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And next, Syria?

I didn't mention this and have made no comments on this incident

so what now increasingly looks to be a previous attempt by rebel forces to falsify a massive crime against humanity, on the very eve of the weapons inspectors arrival,...surprise surprise... in order to justify armed western intervention has no bearing on yet another one emanating from the rebel side , on the very eve of the Geneva talks....surprise, surprise

you can piss off asking me for anymore comments , mush
 
Damning stuff. More nails in Assad's coffin.

thats 3 full years now youve been predicting his imminent demise. You remind me of this guy

this time for sure....

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If you keep this up for another 30 years youll be right one day
 
theyre a party to the armed conflict, just spit it out man . And the decsion to come out with this on the very eve of the Geneva talks points to purely political purposes . Anyone taking those claims at face value is either heavily biased or a complete idiot . Or both .
I never denied it!
I asked for your comments on the events this information seems to indicate took place, all you have done is attack the possible source of the information and now the timing of its release. So can you give me an opinion about the possibility that torture (to the point of death) and executions on a large, almost industrial scale have been carried out by the security forces of the Assad government or are you trying to say that these have simply not taken place and that this is some kind of Qatari plot?
 
so what now increasingly looks to be a previous attempt by rebel forces to falsify a massive crime against humanity, on the very eve of the weapons inspectors arrival,...surprise surprise... in order to justify armed western intervention has no bearing on yet another one emanating from the rebel side , on the very eve of the Geneva talks....surprise, surprise

you can piss off asking me for anymore comments , mush
1. Western intervention didn't happen.
2. You've avoided giving relevant comment so far anyway.
 
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2. You've avoided giving relevant comment so far anyway.

What he's posted is very relevant. Assad may preside over a regime that is nasty and barbarous (he does) but if you are going to wallow in that and jump up and down when/if he falls you'll be in the company of every liberal imperialist in the world which might want to give you pause for thought. Qatar presides over an economy in which migrant workers are effectively slaves - once they've arrived, they are not allowed to leave Qatar without the permission of their employers, it's a slavers state. Why are you so keen to line up with them and their 'evidence'? Are they creating some kind of new model economy you want to see spread globally?

Especially when - as CR has pointed out - there is now a deafening silence about the alleged gas attack that was supposed to justify a new western-led invasion (which seemed to be Just Great with a few of the naivest anarchists on here). A little scepticism might be in order here.

More to the point if you're going with the horror of this - if Qatar and Co get what they want, they'll be ushering in another bout of blood-letting and torture in Syria that's every bit as nasty as anything Assad has done. Or will you be on to by-the-numbers denunciation of the latest Enemy-of-the-West by then?
 
What he's posted is very relevant. Assad may preside over a regime that is nasty and barbarous (he does) but if you are going to wallow in that and jump up and down when/if he falls you'll be in the company of every liberal imperialist in the world which might want to give you pause for thought.
I wanted his opinion as to the actual report of systematic torture being possibly carried out by the Syrian regime which he so staunchly supports, his failure to do that and instead to concentrate solely on the funders of the report (who of course have their own agenda but if the report is correct, so what?) speaks volumes.
Qatar presides over an economy in which migrant workers are effectively slaves - once they've arrived, they are not allowed to leave Qatar without the permission of their employers, it's a slavers state. Why are you so keen to line up with them and their 'evidence'? Are they creating some kind of new model economy you want to see spread globally?
We aren't discussing Qatar here though and just because I think systematic torture and murder by a regime isn't necessarily a good thing doesn't mean I have any love for any of the other parties involved (or do you think crimes of this scale should be ignored if you dont like the people releasing the information)?
Especially when - as CR has pointed out - there is now a deafening silence about the alleged gas attack that was supposed to justify a new western-led invasion (which seemed to be Just Great with a few of the naivest anarchists on here). A little scepticism might be in order here.
I haven't noticed a silence on this at all from here and tbh nothing has changed from the release of the initial report apart from the interpretations of it. That's all I have to say on this.
More to the point if you're going with the horror of this - if Qatar and Co get what they want, they'll be ushering in another bout of blood-letting and torture in Syria that's every bit as nasty as anything Assad has done. Or will you be on to by-the-numbers denunciation of the latest Enemy-of-the-West by then?
So again you are saying (if it's true) we should ignore it because you dont like what you presume will be the alternative?
 
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I wanted his opinion as to the actual report of systematic torture being possibly carried out by the Syrian regime which he so staunchly supports, his failure to do that and instead to concentrate solely on the funders of the report (who of course have their own agenda but if the report is correct, so what?) speaks volumes.

