Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?

[PR1Berske]

ding, ding

Over 80% of railway ticket sales are through ticket machines or digitally on phones/online. That's a significant number of passengers, of all ages, who have already made the switch to digital. On TfL, integrated ticketing is bringing British travel in line with the Netherlands, Germany etc, and again, it's a very high percentage of passengers who use digital tickets or contactless payments.

As I said earlier, treating all pensioners, those with mental health issues, and other groups as one amorphous blob who can neither learn new technologies, or who can't access help, is distasteful for them, and unhelpful in your argument. If granny can learn Facebook, she can buy an advance saver return to Dorking.

 

[brogdale]

Over 80% of railway ticket sales are through ticket machines or digitally on phones/online. That's a significant number of passengers, of all ages, who have already made the switch to digital. On TfL, integrated ticketing is bringing British travel in line with the Netherlands, Germany etc, and again, it's a very high percentage of passengers who use digital tickets or contactless payments.

As I said earlier, treating all pensioners, those with mental health issues, and other groups as one amorphous blob who can neither learn new technologies, or who can't access help, is distasteful for them, and unhelpful in your argument. If granny can learn Facebook, she can buy an advance saver return to Dorking.

And if she can't?

 

[PR1Berske]

And if she can't?

That can't be the flat out refusal to modernise. It's just a brick wall to progress.

Nearly 9 out of 10 passengers use digital. Queuing up at a desk while your train pulls away is no way to run a railway.

 

[brogdale]

That can't be the flat out refusal to modernise. It's just a brick wall to progress.

Nearly 9 out of 10 passengers use digital. Queuing up at a desk while your train pulls away is no way to run a railway.

I find this attitude quite uncaring. It also allies with the forces that seek to de-labour service, person-facing and caring industries. The corporations only want to do these things to cut their costs and maximise their returns.

 

[PR1Berske]

I've been having a think about my replies so here's a kind of steam of consciousness attempt at going over my opinions on this.

I'm no Tory, believe me. My posts do sound rather "and now let's hear from the Rail Delivery Group" so here goes trying to sort everything out.

I visited somewhere recently, Northwich or Nantwich, I always get them muddled. Ticket office at the station. One man, twiddling his thumbs. Literally twiddling his thumbs. Passengers walking past, some with phones in hands, some buying tickets at the machine. Whatever jobs he may have had, whatever role he may have been waiting to do later, the public perception was "he's getting paid to sit in a room doing not very much"

I was on a train to Ilkley the other month. Guard checking tickets through the carriage. Bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep: digital tickets every single time. Not a single paper ticket. On the way back - I'm a groundhopper so always doing these jaunts - one passenger had a paper ticket and joked with the guard, "Suppose I'm rather old fashioned." While he bleeped my digital ticket the guard agreed: "Don't see them very often!"

I know that anecdote isn't the plural of data and I'm not using these as a wrecking ball to anyone's argument. But looking at bored employee, and digital guard, and putting them together with observations at my local station, the age of the ticket office being the hole in the wall with a queue isn't as secure as it used to be. The statistics back this up: 80%+ tickets are digital or machine bought.

I don't want to sound harsh, or heartless, or Tory. I enjoy this forum a lot and I know that I agree with a lot of posters here more than I disagree (except with Brewdog, where I appear to be at odds with two posters in particular)

Maybe this is just one of those topics where I can see a genuinely better industry, one with integrated ticketing, modern connectivity, better trains for staff and passengers, modern station facilities, all the things we should have were it not for shitty politicians and shitty vested interests. There's very few subjects where I disagree with the consensus on here so now I'm really aware of 'standing out' by supporting the railways taking people out of the offices and into the platforms.

Honestly, hand on heart honestly, I don't want to lock granny away because she can't work Trainline, and I don't want to keep people with health issues from enjoying a day out somewhere. The industry must do better to bring everybody along, I honestly believe that. It's just where I differ, really, is wanting to go ahead with improvements now, while posters want a better opportunity for marginalised people first, before changes to the system.

