andre shoukri, jim 'loyalist stakeknife' spence and the uda power struggle...

[DaveCinzano]

i was just idling surfing when i came across this, haven't noticed any mention of it elsewhere:

TENSION is mounting between rival UDA units in Belfast, after two loyalist godfathers were involved in a bloody fist-fight.

Senior security sources told Sunday Life that dissension is growing within UDA ranks, after north Belfast commander Andre Shoukri clashed with suspected MI5 agent, Jim Spence.

...Spence, who has denied being the loyalist equivalent of IRA superspy 'Stakeknife', has been keeping a low profile about the incident.

from sunday life, 31 october

so, anybody have anything on this 'loyalist stakeknife' spence? is this a case of bad-jacketing him?

where does our andre fit into the whole shabby secret state/loyalist jigsaw?

who is in control of the uda now?

 

[Idris2002]

I reckon it's splintering into various local factions.

The Highfield UDA, I've heard from a reliable person, is actually trying to do some proper community development work, unlike the usual loyalist criminality (and the person who told me this leans well to the opposite side of the NI divide, btw).

 

[oi2002]

As usual the younger more beligerent men are elbowing old fellas aside. It would only be news if it was happening in the RA, if Gerry can't persuade Big Ian to rescue him that may be what happens.

 

[Idris2002]

I'd say the younger chucks are too busy eyeing up council seats, or thinking about a Dail career for that to happen.

And there are still enough belligerent old men to police that movement's internal operations, don't forget.

 

[Belushi]

So is Jim Spence related to Gusty Spence?

 

[DaveCinzano]

sunday life story, 6/3/05

seems the 'loyalist stakeknife' sobriquet is sticking - somebody doesn't like jim, judging by this story, which is packed full of claims made by two unnamed (well, obviously!) former fru/jsg soldier-spooks.

Speaking to Sunday Life, he [soldier-spook 2] claimed Spence (44) is an "untouchable", who has been in the pay of British Intelligence for 20 years - a claim furiously denied by the top loyalist.

The ex-handler, who first worked for FRU, and later the re-named Joint Services Group, told how Spence:
• Was used by British Intelligence to plan attacks on republicans.
• Received documents on Pat Finucane from FRU agent Brian Nelson, and passed them to Shankill UDA man Mo Courtney, before the murder of the Catholic solicitor.
• Was paid to stir up divisions inside the UDA.
• Has been allowed to run criminal rackets with impunity.

no surprises there, then...

these two bits are quite interesting though:

However, the source claimed Spence's primary role as a paid agent was to spread dissent within the UDA's Belfast command.
"He was the perfect conduit to spread misinformation right to the very heart of the UDA.
"Spence was used to foment dissent and division within the UDA . . . to keep its leaders at each others throats - and that's what he did, " said the source.
"He was good at driving a wedge between them."

The source claimed that during the recent UDA feud, Spence had been used by his handlers to encourage Johnny Adair to confront the rest of the UDA leadership.
"Spence and John White encouraged Adair to take them on," said the source.
"They (the security services) wanted Adair out of the picture, and used Spence to achieve that aim. After Adair was jailed, he continued to foment division by opposing the UDA leadership.
"After John 'Grug' Gregg was killed in February 2003, Spence aligned himself with the UDA leadership to oppose Adair. Again, this would have been on the direction of his handlers."

just what is this fru chap saying about adair? that he was a useful patsy? that once he served his purpose as a bogeyman, he was got rid of?

The source told Sunday Life that British spy masters had used Spence to organise UDA attacks on at least five republicans.
He linked Spence to the 1989 murder of solicitor Pat Finucane, that also involved security service agents Brian Nelson, William Stobie and Ken Barrett.

i'd be interested to know which five republicans - and whether they were actually republicans - were supposedly targeted... and whether that five actually included finucane.

there's also some titbits relating to ken barrett (the fellow who copped for the finucane killing).

curiouser and curiouser.

 

[DaveCinzano]

also just spotted this story from the sunday life, 27/2/05, about johnny adair returning to have his picture taken outside spence's house in a publicity stunt:

Said Adair: "I have said all along that I would visit the homes of the top UDA men to show them that I wasn't afraid to confront them.

"I decided to start at the top with my first visit, and that's why I went to Spence's home.