We aren't discussing Qatar here though and just because I think systematic torture and murder by a regime isn't necessarily a good thing doesn't mean I have any love for any of the other parties involved (or do you think crimes of this scale should be ignored if you dont like the people releasing the information)?

I haven't noticed a silence on this at all from here and tbh nothing has changed from the release of the initial report apart from the interpretations of it. That's all I have to say on this.

So again you are saying (if it's true) we should ignore it because you dont like what you presume will be the alternative?

You said CR had "avoided relevant comment" - I don't think he has. The source of this story is highly relevant since the story is about a war in which they are taking a very active part.When I spoke about a 'deafening silence' I didn't mean on U75, I meant in the news media, and I can only presume that this is because it has turned out that despite all the trumpeting of Assad's guilt at the time, there isn't much evidence. If there was, we'd be getting wall-to-wall coverage. I'll remain sceptical until we get some clarity on the gas story and ditto with this one. As CR says, the timing is impeccable from the pov of the anti-Assad side.

This question of what we should and shouldn't ignore cuts both ways though doesn't it? That was my point. You hate the Assad regime and want it to fall, so far so good. But the reality of this situation is you aren't choosing between Assad and something better, you're choosing between Assad and something that's easily likely to be something worse - maybe most likely to be worse. A clue to that outcome would be that you end up climbing into bed with Saudi Arabia, Israel, the US, Britain, Qatar and France and you end up supporting their - obviously nasty - agenda, that includes slavery, and yes murder and torture when it suits them.

Are you happy to ignore their crimes just because they happen to be attacking a regime that is defended by your ideological opponents on the left in the UK? That seems even less morally tenable to me than supporting Assad. But then I'm not claiming it's a nice clear cut choice.

"Anti-imperialist" theorists in the west get backed into some strange alliances with autocratic "anti-imperialist" regimes for sure - but anarchists seem to me to have almost nothing to say at all worth listening to in this debate; they are reduced to mewing about not liking anything that's on offer - it's a position that's more reminiscent of mainstream why-can't-we-all-play-nicely? wet liberalism than anything else. But I'm really ready to listen if you can persuade me there's a sensible policy somewhere here.
 
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Neither the time or patience to answer fully but here's a couple of points as I couldn't leave that last post entirely unanswered.

I spoke about a 'deafening silence' I didn't mean on U75, I meant in the news media, and I can only presume that this is because it has turned out that despite all the trumpeting of Assad's guilt at the time, there isn't much evidence. If there was, we'd be getting wall-to-wall coverage. I'll remain sceptical until we get some clarity on the gas story and ditto with this one. As CR says, the timing is impeccable from the pov of the anti-Assad side.
I wasn't talking about U75 either.
question of what we should and shouldn't ignore cuts both ways though doesn't it? That was my point. You hate the Assad regime and want it to fall, so far so good. But the reality of this situation is you aren't choosing between Assad and something better, you're choosing between Assad and something that's easily likely to be something worse - maybe most likely to be worse. A clue to that outcome would be that you end up climbing into bed with Saudi Arabia, Israel, the US, Britain, Qatar and France and you end up supporting their - obviously nasty - agenda, that includes slavery, and yes murder and torture when it suits them.
You assume way too much!
you happy to ignore their crimes just because they happen to be attacking a regime that is defended by your ideological opponents on the left in the UK? That seems even less morally tenable to me than supporting Assad. But then I'm not claiming it's a nice clear cut choice.
Again false assumptions
 
I never denied it!
I asked for your comments on the events this information seems to indicate took place, all you have done is attack the possible source of the information and now the timing of its release. So can you give me an opinion about the possibility that torture (to the point of death) and executions on a large, almost industrial scale have been carried out by the security forces of the Assad government or are you trying to say that these have simply not taken place and that this is some kind of Qatari plot?

Interesting discussion of Qatar's role in Fisk's article in the Independent yesterday http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-one-is-reminded-of-nazi-germany-9075743.html
 
CR right. This report stinks its undoubtably true assad is the bastards bastard and the jihadists are no slouch in lets do terrible things so if your not part of the assad fan club and you end up in their hands its not off to stalag luft damascius :(

Unfortunatly assad is a bastard the jihadists are mad bastards and not even united mad bastards.
 
Well its difficult for me to answer a post based on so many false assumptions.

