equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
If you can prove it's untrue, through GP records, I don't see why not.
Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
I don't really have any supporting GP evidence. They've not been very helpful, and it would only be proven by a lack of evidence.
Anyway, no point going down this road until we hear back from these people. I've made a complaint with the WCA so that might net me a big fat compensation cheque
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
What do you have? A diagnosis letter? Any type of third party documentation?I don't really have any supporting GP evidence. They've not been very helpful, and it would only be proven by a lack of evidence.
Anyway, no point going down this road until we hear back from these people. I've made a complaint with the WCA so that might net me a big fat compensation cheque
Initially stress depression and paranoia. I personally believe I'm ASD (I'm not an expert), but couldn't get a diagnosis.
I've largely given up on doctors. They haven't anything more to offer and I've pursued it with them to the fullest. I am better than I was, largely through changing my diet, however my fundamental issues are largely social based. To put very simply I find life and society an incredibly difficult proposition to navigate. ESA remains the least worst option I've found to get by. But in lieu of anything else I don't really know what to do. But the system doesn't really help move forward.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Yeah that's true, it's a kind of holding pattern limbo. You can only do your best.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
It should be quite easy if you've got a copy of the report that says you're violent. Would be a bit hard for the health 'professional' to deny being un-professional.
E2a: Even easier if they find you fit for work as they would be contradicting themselves.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
There won't be a report. It will be a little bit of Chinese Whispers with no clear trail connecting Rivendell's alleged admission of social difficulties with the appearance of a flag on his file.
Everything with these cunts is about plausible deniability, from the neat stitchup between DWP and assessment provider to the total lack of accountability for decision-making within DWP.
Yes. In fact I don't even really like discussing this sort of thing because to give voice to it can lea people to believe it because..."no smoke" and all that.
I hate that shit. Part of my psychology is that I can't deal with subterfuge or duplicity or hidden agendas. When people aren't honest I struggle. I just don't get violent.
I think that the WCA people, in passing the case back to the DWP (which they were not asked to do), attaached some furtive innuendo. According to the DWP what qualifies for this kind of marker isn't just a punch in the face, it can include Intimidation, Persistent harassment, or Severe or persistent verbal abuse. Easily manufactured.
(source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/234137/response/578030/attach/4/Unacceptable Claimant Behaviour Procedure Process Guide v1 Final.pdf)
Unfortunately it seems that to get this removed requires evidence of changed behaviour, not just the person asking. In other words (and I could be wrong) that can only come from the WCA people. Gotcha!
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I'd step back from the "gotcha" mindset, because it's going to get you nowhere. Take "gotcha" back to them and watch as you enter a Kafkaesque world where your (reasonable) satisfaction at having proved them wrong is swivelled into a perfect demonstration of your potentially violent status. It's just not worth it. They hold all the aces, so there's no point playing poker with the cunts.Yes. In fact I don't even really like discussing this sort of thing because to give voice to it can lea people to believe it because..."no smoke" and all that.
I hate that shit. Part of my psychology is that I can't deal with subterfuge or duplicity or hidden agendas. When people aren't honest I struggle. I just don't get violent.
I think that the WCA people, in passing the case back to the DWP (which they were not asked to do), attaached some furtive innuendo. According to the DWP what qualifies for this kind of marker isn't just a punch in the face, it can include Intimidation, Persistent harassment, or Severe or persistent verbal abuse. Easily manufactured.
(source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/234137/response/578030/attach/4/Unacceptable Claimant Behaviour Procedure Process Guide v1 Final.pdf)
Unfortunately it seems that to get this removed requires evidence of changed behaviour, not just the person asking. In other words (and I could be wrong) that can only come from the WCA people. Gotcha!
And they do hold all the aces, because they're the ones with the money you need. I'm afraid you're going to have to be resigned to playing the long game - stick out calmly and quietly for your rights, gather evidence, quietly and assiduously as you go, and aim to be at a place, when it moves out of their hands, to be able to slam-dunk them with the evidence you've been collecting - including anything like this "potentially violent" nonsense. The tribunal will have seen it all before, and DWP, when they're suddenly presented with a catalogue of the shit they've been dishing out, will almost certainly - as they usually do - fold at that stage.
