Appealing to People on the basis of their irrational beliefs?

[tbaldwin]

Appealing to so called different communities eg Muslims,Jews etc doesnt it just play into the hands of people who want to push irrational beliefs....How far should the govt reach out to people on the basis of their religion or for that matter RESPECT etc?

How far should rational people go to embrace irrational beliefs?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well, you want the government to respond to some extremely irrational beliefs about immigration and law and order, so perhaps you might be able to answer your own question.

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, you want the government to respond to some extremely irrational beliefs about immigration and law and order, so perhaps you might be able to answer your own question.

Think youve got the wrong thread.

 

[In Bloom]

Well, you want the government to respond to some extremely irrational beliefs about immigration and law and order, so perhaps you might be able to answer your own question.

I disagree with tbaldwin's idea of what the solutions to the problems surrounding immigration and law and order under capitalism are, but being concerned about wages/working standards being undercut, having your house burgled or getting mugged is not irrational, at least not for the vast majority of people.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Ah, here's dear In Bloom with his straw man again. It must be like carrying around Worzel Gummidge.

 

[mk12]

Appealing to so called different communities eg Muslims,Jews etc doesnt it just play into the hands of people who want to push irrational beliefs....How far should the govt reach out to people on the basis of their religion or for that matter RESPECT etc?

How far should rational people go to embrace irrational beliefs?

Groups should appeal to people based on their class, and their class alone. I don't care how the government "reach out" to people.

Are you talking about positive discrimination?

 

[Plato1983]

Groups should appeal to people based on their class, and their class alone. I don't care how the government "reach out" to people.

Wrong.

Marxism, Anarchism and other hate filled 'class war' ideologies have proven beyond doubt to be horrific failures with hellish results.

Patriotism is the only unifier of society, all other systems seek to have nations tear themselves up into civil strife and endless conflict.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Is 1983 the year you were born?

 

[mk12]

Wrong.

Marxism, Anarchism and other hate filled 'class war' ideologies have proven beyond doubt to be horrific failures with hellish results.

Patriotism is the only unifier of society, all other systems seek to have nations tear themselves up into civil strife and endless conflict.

Because nationalism hasn't had hellish results

 

[In Bloom]

Don't start on Plato1983, he's a philosopher king, you know.

 

[In Bloom]

Ah, here's dear In Bloom with his straw man again. It must be like carrying around Worzel Gummidge.

Okay, what "irrational beliefs about immigration and law and order" is tbaldwin arguing for a response to?

 

[Streathamite]

Wrong.

Marxism, Anarchism and other hate filled 'class war' ideologies have proven beyond doubt to be horrific failures with hellish results.

Patriotism is the only unifier of society, all other systems seek to have nations tear themselves up into civil strife and endless conflict.

utter, utter ignorant, braindead bullshit as usual, and not worthy of any greater response...

 

[Dandred]

utter, utter ignorant, braindead bullshit as usual, and not worthy of any greater response...

Empty your box commie

 

[Dandred]

Wrong.

Patriotism is the only unifier of society, all other systems seek to have nations tear themselves up into civil strife and endless conflict.

 

[In Bloom]

I'm afraid your Godwin's Law busting response is in vain, Plato1983 is a "totalist" (i.e. psuedo-fascist with severe delusions of grandeur).

 

[TAE]

Appealing to so called different communities eg Muslims,Jews etc doesnt it just play into the hands of people who want to push irrational beliefs....How far should the govt reach out to people on the basis of their religion or for that matter RESPECT etc?

How far should rational people go to embrace irrational beliefs?

One person's irrational belief is another person's logic.

 

[TAE]

Patriotism is the only unifier of society, all other systems seek to have nations tear themselves up into civil strife and endless conflict.

That's an excelent example of an irrational belief !

 

[ViolentPanda]

Patriotism is the only unifier of society, all other systems seek to have nations tear themselves up into civil strife and endless conflict.

And as we all know, the greatest expression of patriotism is to fight, and perhaps die, for ones' country.

In which case please tell me when you'll be enlisting as an infantryman to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Or are you an "armchair patriot", willing to shriek your sad message, but not to actually wager even as worthless a bauble as your own life?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm afraid your Godwin's Law busting response is in vain, Plato1983 is a "totalist" (i.e. psuedo-fascist with severe delusions of grandeur).

I think your description is far too kind.

In my opinion "pseudo-fascist without the self-regard and self-belief to acknowledge their dependence on that particular ideology".

 

[Tom A]

Groups should appeal to people based on their class, and their class alone.

I tend to go and judge people on the basis of their charachter, personality, and the way they treat others, and I don't see why I should start condemning othewise decent people because the laws of anarchism dictate that they are in the wrong class.

But then I'm a liberal hippie scumbag.

 

[bluestreak]

anarchism isn't hate filled. anarchism is full of kittens, love, fairy dust and doing good deeds for each other. the only hatred anarchism has is for exploitation, greed, and fucking people over for no good reason.

so bog off toryboy.

 

[anybodygotapen?]

Wrong.

Marxism, Anarchism and other hate filled 'class war' ideologies have proven beyond doubt to be horrific failures with hellish results.

