put together a short survey to gather information on the demand for recordings and on other issues on the WCA.​

Please pass this survey on to as many people as possible. If you know someone who would like a printed paper copy of this survey please send their details to mail@dpac.net.uk​

​

The survey is confidential, not that long (mainly a tick box exercise). Likely for most to take just a few minutes of your time.​

​

Go to survey here:​

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FGKJBSQ​

 

[WouldBe]

Minnie - this is the link I found earlier that states he must be seen by a practitioner experienced in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment. You might want to print it out and take it with you to any assessment.

What happens if you have multiple problems? Do a team of ATOS doctors turn up ?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

What happens if you have multiple problems? Do a team of ATOS doctors turn up ?

That would be funny. Would need about 6

 

[Frankie Jack]

DWP Report: Decision making on Employment and Support Allowance claims pdf

Couple of points I found interesting as Atos always claim final decision lies with the DWP Decision Maker.

Page 29.
Although Atos HCPs did not have to change their advice (and it was up to the DM to decide whether to follow it or not, based on the balance of evidence), DMs in those Benefit Centres where they were advised to always refer back to Atos felt frustrated by instances when HCPs were reluctant to alter their views in light of additional evidence submitted by the claimant which was perceived to be substantial by the DM.
‘[Previous experience] doesn’t inspire me to send things back. Some of them [Atos HCPs] kind of give the impression that they are slapping your legs like how dare you question that!’

Page 34.

None of the DMs interviewed for the research had, at any point, received information on the number or types of decision they had made that had been overturned at the appeal stage. Without this, DMs felt that it was currently difficult to improve or learn. It also meant that there was no way for them to know whether new processes that had been introduced (such as needing to write more detailed justifications) were having an impact on the appeal rate. It was felt that if this feedback were available it would help inform DMs how to approach more complex or borderline cases in the future.

Page 37.

7.3.1 Communication of guidance on role of Decision Makers and Atos
The research found considerable variation in DMs’ views of their role in the decision-making process, and some felt that the consistency of the communication of guidance about their role could be improved. Although most reported that the publication of the first Harrington Review had initially led to them feeling more empowered to reach decisions based on their experience and expertise, many felt that they had since received instructions that removed some of the control that they had over decision-making.
Some felt that they still had some ability to reach their own decision over borderline cases where they disagreed with the Atos advice, while others felt limited in this respect. In the latter group were those who felt they had been expressly told that they could not make a decision that ran contrary to the Atos advice without securing Atos agreement to do this (which they had found Atos reluctant to provide).

Page 38.

7.3.7 Training for Decision Makers
Most DMs felt that they had not received any training that had been specifically designed for DMs. Instead, they felt that the training they had received had been adapted from material designed with other operational staff in mind. Some DMs felt they would benefit greatly from talking through case study claims and how they should be interpreted.
Some less experienced DMs felt that they would benefit from a better understanding of the implications of outcomes of ESA claims (i.e. what happens when claimants are disallowed or enter the WRAG). They felt that a better understanding of the support mechanisms in place for claimants in these groups would put them in a better position when explaining the implications of their decisions to claimants and in determining the suitability of particular outcomes for individual claimants.

 

[audiotech]

DWP Report: Decision making on Employment and Support Allowance claims pdf

Couple of points I found interesting as Atos always claim final decision lies with the DWP Decision Maker.

Thanks for that, but there is this to consider from a claimants viewpoint:

HCPs and Decision Makers are taught and encouraged to “read between the lines” on the assumption that this will get them nearer to the “truth”. The associated assumption that they think justifies this underhand approach is that all claimants are potentially or actually fraudsters, so there is a need to trip them up, catch them out etc. to uncover the deception they are bound to be perpetrating.
Quite how this attitude fits with the Civil Service Code of Ethics requiring integrity and honesty is a mystery and just another of the contradictions and overt hypocrisy being demonstrated by DWP through its welfare reform plans.

Don't have a source for this, but it was written on a blog by someone battling with both Atos Healthcare and the DWP.

 

[yardbird]

Don't have a source for this, but it was written on a blog by someone battling with both Atos Healthcare and the DWP.

I've read that blog and got wound up.
As an honest person, I answered the questions I was asked honestly (with slight adjustments tbf, to take into account an MS 'bad day') the least I would expect is to have my answers treated rationally by a rational person.
Not by some fucking mystic meg who is "reading between the lines"!

 

[equationgirl]

What happens if you have multiple problems? Do a team of ATOS doctors turn up ?

According to their rules, technically yes - and this is where the whole assessment as it currently stands breaks down, because it assumes from the start that the claimant only suffers from one complex condition (or at best, a number of 'simple' conditions that are inter-related). The software simply isn't designed to assess claimants with two or more complex conditions. Thus the idea that a 'healthcare practitioner' with no specialist knowledge or disability assessment training (mandated by the DWP manual) can accurately assess a claimant by using this software is laughable.