And just hope like fuck that there is an afterlife and a hell, and that the cunts who come up with this bullshit, and the craven fools who carry it out, find themselves spending eternity paying for their deeds.
Judging by the (*cough* anecdotal) rate of mental health problems at a DWP operations centre near here, you probably don't even need to wait for the hereafter- there are a LOT of very unhappy DWP employees.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I thought I had seen all their dirty tricks but blimey this is a new low Rivendelboy. Holy shit.
ViolentPanda if you're around, and if you're up to it, please could you take a look at Rivendelboy's posts and let the thread know if you've seen this type of thing about claimants being labelled violent wrongly before? Any ideas or advice gratefully received.
Rivendelboy I completely believe you, i'm trying to understand if this is a systemic failure/loophole that's happening, a policy decision or a rogue assessor.
ViolentPanda if you're around, and if you're up to it, please could you take a look at Rivendelboy's posts and let the thread know if you've seen this type of thing about claimants being labelled violent wrongly before? Any ideas or advice gratefully received.
Rivendelboy I completely believe you, i'm trying to understand if this is a systemic failure/loophole that's happening, a policy decision or a rogue assessor.
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"Gotcha" was clumsily referring to me - they've got me, and by the shortest and curliest.
I certainly haven't "got" them.
I'm not even sure I have any evidence. At least not for now: it depens on how they handle the complaint and what the FOI request to the DWP reveals. I wish I'd kept the appointment letter from March. But you live and you learn...the hard way.
Thanks, but given the subjective nature of the behaviours I listed it's impossible to tell. All the assessor people has to do is say "I felt threatened by his language on the phone".
It's possible, if paranoid, that they could fake attendance and claim I threatened them in person. However that seems a stretch, though the reason I rang them on that day (though I can't prove it unless they have a record of that phone call) is to avoid them pretending they did turn up. I never dreamed it might be something like this (assuming it is).
xsunnysuex
Life is a horizontal fall.
After talking to the assessment centre and explaining how much the stroke has affected my brother. He received a call this morning saying he no longer needs to be assessed. His claim will continue. 
BCBlues
Lend us a Twenner
After talking to the assessment centre and explaining how much the stroke has affected my brother. He received a call this morning saying he no longer needs to be assessed. His claim will continue.
Nice one. Well done
Always good to hear of wins like this 
After talking to the assessment centre and explaining how much the stroke has affected my brother. He received a call this morning saying he no longer needs to be assessed. His claim will continue.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Nice one xsunnysuex
Gaia
Urban's Village Idiot
Precisely. I've heard of cases where, when a HV has been arranged that the assessor has then claimed that the claimant has been aggressive towards them. I'm now being dicked around for PIP, part of my problems is autism and part of that is elective mutism stemming from childhood abuse. If any of you fuckers was sat in front of me, I'd not be able to talk to you ('unmedicated' that is). The problem would be further compounded by the fact that I still live with my abusers, and there abuse comes from the fact that they won't accept that I need people to accommodate me (if I suddenly became NT they'd be falling over themselves to support me). I tried to get out, but physical ill-health forced me back and I've now been stuck here for over 7 years without any help or support a) because there's fuck all around here (this is a Tory county) and b) I don't feel safe having anyone come to the house when they're here.
If I was to have a HV, my fear would be compounded at them - well usually my mother - screaming at me to do so. I can't physically get anywhere, because I can't walk, I'm in too much pain. They believe the system is just despite me being a victim of it (to quote my father "They have to have some kind of assessment otherwise someone could simply say 'I can't walk, give me money'".)
I often think the 'PV' tag is a way to simply deny more people money. My suggestion would be to record it, just like a plod interrogation. You have to apply in advance and use of phones is prohibited, whilst this doesn't prevent all bullshit, at least it would prove you weren't violent. audio-recording-wca-assessments
Sorry for hijacking your thread Rivendelboy.
No need to apologise.
It's a thread for everyone so no worries.
