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Are you an anarchist but not a member of an anarchist organisation?

Anarchist organisation involvement poll


  • Total voters
    95
That was your first post, in full, raising the issue. (post #643)

You may have later tried to squirm a bit, but calling out Solfed for being scabby isn't particularly helpful when there's serious industrial action taking place.
Plus the idea that Solfed are scabby is utterly laughable and anyone that was within them who thought that would be challenged.

It was also exactly what AmateurAgitator was trying to imply as well which is strange be honest. I agree with some of the points you make at times even though they get a bit repetitive. Throwing shade at Solfed and other organisations that are actually trying to do the grassroots organising you talk about so much is odd.
 
It was also exactly what AmateurAgitator was trying to imply as well which is strange be honest. I agree with some of the points you make at times even though they get a bit repetitive. Throwing shade at Solfed and other organisations that are actually trying to do the grassroots organising you talk about so much is odd.

Righteous purity is a buzz isn't it.
 
Considering the fact that the transport system was operated by collectivised transport associations that achieved significant improvements for transport workers and the public and that the directors etc were discharged then I don't think I interpret it the same way as you.
As a transport spod I'd be happy to read about / discuss what actually happened in detail - detail which the article you pointed to is rather light on. Fair enough if they managed to take it over & run it as a collective for some period of time but I'm interested in the longer term stuff like investment in and maintenance of infrastructure, and how that would be organised and funded under a federated kind of structure. My impression is that the Barcelona system doesn't actually provide us with an example of this. Doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done - it's just that it doesn't demonstrate that it can work, because it was something that existed for a short time, inheriting things like infrastructure and timetabling and so on, ready made, from the previous regime.
 
As a transport spod I'd be happy to read about / discuss what actually happened in detail - detail which the article you pointed to is rather light on. Fair enough if they managed to take it over & run it as a collective for some period of time but I'm interested in the longer term stuff like investment in and maintenance of infrastructure, and how that would be organised and funded under a federated kind of structure. My impression is that the Barcelona system doesn't actually provide us with an example of this. Doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done - it's just that it doesn't demonstrate that it can work, because it was something that existed for a short time, inheriting things like infrastructure and timetabling and so on, ready made, from the previous regime.
You'll probably find a bit more detail in this: Collectives in the Spanish revolution
 
You'll probably find a bit more detail in this: Collectives in the Spanish revolution
Thanks.

I've read the section of that about the Barcelona Tramways. Taken at face value, it sounds like what was achieved was indeed significant. For example it describes various system wide infrastructure upgrades and the development of new vehicle types. It describes higher wages, lower fares and better services. Enthusiastic and motivated workers fully signed up to the ideals.

To what extent can I take that account at face value though? It's very clear that the author wants to promote a certain ideology.

If I seek out information on the history of Barcelona's tramways, what I find seems to fall into two categories. Firstly there's info on anarchist type websites. In many of these articles, text is directly copied from this book. We hear about how the entire war damaged network was restored to operation in 5 days.

Secondly there's the mainstream internet, and here, articles about Barcelona's public transport network don't provide any accounts of these remarkable achievements in the three or four years between 1936 and 1939. Instead they describe at the end of that period a decrepit network with only 50 functioning trams and multiple points of failure in the electrification system.

Ok, I shouldn't necessarily take either version as the full picture. But when my googling of various terms including trams and barcelona takes me to apparently more serious historical accounts like this one


Certainly it seems reasonable to take the account of the situation in that Gaston Leval book as a very selective and rose tinted one.

On top of the unreliability of the source, the fact that we're talking about something that existed in unusual circumstances for only a few years doesn't really persuade me of very much. In particular, the idea that it's a real life example of a truly bottom-up, worker controlled organisational structure looks like a bit of a fantasy to me.
 
Thanks.

I've read the section of that about the Barcelona Tramways. Taken at face value, it sounds like what was achieved was indeed significant. For example it describes various system wide infrastructure upgrades and the development of new vehicle types. It describes higher wages, lower fares and better services. Enthusiastic and motivated workers fully signed up to the ideals.

To what extent can I take that account at face value though? It's very clear that the author wants to promote a certain ideology.

If I seek out information on the history of Barcelona's tramways, what I find seems to fall into two categories. Firstly there's info on anarchist type websites. In many of these articles, text is directly copied from this book. We hear about how the entire war damaged network was restored to operation in 5 days.

Secondly there's the mainstream internet, and here, articles about Barcelona's public transport network don't provide any accounts of these remarkable achievements in the three or four years between 1936 and 1939. Instead they describe at the end of that period a decrepit network with only 50 functioning trams and multiple points of failure in the electrification system.