This is a long post . I just get so anxious about putting a foot wrong here.

 

[SpookyFrank]

When I think of people getting paid to do fuck all it's not people in station ticket offices that spring to mind. More like consultants getting 500 quid an hour just to recommend firing everyone else to save money.

I get my tickets at the ticket office wherever possible. Paper tickets don't run out of battery and leave you stranded. If everyone used them there'd be no massive pile up of people who didn't bother to find the right thing on their phone before they got to the ticket barrier. It's also quicker to get tickets from the office, and unlike the DIY machines no ticket clerk ever got Falmouth and Falkirk mixed up.

Maybe most people use e tickets but most people on trains are probably London commuters and London commuters are all fucking miserable so let's not force everyone to copy what they do.

 

[teqniq]

I always buy paper tickets from an actual human and there's nearly always a queue to buy them at Cardiff central.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

by supporting the railways taking people out of the offices and into the platforms.

except that, like most times bosses talk about 'freeing up' workers to do other things, it's bullshit (as with supermarkets and automated tills. where the heck are all the staff that were 'freed up' from checkout work? they just aren't there any more. it may not have led to actual redundancies, but less recruitment, zero hour staff having their hours cut and so on.)

this is just about cutting jobs (partly for questionable cost savings which will be offset by more fare evasion as ticket purchase becomes increasingly optional, and partly political spite) and the basic message (as you also come across as advocating for the NHS) is 'if you're unable to use the automated machines or do it online, or if you don't understand the system and need a bit of help and advice, then tough, fuck off' - which will disproportionately affect people with eyesight problems, people with disabilities and older people (and of course combinations of same.)

by all means use technology to make genuine improvements but this is about cutting jobs and further enshittification of everyday life.

 

[brogdale]

enshittification of everyday life.

all of that, but for that particular word that I intend to use today.

 

[The39thStep]

The idea that the motive in the mass closure of ticket offices and the issuing of notifications that jobs are at risk, in order to cut costs is to usher in ' a genuinely better industry, one with integrated ticketing, modern connectivity, better trains for staff and passengers, modern station facilities' by 'taking people out of the offices and into the platforms' is frankly deranged.

 

[brogdale]

I've been having a think about my replies so here's a kind of steam of consciousness attempt at going over my opinions on this.

I'm no Tory, believe me. My posts do sound rather "and now let's hear from the Rail Delivery Group" so here goes trying to sort everything out.

I visited somewhere recently, Northwich or Nantwich, I always get them muddled. Ticket office at the station. One man, twiddling his thumbs. Literally twiddling his thumbs. Passengers walking past, some with phones in hands, some buying tickets at the machine. Whatever jobs he may have had, whatever role he may have been waiting to do later, the public perception was "he's getting paid to sit in a room doing not very much"

I was on a train to Ilkley the other month. Guard checking tickets through the carriage. Bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep: digital tickets every single time. Not a single paper ticket. On the way back - I'm a groundhopper so always doing these jaunts - one passenger had a paper ticket and joked with the guard, "Suppose I'm rather old fashioned." While he bleeped my digital ticket the guard agreed: "Don't see them very often!"

I know that anecdote isn't the plural of data and I'm not using these as a wrecking ball to anyone's argument. But looking at bored employee, and digital guard, and putting them together with observations at my local station, the age of the ticket office being the hole in the wall with a queue isn't as secure as it used to be. The statistics back this up: 80%+ tickets are digital or machine bought.

I don't want to sound harsh, or heartless, or Tory. I enjoy this forum a lot and I know that I agree with a lot of posters here more than I disagree (except with Brewdog, where I appear to be at odds with two posters in particular)

Maybe this is just one of those topics where I can see a genuinely better industry, one with integrated ticketing, modern connectivity, better trains for staff and passengers, modern station facilities, all the things we should have were it not for shitty politicians and shitty vested interests. There's very few subjects where I disagree with the consensus on here so now I'm really aware of 'standing out' by supporting the railways taking people out of the offices and into the platforms.