It's entirely possible they didn't attend my HV because they decided to bullshit me. That's one of the darker elements in all this: that it makes us second guess ourselves and become, justifiably, paranoid. People shouldn't be treated like this, but they are. I don't really think they intended not to turn up though, it doesn't ring true. The PV marker wasn't attached - so they say - until after the appointment. If it were there before they wouldn't have bothered booking it, I would think. But, again, who knows? I rang them the same day they were supposed to attend. Though it's entirely possible they didn't keep a record of that call, or could just lie to that end, I've done all I can. They can't legitimately claim I was at fault (not bothering to answer the door, or behaving violently during the assessment). Though of course the could just lie. Since they are investigating themselves....who knows what will happen.
I would be interested to learn, from those that know: does the claimant have to sign anything during a home visit? To show they've been assessed and have some proof that the person turned up etc? IIRC you have to sign (and show more ID than when you open a bank account ffs) when you attend the centre.
It's a thread for everyone so no worries.
It's entirely possible they didn't attend my HV because they decided to bullshit me. That's one of the darker elements in all this: that it makes us second guess ourselves and become, justifiably, paranoid. People shouldn't be treated like this, but they are. I don't really think they intended not to turn up though, it doesn't ring true. The PV marker wasn't attached - so they say - until after the appointment. If it were there before they wouldn't have bothered booking it, I would think. But, again, who knows? I rang them the same day they were supposed to attend. Though it's entirely possible they didn't keep a record of that call, or could just lie to that end, I've done all I can. They can't legitimately claim I was at fault (not bothering to answer the door, or behaving violently during the assessment). Though of course the could just lie. Since they are investigating themselves....who knows what will happen.
I would be interested to learn, from those that know: does the claimant have to sign anything during a home visit? To show they've been assessed and have some proof that the person turned up etc? IIRC you have to sign (and show more ID than when you open a bank account ffs) when you attend the centre.
Does anyone know what the rules are regarding getting a WCA appointment changed or postpoened? I've been told you are allowed to do it once and then presumably you'd need a good reason (like being dead - although I shouldn't joke, I doubt they'd even accept that!)
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Not sure but record the assessment. That way you will have a record of it.
Sure but not one you can use
WouldBe
Dislicksick
You can try.
Take their photo as they come up your path. They have no right to privacy in a public place so can't refuse.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
The form seems to be - record it covertly, then have a friend "taking notes". Then transcribe the recording, and voila! Usable evidence.
Oh i see, no I haven't been permitted a home visit. That's what I've been talking about.You can try.
Take their photo as they come up your path. They have no right to privacy in a public place so can't refuse.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
If you read your post I replied to you were asking how to prove you had had a home visit. Hence my replies.
I received the response to my complaint today. I guess I can't fault them for responding promptly. Just got off the phoen with the "customer" service manager (the sick are buying a service don'tcha know) to clarify a few things that weren't, imo, entirely accurate.
Essentially it's just clerical bullshit and miscommunication. They are saying that they shouldn't have offered a home visit to begin with and are very sorry a lot. With respect to the home visit that was booked, the person didn't attend because, upon examining my case notes, didn't feel safe. The PV marker was (apparently) there all along, as a result of indicating an "unstable personality disorder" (paranoia and anxiety/frustration I guess). So they shoudln't even have booked the appointment to begin with, especially in light of a lack of supporting evidence for one. So despite leading me to think otherwise, it was never going to happen. Not only that but their offer to rebook that appointment, after I rang to find out why they hadn't attended, was also a 'mistake'; apparently they have to refer cases back to the DWP, and it's the DWP who are meant to explain reasons to me, which makes no sense. The WCA people arne't allowed to communicate this stuff.
It's probably true - from their point of view. In other words it's just clerical/admin legalese bullshit. None of this addresses anything; they can conceivably mess me around repeatedly. I had rung earlier to rebook the appointment, which was easy enough (I can't do this friday as my companion is on holiday - hopefully he'll be available next time, if not I can't rebook). The complaints person ssures me someone qualified to deal with neurological issues (that's how they classify optical/eye related problems), but they didn't seem to realise I had changed the appointment. Why there isn't someone like that permanently on hand escapes me, you'd think that would be the norm.
