Aotearoa: 14 y/o & under will never be able to buy tobacco, for life

[Petcha]

They will end up with the perfect storm of smuggled tobacco, falling tax revenues and rising smoking related heath costs.

I can't see it going well as prohibition never goes well but it's an interesting attempt

 

[Petcha]

Nah the referendum failed 48/52. Ardern was in favour of decrim but didn't say publicly until after the result which was classic bottling it centrism.

I dont quite get this then. She's criminalising tobacco but is in favour of decriminalising cannabis?

 

[Balbi]

I dont quite get this then. She's criminalising tobacco but is in favour of decriminalising cannabis?

She said she was in favour but only after it was defeated at the referendum and her govt ministers have said they're not going to do it while they're in govt. Centrism is the drug we need to ban here.

 

[Balbi]

Some more colour detail here...

There will be no future for tobacco. New Zealand will be the first country in the world to ban the legal purchase of cigarettes by younger generations, with the government preparing a bill that will likely impact every child alive today. As RNZ reports, it’s an admission from the Beehive that hiking taxes on tobacco can only go so far in the pursuit of the country’s Smokefree 2025 goal. Associate health minister Ayesha Verrall said that people aged 14 when the law comes into effect, likely in 2023, will never be able to buy cigarettes, with the age of those covered by the ban rising annually after that.

Along with the ban, there are tough new restrictions. For older consumers still allowed to purchase cigarettes, the situation will also be changing—although it probably won’t happen for several more years. Only tobacco products containing very low levels of nicotine will be allowed on the shelves at dairies. While the number of retailers carrying tobacco, now over 8,000, will be cut to about 500. Smoking is this country’s leading cause of preventable death and accounts for a quarter of all cancers. According to The Guardian, the goal of the legislation is to get smoking rates below 5% by the midpoint of this decade. Pākehā are on track for that target, according to Verrall, as smoking rates have plummeted over the past decade overall. However, for Māori and Pacific peoples, those rates are still far higher, at 29% and 18% respectively.

So it's a hard cutoff for young people born after 2009, I think. But the slow bring-down of nicotine rates and who can sell will be in the years after that.

Cutting the retailers from 8,000 to 500 highlights one thing sometimes people forget, there's only 5,000,000 odd of us down here. I suspect that means the end of dairies selling them, maybe restricting them just to supermarkets only - or specific tobacconists (which would be new but unlikely). Our Tories support it, as long as there's enough detail on how to deal with a black market in smokes.


Glossary:

Pakeha = white people
dairies = local shop

 

[hitmouse]

Still can't get over the image of being like a 50-year-old, or similar, kiwi in 30-odd years' time, going down the shops and being plagued by 40-somethings hanging around on the corner outside going "here, pal, can you go in the shop for us?"

 

[seeformiles]

Its a bit of a false claim that "big tobacco" adds hundreds of chemicals - More that many are the residue of the various fertilisers/antifungals/insecticides used in cultivation and curing, plus a great deal of the rest are the byproducts of inefficient combustion when smoked. Which can produce a whole and rather unpredictable spectrum of nasty stuff!

A friend of mine studied chemistry at New University of Ulster and, as part of the course, visited the Gallagher’s factory in Belfast. He told me that it opened his eyes as to what went into Old Holborn - namely a mix of sugars, flavourings and all sorts of additives that came in the form of a thick tarry substance that infused the raw tobacco. Put him right off smoking after that.

ETA My mate grew tobacco from seed and smoking it was the mildest most pleasant experience compared with commercial brands

 

[Balbi]

Still can't get over the image of being like a 50-year-old, or similar, kiwi in 30-odd years' time, going down the shops and being plagued by 40-somethings hanging around on the corner outside going "here, pal, can you go in the shop for us?"

Doing a burnout in my motorised wheelchair smoking a fat cigar.

 

[hitmouse]

Doing a burnout in my motorised wheelchair smoking a fat cigar.

Marvellous post/avatar combination there.

 

[alfajobrob]

Seems a bit patronising to the indigenous population to me if 30% of them currently smoke.