Ok, I shouldn't necessarily take either version as the full picture. But when my googling of various terms including trams and barcelona takes me to apparently more serious historical accounts like this one


Certainly it seems reasonable to take the account of the situation in that Gaston Leval book as a very selective and rose tinted one.

On top of the unreliability of the source, the fact that we're talking about something that existed in unusual circumstances for only a few years doesn't really persuade me of very much. In particular, the idea that it's a real life example of a truly bottom-up, worker controlled organisational structure looks like a bit of a fantasy to me.
You don't seem to think that the mainstream Internet sites you've consulted might be interested in promoting a certain agenda. Revealing.
 
You don't seem to think that the mainstream Internet sites you've consulted might be interested in promoting a certain agenda. Revealing.
Thought you were going to put me on ignore.

Anyway, in anticipation of dull remarks such as the one you have offered, I specifically stated that I shouldn't take either version as presenting the full picture.
 
Sure teuchter, Leval would certainly have a partisan view, but that doesn't necessarily negate what he's saying. I read that book over 30 years ago and from what I remember, he was able to be critical of some of the collectives he looked at, so not so much a rose tinted view. On the other hand, those who are most critical (ie Communist Party, some Republican factions, Francoist, and various right wing commentators) do indeed have their own agenda.
 
Also, from what I remember Seidman's work has its value and is worth engaging with, but Gaston Leval's work is actually informed by direct first-hand experience of the Spanish collectives, whereas Seidman was born in 1950. Obviously secondary historical analysis has its place, but I'd be wary of using terms like "more serious historical accounts" that seem to privilege it over direct accounts.
 
Fwiw, I can't for the life of me remember where I found it, but I swear I saw a pretty cutting critique of Seidman's approach somewhere - thought it might have been on libcom but the tag doesn't have anything too critical, then thought it might've been on here but I don't think that's it either, closest thing I could find was this decade-old thread with BA being BA, which is quite entertaining but not what I was looking for.
 
Also, from what I remember Seidman's work has its value and is worth engaging with, but Gaston Leval's work is actually informed by direct first-hand experience of the Spanish collectives, whereas Seidman was born in 1950. Obviously secondary historical analysis has its place, but I'd be wary of using terms like "more serious historical accounts" that seem to privilege it over direct accounts.
When I said "apparently more serious historical accounts" I meant in comparison to those in what I was calling the "mainstream internet" sites. For example

The image of crowded trams with lots of people hanging from their boarding steps is part of the image of the city that was organising the Universal Exposition of 1929. There were 800 trams during that time. running along a network more than 200 km and capable of transporting over 250 million passengers a year.
The system was very badly affected by the Fascist uprising in 1936 and subsequent civil war. By the time the war ended, there were barely more than 50 units in working condition. The service was gradually re-established and even extended during this difficult stage, seeing through the strike of 1951, a big popular protest against the rise in ticket prices which was repeated in 1957.


During the the Spanish War, the public transport network was heavily damaged. But, just from 1939, the tramways network started to circulate. The electric restrictions were very frequently, and the service was very bad. The tramways were crowded with people. In the 1950´s and 1960's, the service improved.

Public transport was affected greatly by the ravages of the Civil War. Many of the tram lines were damaged by air-raids, and sabotages of the rail networks also took place. In addition to this, there was very little capital available with which to run the transport system. In the aftermath of war, the city’s transport networks were gradually repaired and reinstated. In 1951, the municipal government gradually began to take over the management of transport services which had previously been run by private companies.

These are a few sites which simply provide an outline view of the history of the tram network - they are not detailed academic type histories like the Seidman one (I know nothing about Siedman - it's simply something that came up in google) which are more focused on the politics.

What I note about all those "mainstream internet" overviews is that none of them see what happened between 1936-39 as of significance, as far as the tram network is concerned, other than that it was a period where a great deal of damage was done, in the civil war, which then took some time to repair. That is at odds with what's described by Leval, which makes it sound like something very significant happened. I did deliberately choose to say that possibly neither account gives the whole picture - the wording that sent Pickmans into a projection frenzy - because one way in which they could both be "true" is that initially a great deal of work was done to repair the network but towards 1939 other things happened which then undid this.

If this was a UK tram system I'd expect to find rather a lot of detail on this kind of history - especially if electrical wiring was redesigned or tracks re-aligned. There would be a bunch of photos of the work happening, maps showing exactly which bits were done in which year and so on. There's nothing like that in the Leval account - we just have to take his word for it.

