Another Lib Dem anti-Semite

[frogwoman]

Moreover, how likely is it that those same Zionist or/and Jewish denouncers of Ward would defend other Jews who do actually support the Palestinians and who find it immoral what Israel and Zionist Jews are doing in the name of all Jews? The reserved label for them is usually severe and similarly-generalised: "self-hating Jews".

Zionist or/and Jewish denouncers of Ward. Yeah I fucking knew it.

Why does every non-zionist jewish opponent of israel have to be a self-hating jew? What about those anti-zionists who aren't self-hating jews and accept that opposing a state's policies doesn't mean that you have to have to ignore anti-semitism and line up behind austerity-supporting racist filth?

 

[Garek]

Interesting how you can't be a Jewish denouncer of Ward and against the actions of Israel.

 

[frogwoman]

Only a zionist would accuse somebody of anti-semitism.

 

[frogwoman]

Interesting how you can't be a Jewish denouncer of Ward and against the actions of Israel.

Yeah but don't you know, to be a proper Jewish opponent of Israel you can't just get called a self-hating jew by zionists, you have to actually hate yourself and all other jews.

 

[frogwoman]

There are too many who do politics in theory - it is not an interesting debate but a battle between those with power and those without

Look at this cunt. Too fucking right it's a battle.

 

[Garek]

In all this discussion, there's a rather basic set of sequential things to restate:

• The Holocaust was an historical abomination, an unquestionable genocide, which sought to eradicate an entire race of people, the Jews.

• It was part of a systematic purge on any community, Jews, Gypsies, Communists, deemed inferior or/and a threat to Nazi ideology and power.

• Anyone who seeks to deny or misconstrue these basic facts is either peddling lies, misinformed or uninterested in the truth.

• The Holocaust formed a central ideological, political and militarist agenda in the Zionist formulation and creation of a Jewish state.

• The Nakba, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and ongoing Occupation have been the direct consequence of that Zionist process.

• Anyone who seeks to deny or misconstrue these basic facts is either peddling lies, misinformed or uninterested in the truth.

• We cannot reasonably learn or understand anything about Palestinian suffering without referencing the Holocaust and the ways in which Zionism has used it to legitimise the Occupation.

I think point two is interesting. It seems to imply that there was nothing unique about the persecution of Jewish people during the holocaust, they were "just another community". The uniqueness only came later as par of Zionist ideology to justify its violence against the Palestinian people.

In other words Jewish suffering was nothing special. The only people who believe it was are Zionists and that is only for their own evil political ends.

 

[frogwoman]

How David Ward voted on key issues:

• Voted moderately for greater autonomy for schools. votes
• Voted against a more proportional system for electing MPs. votes
• Voted very strongly for university tuition fees. votes
• Voted for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year. votes
• Voted for Labour's anti-terrorism laws. votes
• Voted for automatic enrolment in occupational pensions. votes
• Voted very strongly for encouraging occupational pensions. votes
• Voted for replacing Trident. votes
• Voted strongly for more EU integration. votes
• Voted for a smoking ban. votes
• Voted strongly for increasing the rate of VAT.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think point two is interesting. It seems to imply that there was nothing unique about the persecution of Jewish people during the holocaust, they were "just another community". The uniqueness only came later as par of Zionist ideology to justify its violence against the Palestinian people.

In other words Jewish suffering was nothing special. The only people who believe it was are Zionists and that is only for their own evil political ends.

except we know that to be bollocks of the first water because slavs and gypsies were decimated rather than treated as complete 'bacilli' and singled out for complete extermination- the special focus on the jews was justified by the protocols and surrounding shit- the entire death camp program was designed with the jews in mind.

 

[Garek]

except we know that to be bollocks of the first water because slavs and gypsies were decimated rather than treated as complete 'bacilli' and singled out for complete extermination- the special focus on the jews was justified by the protocols and surrounding shit- the entire death camp program was designed with the jews in mind.

Exactly. I find comments like the one I singled out a form of 'soft'* Holocaust denial.

*if that makes sense.