"...Spence has a lot of questions to answer about his role as a double-agent, but I know he won't meet me. He even refused to answer the letters I sent him from prison.

...Adair also vowed that he would be making more visits to UDA leaders over the coming months.

Added Adair: "I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I will be making visits to the cowards who tried to kill my family, and placed me under a death-threat.

"The UDA doesn't know what I'm going to do next.

"Talk is cheap - but actions speak louder than words."

it really does read like a bad novel

 

[Idris2002]

Isn't life in general like a bad novel?

Can anyone out there recommend a good book on collusion, btw?

 

[rednblack]

The Highfield UDA, I've heard from a reliable person, is actually trying to do some proper community development work, unlike the usual loyalist criminality (and the person who told me this leans well to the opposite side of the NI divide, btw).

hasnt the highfield DA always been more community and class inclined? i'm sure i remember reading that somewhere from when the UDA first started comming together?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

also just spotted this story from the sunday life, 27/2/05, about johnny adair returning to have his picture taken outside spence's house in a publicity stunt:



it really does read like a bad novel

Whilst Adair was inside one of his tour party who settled in Bolton left a fake bomb on her door step so that she could be rehoused from the pivate sector into council housing.She's up at the Crown Court this week.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Whilst Adair was inside one of his tour party who settled in Bolton left a fake bomb on her door step so that she could be rehoused from the pivate sector into council housing.She's up at the Crown Court this week.

classy!

it's like 'brookie' but with added sectarian hatred and state-sanctioned terror

 

[fanta]

Isn't life in general like a bad novel?

Can anyone out there recommend a good book on collusion, btw?

I've heard this isn't bad:

...by Bill Rolston.

Haven't read it myself so can't comment.

ISBN 1-900960-09-5

 

[DaveCinzano]

seems there was an anti-adair protest by shankhill residents on tuesday night - belfast telegraph

looks like poor johnny isn't as welcome 'back home' as he thought

 

[Idris2002]

I've heard Rolston speak a couple of times. He's OK, for a raving chuck.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Isn't life in general like a bad novel?

Thought for the day

 

[DaveCinzano]

Thought for the day

it's rabbi lionel orange!

 

[DaveCinzano]

okay - so shoukri and spence are on their way out, and mcdonald is in the ascendant?

news letter

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Pardon me for smiling?

 

[behemoth]

Couple of questions.

Are they on ceasefire?

Is Shoukri an old Scottish name?

 

[timetofillapit]

even adair misse's is scum of the lowest order.
though I pity the local housing officer who has to instigate asbo proceedings against her and her hidious brood
usually its the intelligent types who leave the emerald toilet

 

[DaveCinzano]

ok, so at the weekend the sunday life printed an interview with shoukri and macdonald, in which they palled up, scotched rumours about a split, and claimed to be excising criminality from the uda... go figure!

where are our resident loyalism analysts?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

also just spotted this story from the sunday life, 27/2/05, about johnny adair returning to have his picture taken outside spence's house in a publicity stunt:



it really does read like a bad novel

It realy does sound like a dead Johnny Adair. Please.

 

[oi2002]

It's just buisness of course. I'd put my money on Shoukri.

And yer man Stone was scooped up . Let's just hope it's the start of put the fucking nutters back in prison week.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

It's just buisness of course. I'd put my money on Shoukri.

And yer man Stone was scooped up . Let's just hope it's the start of put the fucking nutters back in prison week.

Yeh, hopefully Paisley and his apologists in the British government will be held responsible for their collusion in Murder

 

[oi2002]

They let Stone go unfortunately.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

They let Stone go unfortunately.

Now there's a surprise.

 

[DaveCinzano]

...and in other internecine loyalist feud news...

belfast telegraph is reporting a uvf-lvf flare-up after the former were blamed for the killing of a man connected with the latter in north belfast.

 

[sihhi]

belfast telegraph is reporting a uvf-lvf flare-up after the former were blamed for the killing of a man connected with the latter in north belfast.

Can someone explain the precise difference nowadays between lowlevel UDA members and UVF members?

 

[DaveCinzano]

they support different football teams?

 

[rednblack]

Can someone explain the precise difference nowadays between lowlevel UDA members and UVF members?

do you mean uda and uff, or uda and uvf?