Of course, if I could search / read in Spanish or Catalan maybe it would be possible to dig up lots of information of this kind.
 
I'm not sure "by then end of the war" and "during the period of the war in which reorganisation of the prior system took place" are as simultaneous as all that. One is change enacted in the space provided by the liberation of a space, the other is the ravaged end result of the fascist victory.
 
I'm not sure "by then end of the war" and "during the period of the war in which reorganisation of the prior system took place" are as simultaneous as all that. One is change enacted in the space provided by the liberation of a space, the other is the ravaged end result of the fascist victory.
Well, yes, that's not disagreeing with what I've said.
 
To be honest, I'd be more surprised if mainstream authors did spend more time on civil war transport achievements than to those made during the fascist and post-fascist reconstruction.

Ooh look, an anarchist tram :thumbs:

Catalunya-Barcelona-Documentary-Series_0014_bcn000718-1936-Woman-working-as-tram-operator-in-Barcelona-during-Spanis-768x576.jpg

And a bus!
Catalunya-Barcelona-Confederaci%C3%B3-Nacional-del-Treball_0000_1936-First-bus-created-under-collectivization-by-CNT-member-768x576.jpg
 
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When I said "apparently more serious historical accounts" I meant in comparison to those in what I was calling the "mainstream internet" sites. For example

The image of crowded trams with lots of people hanging from their boarding steps is part of the image of the city that was organising the Universal Exposition of 1929. There were 800 trams during that time. running along a network more than 200 km and capable of transporting over 250 million passengers a year.
The system was very badly affected by the Fascist uprising in 1936 and subsequent civil war. By the time the war ended, there were barely more than 50 units in working condition. The service was gradually re-established and even extended during this difficult stage, seeing through the strike of 1951, a big popular protest against the rise in ticket prices which was repeated in 1957.


During the the Spanish War, the public transport network was heavily damaged. But, just from 1939, the tramways network started to circulate. The electric restrictions were very frequently, and the service was very bad. The tramways were crowded with people. In the 1950´s and 1960's, the service improved.

Public transport was affected greatly by the ravages of the Civil War. Many of the tram lines were damaged by air-raids, and sabotages of the rail networks also took place. In addition to this, there was very little capital available with which to run the transport system. In the aftermath of war, the city’s transport networks were gradually repaired and reinstated. In 1951, the municipal government gradually began to take over the management of transport services which had previously been run by private companies.

These are a few sites which simply provide an outline view of the history of the tram network - they are not detailed academic type histories like the Seidman one (I know nothing about Siedman - it's simply something that came up in google) which are more focused on the politics.

What I note about all those "mainstream internet" overviews is that none of them see what happened between 1936-39 as of significance, as far as the tram network is concerned, other than that it was a period where a great deal of damage was done, in the civil war, which then took some time to repair. That is at odds with what's described by Leval, which makes it sound like something very significant happened. I did deliberately choose to say that possibly neither account gives the whole picture - the wording that sent Pickmans into a projection frenzy - because one way in which they could both be "true" is that initially a great deal of work was done to repair the network but towards 1939 other things happened which then undid this.

If this was a UK tram system I'd expect to find rather a lot of detail on this kind of history - especially if electrical wiring was redesigned or tracks re-aligned. There would be a bunch of photos of the work happening, maps showing exactly which bits were done in which year and so on. There's nothing like that in the Leval account - we just have to take his word for it.

Of course, if I could search / read in Spanish or Catalan maybe it would be possible to dig up lots of information of this kind.
I didn't say they couldn't both be true, did I. I said that you didn't recognise your 'mainstream' sources might have their own agenda. You're might be really stupid or really dishonest but my money's on both
 
I didn't say they couldn't both be true, did I. I said that you didn't recognise your 'mainstream' sources might have their own agenda. You're might be really stupid or really dishonest but my money's on both
You saying something does not make it true. Take a little time to get your head around this idea.
 
teuchter the lack of detailed evidence that you would like, about the transport network in Barcelona, may have something to do with the subsequent 40 years of brutal military dictatorship, massive censorship and the death, exile or imprisonment of so many of those involved. Plus, at the time, other things seemed more important than creating tram spotter manuals and the like.
 
teuchter the lack of detailed evidence that you would like, about the transport network in Barcelona, may have something to do with the subsequent 40 years of brutal military dictatorship, massive censorship and the death, exile or imprisonment of so many of those involved. Plus, at the time, other things seemed more important than creating tram spotter manuals and the like.
Yup, happy to recognise that.
 
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