Honestly, hand on heart honestly, I don't want to lock granny away because she can't work Trainline, and I don't want to keep people with health issues from enjoying a day out somewhere. The industry must do better to bring everybody along, I honestly believe that. It's just where I differ, really, is wanting to go ahead with improvements now, while posters want a better opportunity for marginalised people first, before changes to the system.

This is a long post . I just get so anxious about putting a foot wrong here.

My honest reaction is that you're displaying a degree of naivety about the motivations and intentions of the corporations involved in harnessing technology to cut labour. They do not view their (often fleeting) ownership as an opportunity of creating a genuinely better industry or bringing everybody along; their aim is to maximise their returns.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So you arrive at a station, go past the closed ticket office, get past the ticket barrier by magic, and then buy a ticket once on the platform?

Also don't most stations have more platforms than ticket offices?

 

[brogdale]

On a not completely unrelated note, my (90YO partially sighted) old Mum rang me yesterday in a bit of a flap as her local pharmacy has just informed her that she can no longer ring through her repeat prescriptions; she was told she'd have to do it online.

I suppose businesses take their lead from the 'top' and just don't care about the consequences of these technological, cost-saving wheezes for the old, the vulnerable or those excluded from the digital world.

 

[chainsawjob]

I'm doing my local one.

Keep Our NHS Public

Keep Our NHS Public

keepournhspublic.com

To bring this back to discussion on the NHS, it went well. It's a while since I've done any leafletting/political stuff on the street corner. Many people were happy to take a leaflet, a few to sign a postcard to their MP. One conspiraloon who thought the NHS is thoroughly corrupt and run by evil authoritarians, muttered about Covid, and various misdeeds on the NHS's part with recording deaths during the pandemic. Several people who said 'I work for the NHS, I know all about it'. Most interaction was positive though, especially from older people, some of whom remembered a time before the NHS.

I think I shall try and get involved more in my local branch of KONP. I already know all the people from previous LP (no longer a member), Unite, or general demo occasions.

 

[chainsawjob]

That's really bad brogdale.

 

[brogdale]

That's really bad brogdale.

The trouble is, of course, that as soon as one pharmacy in the town does this the others will all follow.

 

[brogdale]

The unpleasant woman who spoke with my mother and told her about the online only 'service' said "well, Mrs Brogdale, you've just got to get with it and get online, after all how do you get your shopping?"

I was fuming after she told me that and I put the phone down.

 

[brogdale]

There are days when this country's descent down the shitter gets me down.

 

[kalidarkone]

Just found put from one of the porters yesterday that there is a serious drive to privatise portering services in the Trust I work for.

This will mean that the varing porter roles will go unrecognised and current terms and conditions will be negated and the job will be less secure.

I hope they strike.

 

[kalidarkone]

The unpleasant woman who spoke with my mother and told her about the online only 'service' said "well, Mrs Brogdale, you've just got to get with it and get online, after all how do you get your shopping?"

I was fuming after she told me that and I put the phone down.

I'd put a HUGE complaint in. It is discrimination. All services should be accessible- that means a variety of ways for people to be able to order and pick up their prescriptions. Worth a letter to your ma's MP.

 

[brogdale]

I'd put a HUGE complaint in. It is discrimination. All services should be accessible- that means a variety of ways for people to be able to order and pick up their prescriptions. Worth a letter to your ma's MP.

Was thinking about just that and will do today.
But...said MP is...



who's entire, pre-MP, career was spent at McKinsey's privatising the NHS from within, so i expect fuck all help...but, you're absolutely right that she needs to hear.

 

[chainsawjob]

The trouble is, of course, that as soon as one pharmacy in the town does this the others will all follow.