 

[frogwoman]

Not sure I'd go along with that (the holocaust denial thing) but the tone of the whole article is really fucking unpleasant.

 

[Garek]

Not sure I'd go along with that (the holocaust denial thing) but the tone of the whole article is really fucking unpleasant.

I am not saying it is Holocaust denial in the "6 million myth" sense. Just that I don't see it as being that far from it. The denial of uniqueness and the emphasis of its creation as a Zionist political tool is awfully similar.

 

[DotCommunist]

Exactly. I find comments like the one I singled out a form of 'soft'* Holocaust denial.

*if that makes sense.

I think I do- you mean a diminution of the special impact it had on jews, almost a 'just questioning the numbers' type thing?

 

[frogwoman]

Well the holocaust has been used to justify Israel's atrocities and zionism. However saying that the myth of the holocaust was "created" almost by Zionists, is completely different to what actually happened. In the early years of zionism holocaust survivors who moved to israel were given a terrible time because they had according to other jewish settlers been too weak and not had the guts to fight back. The holocaust was barely discussed in Israel for more than a few years after Israel was founded.

 

[Garek]

I think I do- you mean a diminution of the special impact it had on jews, almost a 'just questioning the numbers' type thing?

Yeah. Basically point 2 and 4 combined I feel really quite nasty.

• It was part of a systematic purge on any community, Jews, Gypsies, Communists, deemed inferior or/and a threat to Nazi ideology and power.

• The Holocaust formed a central ideological, political and militarist agenda in the Zionist formulation and creation of a Jewish state.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah. Basically point 2 and 4 combined I feel really quite nasty.

• It was part of a systematic purge on any community, Jews, Gypsies, Communists, deemed inferior or/and a threat to Nazi ideology and power.

• The Holocaust formed a central ideological, political and militarist agenda in the Zionist formulation and creation of a Jewish state.

Point 1 is true except I would say that Nazi anti-semitism (and anti-communism) was absolutely central to their ideology - at least in the higher up echelons of the party - it wasn't "just" the Nazis trying to get rid of their opponents. Hitler saw the struggle against the Jews and Bolshevism as being one and the same. I would also say that the exterminations of gypsies, poles, the mentally unfit, etc, weren't just the result of a dictator wanting to get rid of a threat to the state (how could the mentally handicapped present any kind of threat to the state?) it was key to how the Nazis saw the development of the society after the war and the creation of a new racially pure German race united under one leader etc.

Point 2 is complete bullshit. most of the groundwork for the state of Israel was created prior to world war II and the nakba occurred when details of the camps were still coming out.

 

[frogwoman]

Whether it's formed an important ideological justification for the activities of zionist organisations and an important reason for continued support of israeli policies among some sections of the population etc since is another question. To some extent yes it has.

 

[frogwoman]

The Balfour declaration for example occurred at a time when nobody involved could have possibly imagined that there would be an industrial project to murder all the Jews in Europe.

 

[Garek]

Point 1 is true except I would say that Nazi anti-semitism (and anti-communism) was absolutely central to their ideology

To me that's the key. The centrality of it. That and its place within the context of hundreds of years worth of European anti-Semitism.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep, it wasn't a simple consolidation of power and killing off "enemies of the state" (as bad as that would have been).

 

[frogwoman]

What they're really doing is shrouding the central issue by focusing on a careless discrepancy, thus serving to keep other journalists in a state of cautious apprehension about discussing the Holocaust in relation to the Occupation.

Uncomfortable truths.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Look at this cunt. Too fucking right it's a battle.

Obvious to me that, as is par for the course with Lib Dems, he's a nonce as well as an antisemite. I mean, just look at him!

 

[SpineyNorman]

How David Ward voted on key issues:

• Voted moderately for greater autonomy for schools. votes
• Voted against a more proportional system for electing MPs. votes
• Voted very strongly for university tuition fees. votes
• Voted for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year. votes
• Voted for Labour's anti-terrorism laws. votes
• Voted for automatic enrolment in occupational pensions. votes
• Voted very strongly for encouraging occupational pensions. votes
• Voted for replacing Trident. votes
• Voted strongly for more EU integration. votes
• Voted for a smoking ban. votes
• Voted strongly for increasing the rate of VAT.