I wonder what proportion of the voters they make up of New Zealand?

It's a bit we know better and they can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

 

[Yossarian]

They will end up with the perfect storm of smuggled tobacco, falling tax revenues and rising smoking related heath costs.

It's not like this is an overnight change they'll have no time to adjust to - there would still be people buying cigarettes legally in NZ today if this law had been introduced in 1960.

 

[BristolEcho]

I'll admit I'm not that plugged into the party drug scene and haven't been for years, but I know plenty of space cadets round here and I've literally not heard of it being available or anyone talking about it being available since it was banned. There was a long tail of people taking a different synthetic that had a similar name but everyone hated but took anyway (Methylone?), but methedrone itself completely disappeared overnight in my circles.

MDMA "came back" around that time I think? When I started to go out all the pills were shit. Drone was an okay alternative, but seemed a bit pointless if you could get pills and/or speed. Think K was having a rough patch around that time.

We still saw it around for quite a while and you can still get it, but it's not anywhere near as popular as it was before obviously.

Banning cigarettes is stupid in my opinion.

 

[scifisam]

It doesn't actually sound like a bad plan. Bring it in slowly, because very few smokers actually want to kids to take it up, and give adults a lot of time to give it up.

Not sure it'd work anywhere else except possibly Australia or Iceland, but that doesn't mean NZ shouldn't do it. If it fails, it fails.

FWIW when it comes to dope, when I've been in LA most of the people I knew who smoked dope didn't use tobacco with it. But of course you don't have to smoke it anyway, and it does actually have health benefits, though not as many as some users claim for it.

I think there's a cultural difference here too, especially with alcohol arguments.

In Aotearoa, you can buy beer and wine but can't buy spirits at a supermarket, you can't buy beer at your local shop at all, you've got to go to a liquor store for spirits and a liqour store or chain supermarket for beer.

If you're in a licensing trust area, you can't even buy alcohol at a supermarket.

Much more of a home drinking culture rather than a bar/pub culture too, because the weather's nice and pints are $10+.

Switching all smokes to low nicotine and restricting sales sites is gonna do a lot, and reckon vape stores are going to do very well out of this.

There is also the big difference that you can drink alcohol in a way that isn't very damaging to you or others. Smoking isn't like that. And I'm far, far from a virulent anti-smoker, I just admit that the risks aren't just to the person smoking.

 

[Balbi]

Seems a bit patronising to the indigenous population to me if 30% of them currently smoke.

I wonder what proportion of the voters they make up of New Zealand?

It's a bit we know better and they can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

Ten years ago it was 41%, so numbers are dropping. They're setting up a Maori Health Authority, healthcare for and run by Maori, in the next year or two (the right wing are going mad about this obviously) - and the accountability committee they've announced alongside this has got some serious weight in Te Ao Maori. You wouldn't characterise Tarania Turia or Hone Harawira as Govt stooges - Turia quit Labour and started The Maori Party over the foreshore and seabed act, and Uncle Hone has been running the vaccine campaign up north and sorting out the checkpoints to keep his people safe.

The chair is Dame Tariana Turia DNZM. The other members are former Te Tai Tokerau MP, Hone Harawira; Research Evaluation Consultancy Director, Nan Wehipeihana; Executive Director of Arai Te Uru Whare Hauora, Donna Matahaere-Atariki MNZM; and Hāpai Te Hauora Chief Executive Officer, Selah Hart. Each member is a leader in advancing health for Māori and offers a unique blend of expertise including knowledge of tobacco control and the public health sector.

The implementation plan shows they're going to boost funding for community stop smoking, established organisations and drive that towards 2025 as well. It's not just a big stick they're hitting smokers with.

 

[girasol]

I'll admit I'm not that plugged into the party drug scene and haven't been for years, but I know plenty of space cadets round here and I've literally not heard of it being available or anyone talking about it being available since it was banned. There was a long tail of people taking a different synthetic that had a similar name but everyone hated but took anyway (Methylone?), but methedrone itself completely disappeared overnight in my circles.