The LIMA software as used by atos is simply not fit for purpose in this context - in fact I doubt it's fit for anything to do with disability assessment.

 

[ericjarvis]

The LIMA software as used by atos is simply not fit for purpose in this context - in fact I doubt it's fit for anything to do with disability assessment.

It isn't intended for disability assessment. It is designed to create a bogus paper trail so that the DWP can "justify" taking benefits away from hundreds of thousands of sick or disabled people. As such it is eminently fit for purpose.

 

[Frances Lengel]

Well, one bit of good news though, a colleague of mine was meant to be having a medical at the end of this month, preparing for the worst I asked advice about appealing a decision a couple of pages back, anyway she got a letter yesterday saying something along the lines of Dear Mrs ***, due to the nature of your condition and the medical evidence we already have, you do not have to attend a medical and we will continue paying your ESA. Buzzing.

 

[equationgirl]

Well, one bit of good news though, a colleague of mine was meant to be having a medical at the end of this month, preparing for the worst I asked advice about appealing a decision a couple of pages back, anyway she got a letter yesterday saying something along the lines of Dear Mrs ***, due to the nature of your condition and the medical evidence we already have, you do not have to attend a medical and we will continue paying your ESA. Buzzing.

Great news Frances, made up for your colleague

 

[equationgirl]

It isn't intended for disability assessment. It is designed to create a bogus paper trail so that the DWP can "justify" taking benefits away from hundreds of thousands of sick or disabled people. As such it is eminently fit for purpose.

But that's precisely it - a BOGUS paper trail, which doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. Not when unqualified healthcare practitioners are used, and not when the 'reports' generated by the LIMA software are obviously rubbish. The fact that the appeal rate is 40-70% depending on the source bears this out.

Bottom line is that targeting some of the most vulnerable people in society is wrong, no matter what process is used. Target the people who are avoiding tax.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or, even better, target the politicians. Preferably with paper bags full of dogshit.

 

[equationgirl]

Or, even better, target the politicians. Preferably with paper bags full of dogshit.

No, not dogshit, the soiled clothing of those they're targeting. Call it karma.

 

[equationgirl]

And sent without the correct postage (if any) or a return address. Get them to pay for it.

 

[quimcunx]

Anyone put a link to this yet?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health...-at-treatment-by-benefits-officials-1-2422211

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Anyone put a link to this yet?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health...-at-treatment-by-benefits-officials-1-2422211

Not seen it, and no doubt, other than Disability websites and Scottish newspapers, you won't see it anywhere else

 

[treelover]

A few years ago Panorama broadcast the very influential 'Britain on the sick' programme primarily about de-industrialised areas like the Valleys and the rates of IB take up, (informed by useful idiot Prof Steve Fothergill of Sheffield Hallam Uni) it was challenged at the time(inc me!) and i reckon the onus is on the BBC to return there to see the impact of the reforms which were undoubtedly sped along by the impact of the programme on policy makers, etc..

 

[culder]

That's reminded me - I read somewhere else that Panorama will be about ATOS and ESA assessments on the 30th of this month - next Monday, everyone! Should be worth watching.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

That's reminded me - I read somewhere else that Panorama will be about ATOS and ESA assessments on the 30th of this month - next Monday, everyone! Should be worth watching.

Hm, does it clash with gymnastics?

 

[quimcunx]

Class traitor!

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Class traitor!

I shall watch one and record the other if that helps?

 

[audiotech]

More on recording assessments:

2) We informed the DWP that some people had reported being told that recordings would no longer be offered.

The DWP said that such advice was wrong: “If they [people taking WCAs] are being told that [it is no longer possible to have WCAs recorded], then they are being misinformed, because we know that there are working machines.” The DWP said it was “working to fix the machines - the few that have problems.” We asked what people should do if they were told that recordings were no longer being offered. The department's advice was that people should contact the DWP: “We're the ones that are owning this... If they are having misinformation, we can obviously follow that up with Atos.”

More here:

http://falseeconomy.org.uk/blog/mor...ity-assessment-is-atos-advice-right-or-the-dw

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

“We're the ones that are owning this... If they are having misinformation, we can obviously follow that up with Atos.” More here:

http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/...ith-request-to-audio-record-assessment-foi-r/

I can't keep up with this nonsense

 

[audiotech]

Once again the word 'shambolic' comes to mind.

 

[treelover]

That's reminded me - I read somewhere else that Panorama will be about ATOS and ESA assessments on the 30th of this month - next Monday, everyone! Should be worth watching.

Good, get it up on youtube, it will just be washed away with all the Olympics stuff, and it will be on BBC2...