You'd hope some of them would have more understanding of the needs of some of their customers than that. Whether they can sacrifice profit and 'efficiency' for that reason is another matter, maybe the smaller independent chemists.

I struggle with using online GP systems when my mental health is bad. The interminable questions you have to answer (all about your previous health and mental health history, how much you drink, how much you smoke blah blah blah), all to get an answer on a simple question. They seem to want your inside leg measurement and more. I've given up in frustration, and anger! I won't use e-Consult any more.

Not surprised you're fuming after what the woman said to your mother

 

[SpookyFrank]

NHS online stuff is a fucking nightmare. It's all set up to look joined up but when you actually try to do anything it just ends up being half an hour to figure out that the only thing to do is phone our GP surgery. Who will either not pick up the phone at all or will tell you to fuck off and do it online.

 

[newme]

If it’s proper health care rather than one of those ‘you pay and can claim most of it back’ schemes…

I’d say damn well bother with it.

The difference is startling and you are actually lifting some burden off a stretched NHS.

The danger is you might get used to it and find it hard to go back to plain old NHS.

I’ll admit I felt a bit of a class traitor using it at first but I can live with being a class traitor when the alternative is waiting years on the NHS on an emergency list. Yeah a two year wait and I was on the quick list!!!

Yeh its sort of a mix as its the free one provided, can upgrade but I haven't used it and that really just increases the money back, it does covers my kid but not SO.
24/7 GP access and unlimited counselling however seems a bonus, money back on prescriptions so it makes the prepaid cheaper and things like some amount towards eg dental since it seems impossible to get an NHS dentist here despite there being one 50m from my door. Money back if I have to stay in hospital things like that, can get on quick lists but the amount paid back is minimal compared to the potential costs unless you go way up which then costs so much you might as well just pay when it comes up.

Our GP surgery is actually really easy to get a same day appointment, any wait is usually because I have been seeing the same one for years and so keep with them so thats my choice anyway and I rarely need to do anything now that isn't some prescription issue with an over enthusiastic pharmacist or supply issue. Any time I get another one they start trying to change things that work and try things that have been tried 5 years ago and didn't work, one tried to put me onto a very steep reduction plan for one of my medications which would have lead to seizures. Pain clinic tried to prescribe literally the only thing I have on my medical records that I have an adverse reaction to, given that was hallucinating I declined, while not actually unpleasant it was not compatible with daily life. Now the surgery pharmacist deals with it and its all a lot smoother, shame Boots are constantly late with a predictable prescription or don't bother having a key holder for one cabinet in first thing for some reason but I have enough put away to deal with it so it has no effect.

Dental cover is what I would really like them to have properly included. I don't have any issues but there are genetic things on my SO's side which are likely to cause more expense later on. Why teeth are different from everything else seems rather strange.

 

[quimcunx]

I don't know what kind of backswoods GP surgeries you folks are going to but my results are all available to me online through Patient Access (an admittedly privatised service latched on to the nipple of the NHS), including whether its in the normal range. I guess it highlights how unevenly GP services are rolled out when your GPs are private themselves.

E2a, in theory they can also book appts etc through Patient Access, though they choose not to, probably because of uneven internet access.

I can, in theory, book a gp appointment on patient access but can't see my test results.

 

[teqniq]

I was completely disgusted to see May and Barclay attending a lunch to celebrate the NHS's 75th birthday. Have they no regard to what they have and are presiding over? At least they got booed on the way in, lots of OB there doing their protect the cunts act.

 

[Karl Masks]

That fucking Kate Andrews ghoul is really driving me nuts. I nearly tweeted something that would have gotten me banned (which she would have fgleefully reported despite protesting for free speech at every turn). I'm so sick of her and the rest the right wing constantly chipping away. Endlessly knocking our only health service. People who put their lives on the line during the pandemic, who work like fucking demons and get shat on by her. This massive straw man "the nhs isn't a religion". No one thinks it's a religion, you fucking piece of dog shit, we think it's pretty special because it cares for us and it's staff do their damnedest day in and day out to care. Which is more than that worthless cunt can ever claim. FUCK!