Smoking ban? Line him up against the wall, I'll fetch my grandfather's service revolver!

 

[frogwoman]

Obvious to me that, as is par for the course with Lib Dems, he's a nonce as well as an antisemite. I mean, just look at him!

RIP Tipsy and Rinka. Never forgive, never forget.

 

[mojo pixy]

I spent far too long reading this thread last night with horrified fascination. It flags something very very worrying I've been noticing in the last few years, as more and more apparently educated, intelligent people I know have been gradually talking more and more about what they call "zionism" and the "international banking elite" (replace with your own synonyms as you will) but when I scratch the surface of their argument it becomes obvious what they're really talking about: Jews. Such people invariably claim to be anti-fascist / lefty / anarchist / other right-on political position (some of them I believe, too, having known them a while) and respond very badly when I point out that they probably ought to be careful of the company they're keeping in this discussion. And finally, not a few of them have even started treading the path towards denying the holocaust - it starts with "I'm just questioning the numbers", moving on to "no mass burial pits or gas chambers have ever been found" and finally ends up at "the holocaust was just a zionist plot to get a country" .. of course the names Rockefeller, Rothschild and Freud inevitably come up, I accuse them of (albeit perhaps unwitting) antisemitism, they tell me I need to wake up and start looking for The Truth (invariably capitalized) like they did. I point that virtually all the evidence they use comes from ultra-conservative or neo-nazi sources (eg. the Institute for Historical Review) and they say something asinine like "The Truth is The Truth, I don't care where it comes from, just that it's The Truth" and there's nothing I can do to persuade them of the mistake they're making... It scares me and worries me, and makes me want to return to the old methods we used when I was young - nut the fuckers.

That was a long paragraph, but it's really all about saying, clearly U75 isn't immune to such people and I'm very very happy to discover that most folks here are ready to destroy such warped reasoning. This guy Falcon was very careful, more than most, but I was very happy to see you guys saw through the bullshit immediately. I know you didn't do it for me, but I want to say thankyou anyway

I was surprised, though, that in 21 pages nobody had posted this, it's my favourite way to wind them up online (other than showing them Stormfront threads containing the same links to "evidence" they post themselves) ...as well as being light relief among the odiousness and negativity of having to talk about it at all.



I won't be taking part in too many political discussions because the level is way above what I can maintain, but I wanted to jump in quickly here because this is a particularly acute concern of mine just now. Too many people are using legitimate criticism of zionism or international finance to covertly advance another agenda altogether. I know it's not new, but a lot of the people doing it in 2013 seem to be people I might otherwise describe as progressive / liberal / socialist / communist / anarchist.

It's frightening.

 

[frogwoman]

I spent far too long reading this thread last night with horrified fascination. It flags something very very worrying I've been noticing in the last few years, as more and more apparently educated, intelligent people I know have been gradually talking more and more about what they call "zionism" and the "international banking elite" (replace with your own synonyms as you will) but when I scratch the surface of their argument it becomes obvious what they're really talking about: Jews. Such people invariably claim to be anti-fascist / lefty / anarchist / other right-on political position (some of them I believe, too, having known them a while) and respond very badly when I point out that they probably ought to be careful of the company they're keeping in this discussion. And finally, not a few of them have even started treading the path towards denying the holocaust - it starts with "I'm just questioning the numbers", moving on to "no mass burial pits or gas chambers have ever been found" and finally ends up at "the holocaust was just a zionist plot to get a country" .. of course the names Rockefeller, Rothschild and Freud inevitably come up, I accuse them of (albeit perhaps unwitting) antisemitism, they tell me I need to wake up and start looking for The Truth (invariably capitalized) like they did. I point that virtually all the evidence they use comes from ultra-conservative or neo-nazi sources (eg. the Institute for Historical Review) and they say something asinine like "The Truth is The Truth, I don't care where it comes from, just that it's The Truth" and there's nothing I can do to persuade them of the mistake they're making... It scares me and worries me, and makes me want to return to the old methods we used when I was young - nut the fuckers.