Methylone from what I remember (I bought it a couple of times at around the same time as mephedrone) was mellower, more like mdma. I liked it!

 

[alfajobrob]

Ten years ago it was 41%, so numbers are dropping. They're setting up a Maori Health Authority, healthcare for and run by Maori, in the next year or two (the right wing are going mad about this obviously) - and the accountability committee they've announced alongside this has got some serious weight in Te Ao Maori. You wouldn't characterise Tarania Turia or Hone Harawira as Govt stooges - Turia quit Labour and started The Maori Party over the foreshore and seabed act, and Uncle Hone has been running the vaccine campaign up north and sorting out the checkpoints to keep his people safe.



The implementation plan shows they're going to boost funding for community stop smoking, established organisations and drive that towards 2025 as well. It's not just a big stick they're hitting smokers with.

"Uncle Hone" doesn't sound patronising at all and the campaign's they are involved in re. Seabeds/Vaccines etc have nothing to do with this issue.

What accountability does "community stop smoking" have?

Just because they are giving out NRT and wellness sessions doesn't mean they aren't hitting smokers with a big Patu.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Good to know you're being positive about it.

Our borders are preeeeeetty tight, the advantage of being fucking miles from anywhere.

Anyone who can currently smoke will be able to do so until they die, although they'll have to switch to ultra lites if they want baccy or vaping if they want nicotine.

The idea that this policy will increase the health related costs of smoking is, tbh, weird. Fewer people smoking = reduced costs.

Yes, as long as you do have fewer people smoking, just not fewer people paying tobacco tax.

 

[Balbi]

Ok, Mr Hawawira. He's a staunch advocate for his people, and the seabed/vaccines stuff absolutely have something to do with that issue and this one. If you cannot relate the three issues as intrinsically ones of Maori wellbeing, then ok I guess. They are though.

Community organisations are often ones run by/for Maori, running out of iwi and hapu organisations. Accountability for and by communities, rather than state intervention by the MOH.

It's all in the plan, let's see how it goes.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I can't see it going well as prohibition never goes well but it's an interesting attempt

It is.

Smoked for decades, then stopped.


For years we bought our tobacco in Belgium, much cheaper. The differential now is astonishing.

 

[alfajobrob]

Also the veneration of Maori culture in modern day New Zealand makes me laugh a little bit.

The idea that the Haka should be respected and not even opposed in modern day rugby is an absolute joke as it was literally a war dance.

Have people already forgotten the native Islanders the invading Maori suppressed and butchered including the Moriori.

It wasn't exactly the peaceful, happy clappy land before the European settlers arrived that like a lot of people make out these days.

Go back a couple of hundred years and see how you get on then with the locals?

 

[Petcha]

Also the veneration of Maori culture in modern day New Zealand makes me laugh a little bit.

The idea that the Haka should be respected and not even opposed in modern day rugby is an absolute joke as it was literally a war dance.

Have people already forgotten the native Islanders the invading Maori suppressed and butchered including the Moriori.

It wasn't exactly a peaceful, happy clappy land before the European settlers arrived.

The haka is not just a war dance. It's performed at weddings, funerals etc, there's all sorts of different versions. It's a mark of respect.

Posh English fans singing Swing Low Sweet Chariot over it is beyond parody (a slave song the workers used to sing while being whipped in the deep south)

 

[alfajobrob]

The haka is not just a war dance. It's performed at weddings, funerals etc, there's all sorts of different versions. It's a mark of respect.

Posh English fans singing Swing Low Sweet Chariot over it is beyond parody (a slave song the workers used to sing while being whipped in the deep south)

So the Haka at Rugby isn't an agressive challenge?

 

[Balbi]

Yeah, laughing at the mana motuhake and tino rangatiratanga established in Te Tiriti O Waitangi, the literal founding document of the country absolutely isn't patronising bullshit at all, eh?