Patriotism is the only unifier of society, all other systems seek to have nations tear themselves up into civil strife and endless conflict.

I'm rather interested in your ideas of 'patriotism'

Are you pro or anti free trade liberalism Plato1983?

Just a thought like

 

[anybodygotapen?]

anarchism isn't hate filled. anarchism is full of kittens, love, fairy dust and doing good deeds for each other. the only hatred anarchism has is for exploitation, greed, and fucking people over for no good reason.

so bog off toryboy.

 

[In Bloom]

I tend to go and judge people on the basis of their charachter, personality, and the way they treat others, and I don't see why I should start condemning othewise decent people because the laws of anarchism dictate that they are in the wrong class.

Class is about what you do and how you treat others. It's about how much power you have and how you came to have it.

But then, I'm a hate-filled, class reductionist scumbag

 

[Tom A]

anarchism isn't hate filled. anarchism is full of kittens, love, fairy dust and doing good deeds for each other. the only hatred anarchism has is for exploitation, greed, and fucking people over for no good reason.

Ok, yes that is what really is about, on paper. However the rehtoric that comes up on these and other message boards is often about condemnation of those who don't think the way they do.

Class is about what you do and how you treat others. It's about how much power you have and how you came to have it.

Who gets to decide who is and isn't in the right class? I judge people on their own individual merits.

 

[big footed fred]

Appealing to so called different communities eg Muslims,Jews etc doesnt it just play into the hands of people who want to push irrational beliefs....How far should the govt reach out to people on the basis of their religion or for that matter RESPECT etc?

How far should rational people go to embrace irrational beliefs?

Perhaps the other way round is better and the newer groups in the UK need to reach out and normalise themselves.
I man dressed in arab dress unable to speak english stands out.
The same man changed into western clothing and trying to learn english gets a better reaction.

The way to defeat racism is not to reach out but to make the new groups just some more people in the street. It's lack of understanding on both sides that allows the extremes to preach hate.

 

[In Bloom]

Who gets to decide who is and isn't in the right class? I judge people on their own individual merits.

It's not about who's "in the right class" it's about our interests as working class people versus the interests of the ruling/boss/employing/bourgeois/whetever class. The two are ultimately irreconcilable.

And it's not about individuals, per se. There's no point trying to go about saying "this person's in this class, that person's in that class" unless you're talking about clear examples, for instance, the CEO of IBM is a member of the boss class, but it's not as clear cut when you're dealing with, say, a person who is due to inherit a fortune once their parents snuff it but is currently working a crap minimum wage job and living in a bedsit in a shitty part of town. Bottom line, class as applied to individuals can get a bit messy and it's too complicated to bother with a lot of the time.

It amazes me that somebody can claim to be an anarchist and then reject the class analysis that pretty much the entire political tradition of anarchism has been based upon without even attempting to understand it properly.

 

[Tom A]

It's not about who's "in the right class" it's about our interests as working class people versus the interests of the ruling/boss/employing/bourgeois/whetever class. The two are ultimately irreconcilable.

And it's not about individuals, per se. There's no point trying to go about saying "this person's in this class, that person's in that class" unless you're talking about clear examples, for instance, the CEO of IBM is a member of the boss class, but it's not as clear cut when you're dealing with, say, a person who is due to inherit a fortune once their parents snuff it but is currently working a crap minimum wage job and living in a bedsit in a shitty part of town. Bottom line, class as applied to individuals can get a bit messy and it's too complicated to bother with a lot of the time.

Ok, yeah, I pretty much agree you there. However I don't see large swathes of the working class rallying behind the "class war" banner anything soon, dare I say many people probably think such ideas died with the Soviet Union (and yes I know that the Soviet Union was never anarchist, IMO it wasn't even socialist!)

It amazes me that somebody can claim to be an anarchist and then reject the class analysis that pretty much the entire political tradition of anarchism has been based upon without even attempting to understand it properly.

And as I said in a previous post, I don't consider myself an anarchist. If I am forced to pigeonhole myself I call myself a socialist, and I derive a lot of my worldview from the some parts of Marxist and anarchist theory.

 

[In Bloom]

Ok, yeah, I pretty much agree you there. However I don't see large swathes of the working class rallying behind the "class war" banner anything soon, dare I say many people probably think such ideas died with the Soviet Union (and yes I know that the Soviet Union was never anarchist, IMO it wasn't even socialist!)

Class isn't an idea, it's a matter of fact.

As far as I'm concerned, the reason most people aren't interested in what the far left has to say is because we're not talking about things that are relevant to them.

And as I said in a previous post, I don't consider myself an anarchist. If I am forced to pigeonhole myself I call myself a socialist, and I derive a lot of my worldview from the some parts of Marxist and anarchist theory.

You could insert "socialist" or "Marxist" in there and it'd be just as applicable.

You can't be a socialist and not have a class analysis, by definition.

 

[tbaldwin]

Groups should appeal to people based on their class, and their class alone. I don't care how the government "reach out" to people.

Are you talking about positive discrimination?

1 I think it does matter how govts reach out to people matt they bring money and influence.I also think that groups like RESPECT appealing to people as Muslims etc is dodgy.....

2 It isnt what i meant but in some cases i am strongly in favour of positive discrimination.