That was a long paragraph, but it's really all about saying, clearly U75 isn't immune to such people and I'm very very happy to discover that most folks here are ready to destroy such warped reasoning. This guy Falcon was very careful, more than most, but I was very happy to see you guys saw through the bullshit immediately. I know you didn't do it for me, but I want to say thankyou anyway

I was surprised, though, that in 21 pages nobody had posted this, it's my favourite way to wind them up online (other than showing them Stormfront threads containing the same links to "evidence" they post themselves) ...as well as being light relief among the odiousness and negativity of having to talk about it at all.



I won't be taking part in too many political discussions because the level is way above what I can maintain, but I wanted to jump in quickly here because this is a particularly acute concern of mine just now. Too many people are using legitimate criticism of zionism or international finance to covertly advance another agenda altogether. I know it's not new, but a lot of the people doing it in 2013 seem to be people I might otherwise describe as progressive / liberal / socialist / communist / anarchist.

It's frightening.

Great post - welcome to the boards. I've had similar experiences to you in PSC and since from a few people who really should know better.What I find concerning is the whole idea that nobody's an anti-semite any more and that it wasn't something we need to be worried about, that it doesn't exist any more. In reality I would say that while it is nowhere the social force that it was at the beginning of the last century and before the war, and probably never will be again, it still exists and has been given something of a "progressive" revival.

 

[co-op]

Great post - welcome to the boards. I've had similar experiences to you in PSC and since from a few people who really should know better..

Me too in ISM. Depressing, especially because it should be such an obvious mistake in any kind of Palestinian solidarity movement.

There was an ISM guy posting on here from in Palestine and he made some gag about Red Sea pedestrians har har and I must admit I didn't think 'morally wrong', I just thought how dumb are you to say that? - it undermines your whole credibility. Either because you are an anti-semite*, or because you're just not politically/culturally smart enough to deal with this issue.


*maybe not even consciously

 

[frogwoman]

Me too in ISM. Depressing, especially because it should be such an obvious mistake in any kind of Palestinian solidarity movement.

There was an ISM guy posting on here from in Palestine and he made some gag about Red Sea pedestrians har har and I must admit I didn't think 'morally wrong', I just thought how dumb are you to say that? - it undermines your whole credibility. Either because you are an anti-semite*, or because you're just not politically/culturally smart enough to deal with this issue.


*maybe not even consciously

I think it's not helped by illuminati type shit either which is far more mainstream and like widely seen by people than most posters on here realise. The other day I met somebody on the train going back who started ranting at me about what david icke had said and i've had a mate talk to me about how she was reading stuff about the illuminati.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's not helped by illuminati type shit either which is far more mainstream and like widely seen by people than most posters on here realise. The other day I met somebody on the train going back who started ranting at me about what david icke had said and i've had a mate talk to me about how she was reading stuff about the illuminati.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[elbows]

I won't be taking part in too many political discussions because the level is way above what I can maintain, but I wanted to jump in quickly here because this is a particularly acute concern of mine just now. Too many people are using legitimate criticism of zionism or international finance to covertly advance another agenda altogether. I know it's not new, but a lot of the people doing it in 2013 seem to be people I might otherwise describe as progressive / liberal / socialist / communist / anarchist.

It's frightening.

One of the reasons you might find people like that slipping that route is that there appears to be little appetite to properly get to the bottom of the financial crisis, other systemic flaws, global shifts in power, the economic system in general. Well-placed mistrust in these systems, corporations etc is instead easily converted into some sloppy scapegoating. This is further enhanced by the difficulty in really believing that the alternatives can be brought about, or at least how to get to them given the realities which have been made real by the prevailing economic and political direction of recent decades. There is a strange kind of stalemate going on, everyone is locked onto the rails and when the pressure finally leads to a derailment, there is a high chance that the train may crash into some innocent scenery.

No wonder then that the era of youtube has combined with the above predicament to lull people who should know better into getting behind crude and dangerous narratives about the state of things, power and control.