 

[Wilf]

I was on a train the other month, to Ilkley. Every passenger in my carriage had digital tickets except one, and the guard had a good laugh with them about being "old fashioned".

The customer base is already shifting from queuing for paper tickets; they expect digital tickets for air travel, gigs, even hotel bookings. Queuing up for a paper ticket works for the old fellas at the heritage railways, it's no longer how society functions.

Like I said earlier, there are ways to help people get access to tickets. There will be staff on platforms.

I don't like all the plans from the government and I sure as hell don't support them. But in some ways the railways have to avoid being themselves turned into heritage lines.

After years of going on trains quite infrequently, I've been on a fair number this last 12 months, both a local line and and Darlington to Kings X. Tickets still very much in evidence in my experience, even if a minority.

Anyway, I've just checked smartphone ownership by age group. I saw one Statista figure that said for the over 65s, the figure was 69% (the graph is paywalled, so I won't link). Similarly, this shows a figure of 78% for over 55s:

UK Mobile Phone Statistics 2023 - Mobiles Facts and Stats Report

We’ve collated the latest UK mobile phone statistics and trends for 2023, covering mobile phone ownership statistics, sales, usage, connectivity, and more.

www.uswitch.com

The point is of course, that smartphone ownership will be much lower as you go through the age ranges into the 70s and 80s. And then of course, you can add in whether people of all ages have credit and a charged up device. But more importantly, even if older people have a smartphone, it doesn't mean they are either knowledgeable or, crucially, confident to use the phone for paid services (they may just use it for browsing, calls and texts), There's masses of anxiety out there in terms of downloading apps and, particularly, putting banking details into a phone. And technocratic answers about phones and security down touch that. If you don't know enough to do this confidently, you don't know what you don't know, Also, a perfect scenario for scammers.

I'm personally sick of slowly but inexorably being pushed into interacting with the world through apps, AI and other highly rationalised systems that don't deliver a scintilla of 'customer satisfaction' and actually fuck with people's jobs. I'm not a tech refuser, I'm just fucking sick of it being used to manage me, push me in directions I don't want to go, limiting options rather than expanding them.

 

[teqniq]

Really good article from a GP here:

A GP’s prescription for the NHS at 75

 

[Lorca]

My partner, a Nurse was chatting to a very experienced Doctor the other day who was speculating, hypothesising? that she thinks NHS primary GP practice as we know it is not going to exist soon, possibly within a decade. She was saying that loads of GP's are quietly looking in to setting up private practices because they see the writing on the wall. Dentistry was the test run, seen as successful. Apparently the initial set-up costs are high, but long term they see it as the way things are going whether they like it or not (and many DO like it). She said that unsurprisingly there's been a massive shift in numbers of people now buying private healthcare which has recently caused some problems due to over-subscription but they will be solved by expanding the private sector.
Eventually anyone wanting a GP will have to pay or if they can't, will have to queue up in a rump NHS setting to most likely be seen by a 'Noctor' - that is an Advanced Nurse Practitioner or a Physicians Associate. Problem with that is, she said in many cases, not to denigrate them but they just don't have the diagnostic skills and experience that GP's have, which I can well believe tbh. It's also probably why they are moving to pharmacists doing some lower level diagnostic and prescribing work (albeit, pharmacists can be extremely skilled knowledgable.) Three GP's were laid off from the same surgery recently, doubtless replaced by cheaper 'Noctors.'This will all be painted as inevitable and for the best by the usual scumbags.
Just feels so helpless at the moment, it's massively dispiriting and depressing, my partner is constantly exhausted from understaffing and morale is just at rock bottom, at least in her setting. I don't even know why i'm writing this, I can't do fuck-all about it and hardly anyone seems to even care, including the very people who need the NHS the most. Is there any hope?