Neither is completely misrepresenting what haka is, what they are, and when they are delivered and the reasons for that. It's not just a display, there's a reason they don't let Aaron Smith lead it any more, you have to have the mana to be able to do that.

And oh aye here comes the Moriori myth, which has survived as a way for Europeans to justify pushing Maori off their land, wondered when you'd get there pal.

It's rare you manage to get the trifecta of pakeha bullshit like that, but you son have got the hat trick.

 

[Petcha]

So the Haka at Rugby isn't an agressive challenge?

It's a challenge yes. And being challenged back is welcomed - when NZ play Tonga for instance it's spine tingling as they challenge each other with their respective hakas.

I remember back in the day Brian Moore (I think) walking right up to them to challenge it - that's not disrespectful. And wasn't taken as such.

 

[Petcha]

From the rugby earlier this year after Maradona died... I don't think the Argentinians were offended by the haka. It must be amazing to stand in front of it if anything.

 

[Balbi]

Any time a team gives a little bit back to the haka, be it formation, movement etc - it goes down well here. World Rugby don't like it, but it's electric.

When England gave some back in 2019 before beating them, it worked well. The haka is a challenge laid down, as said here.

 

[alfajobrob]

Yeah, laughing at the absolutely isn't patronising bullshit at all, eh?

Neither is completely misrepresenting what haka is, what they are, and when they are delivered and the reasons for that. It's not just a display, there's a reason they don't let Aaron Smith lead it any more, you have to have the mana to be able to do that.

And oh aye here comes the Moriori myth, which has survived as a way for Europeans to justify pushing Maori off their land, wondered when you'd get there pal.

It's rare you manage to get the trifecta of pakeha bullshit like that, but you son have got the hat trick.

Are you pakeha?

You come out with all this mana motuhake and tino rangatiratanga established in Te Tiriti O Waitangi, the literal founding document of the country but are probably whiter than me.

What is the Haka supposed to represent when on on a field why has WR said you are not allowed to challenge?

What happened to the other islanders they butchered. One article doesn't cut it?

 

[Petcha]

Any time a team gives a little bit back to the haka, be it formation, movement etc - it goes down well here. World Rugby don't like it, but it's electric.

When England gave some back in 2019 before beating them, it worked well. The haka is a challenge laid down, as said here.

It's one of the great spectacles in world sport, any sport

 

[Balbi]

Are you pakeha?

You come out with all this mana motuhake and tino rangatiratanga established in Te Tiriti O Waitangi, the literal founding document of the country but are probably whiter than me.

What is the Haka supposed to represent when on on a field why has WR said you are not allowed to challenge?

What happened to the other islanders they butchered. One article doesn't cut it?

I'm tauiwi, tangata tiriti. I live here.

Here's you:

Obsessed with how white people are and laughing at indigenous culture preserving itself in the face of brutal colonisation is it? lol, mate

Blaming the haka for World Rugby's rules about not crossing the half way line? lol, mate

Pursuing the myth that there were pre-Maori folks in Aotearoa, lining you up with every racist going? lol, mate

Literally not my job to disabuse you of the notion that Maori culture is somehow lesser than whatever you consider superior, e hoa. Haere atu.

 

[Petcha]

I didn't know World Rugby had banned other sides from crossing the line to challenge it - that's counter productive IMO.

 

[alfajobrob]

I'm tauiwi, tangata tiriti. I live here.

Here's you:

Obsessed with how white people are and laughing at indigenous culture preserving itself in the face of brutal colonisation is it? lol, mate

Blaming the haka for World Rugby's rules about not crossing the half way line? lol, mate

Pursuing the myth that there were pre-Maori folks in Aotearoa, lining you up with every racist going? lol, mate

Literally not my job to disabuse you of the notion that Maori culture is somehow lesser than whatever you consider superior, e hoa. Haere atu.

Lol mate.

Ok you have lived in NZ for a few years and know a few words.

Refusing to accept a warlike culture existed before you rocked up with your latter day values.

I could live in Scotland for a few years. It doesn't make me Braveheart. That's cultural appropriation at its worst.

Och ahh nan noo.