Don't know if that made any sense. I'm not going to type out the entire letter. They offered me £25 compensation (when they get around to paying it, I had to mail in my bank details which seems entirely reliable and secure practice). I did try and question that because honestly messing around vulnerable people seems otherwise something they can do with impunity. She asked me what figure I had in mind but I just let it go, I have no idea what figure and telling them to add a zero to the end just felt gauche as fuck! Oh well. I doubt they'd agree to that.
It's all subjective. The problems are systemic and complaints like this will address nothing: lessons to be learned etc
Essentially it's just clerical bullshit and miscommunication. They are saying that they shouldn't have offered a home visit to begin with and are very sorry a lot. With respect to the home visit that was booked, the person didn't attend because, upon examining my case notes, didn't feel safe. The PV marker was (apparently) there all along, as a result of indicating an "unstable personality disorder" (paranoia and anxiety/frustration I guess). So they shoudln't even have booked the appointment to begin with, especially in light of a lack of supporting evidence for one. So despite leading me to think otherwise, it was never going to happen. Not only that but their offer to rebook that appointment, after I rang to find out why they hadn't attended, was also a 'mistake'; apparently they have to refer cases back to the DWP, and it's the DWP who are meant to explain reasons to me, which makes no sense. The WCA people arne't allowed to communicate this stuff.
It's probably true - from their point of view. In other words it's just clerical/admin legalese bullshit. None of this addresses anything; they can conceivably mess me around repeatedly. I had rung earlier to rebook the appointment, which was easy enough (I can't do this friday as my companion is on holiday - hopefully he'll be available next time, if not I can't rebook). The complaints person ssures me someone qualified to deal with neurological issues (that's how they classify optical/eye related problems), but they didn't seem to realise I had changed the appointment. Why there isn't someone like that permanently on hand escapes me, you'd think that would be the norm.
Don't know if that made any sense. I'm not going to type out the entire letter. They offered me £25 compensation (when they get around to paying it, I had to mail in my bank details which seems entirely reliable and secure practice). I did try and question that because honestly messing around vulnerable people seems otherwise something they can do with impunity. She asked me what figure I had in mind but I just let it go, I have no idea what figure and telling them to add a zero to the end just felt gauche as fuck! Oh well. I doubt they'd agree to that.
It's all subjective. The problems are systemic and complaints like this will address nothing: lessons to be learned etc
Gaia
Urban's Village Idiot
Yes, you can but - and there's always a fucking enormous but with these cunts - you have to do it THEIR way, which means you can't, as I said before, use your phone. Did you read that link I gave you about the recording criteria…? Ask them to record it (you can't exactly do it yourself as they insist on a tape-to-tape machine and I don't know where the fuck you'd get one of those).
I don't suppose you've anything as useful as a CAB round your way, have you…? If not, I found this: Find a legal advice clinic near you | LawWorks you might be able to find someone who can at least give 'em an initial swift knee in the bollocks.
You'll probably have better luck finding someone than I just did with my postcode, had to expand to a 20 mile radius to get results. That's because this is South Bucks, there's fuck all here because this is what used to be known as the stockbroker belt (Knobhead Nige is one of my MEPs).
This is why they abolished legal aid for welfare issues, because they know what they're doing is unlawful, so they've made is as difficult as fucking possible for us to get what's rightfully ours.
Oh how I WISH Philip Alston's report was legally binding and not just advisory!
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Needless to say, there is no way they'd have let him NEAR anything important if there had been any risk that his findings would have been binding on the Government...
Thanks but at this point it's over. The complaint got me nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it. There's no obligatoin for any of these people to give a shit.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Just remember, they have millions of people to deal with; you have just the one scumsucking organisation of bastards. Keep plodding forwards, document everything, and be that relentless David, advancing on the Goliath with a sling and a handful of stones. Enough have gone before you, and landed them one right between the eyes (remember, that massive appeal overturn rate?). Stay with it, if you can, and do it for all those who can't stay with it. And if you're one of those who can't stay with it, be assured that those who can will themselves be hurling stones at the behemoth. Ultimately, it WILL lose.
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