You have just written "you assume too much" in response to my post below

This question of what we should and shouldn't ignore cuts both ways though doesn't it? That was my point. You hate the Assad regime and want it to fall, so far so good. But the reality of this situation is you aren't choosing between Assad and something better, you're choosing between Assad and something that's easily likely to be something worse - maybe most likely to be worse. A clue to that outcome would be that you end up climbing into bed with Saudi Arabia, Israel, the US, Britain, Qatar and France and you end up supporting their - obviously nasty - agenda, that includes slavery, and yes murder and torture when it suits them.

what am I assuming here that you disagree with?

Why are CRs comments irrelevant when the source of this latest atrocity story is a party to the war? Why do you automatically accept the word of a regime which clearly doesn't give a shit about human rights either? Do you think that the timing of the story and the massive prominence given to it by the western media are mere co-incidence?

I mean you can stroll off and not bother answer of you want but your "answers" are utterly bald at the moment.
 
You have just written "you assume too much" in response to my post below



what am I assuming here that you disagree with?
How about we start with the very basis of that section of your post that you quoted:

You hate the Assad regime and want it to fall,

The rest of that section fall apart because you assume that this is my opinion

are CRs comments irrelevant when the source of this latest atrocity story is a party to the war?
They are irrelevant to my question, I have not stated at any stage that the story is true, however the Qataris have been very careful to make it as believable as possible. Do you assume that the team that they gathered to assess the data are lying or have been bought off etc, in any way?
do you automatically accept the word of a regime which clearly doesn't give a shit about human rights either?
No, unlike CR who seems to swallow everything he hears from both the Syrian and Russian governments. Do you?
think that the timing of the story and the massive prominence given to it by the western media are mere co-incidence?
I agree the timing of the release is most probably designed to weaken the Syrian governments position in the Geneva talks, this doesn't mean that the story is untrue though, does it?

I mean you can stroll off and not bother answer of you want but your "answers" are utterly bald at the moment.

Some of us have work to do even in the evening, I can't always be around to immediately react to all your assertions.
 
How about we start with the very basis of that section of your post that you quoted:



The rest of that section fall apart because you assume that this is my opinion

:facepalm:

I don't know where to start with this rubbish really - I mean if you're an Assad supporter none of your posts at CR make any sense, of you're opposed, why object to what I posted.

They are irrelevant to my question, I have not stated at any stage that the story is true, however the Qataris have been very careful to make it as believable as possible. Do you assume that the team that they gathered to assess the data are lying or have been bought off etc, in any way?

Yes absolutely that's what I believe until there's some very decent proof that this isn't the case - I think you'd have to be sensationally naive to take it at face value. Do you?

Some of us have work to do even in the evening, I can't always be around to immediately react to all your assertions.

My point was, walk away if you can't/don't feel like answering - but just writing gibberish like "you assume too much" or hiding behind some stupid & self-contradictory ambiguity about your attitude to the Assad regime is wasting everyone's time. I'll just chalk you up as a silly partisan anarchist who's wriggling in a corner.
 
:facepalm:

I don't know where to start with this rubbish really - I mean if you're an Assad supporter none of your posts at CR make any sense, of you're opposed, why object to what I posted.
So it's an either/or answer you're looking for? A nice black or white world view you have there!

absolutely that's what I believe until there's some very decent proof that this isn't the case - I think you'd have to be sensationally naive to take it at face value. Do you?
How about you prove that that is the case, its quite hard to prove a negative isn't it?

Otherwise I will accept that the team of 3 top international prosecutors in war crimes trials and 3 leading forensics specialists are pretty damn sure that the evidence indicates there has been systematic torture and murder carried out by the Syrian government regardless of the source of funding for the report and the politically convenient timing of the release. Or do you only pay attention to such people if the findings suit you?
If you want or can be bothered to read it, here's the report
http://www.theguardian.com/world/in...of-persons-under-current-syrian-regime-report

point was, walk away if you can't/don't feel like answering - but just writing gibberish like "you assume too much" or hiding behind some stupid & self-contradictory ambiguity about your attitude to the Assad regime is wasting everyone's time. I'll just chalk you up as a silly partisan anarchist who's wriggling in a corner.
Again false assumptions. Tss tss tss

I walked nowhere I just had better and more pressing things to do than answer someone who clearly has problems when reality contradicts his preconceived opinions.
 
Its a civil war the jihadists and others have been seen cutting the heads of captured assad forces.
What do you think is going to happen if the Assad forces get you?
 
Its a civil war the jihadists and others have been seen cutting the heads of captured assad forces.
What do you think is going to happen if the Assad forces get you?


its not just that. Theyve been kidnapping and massacring entire populations . If they decide your town or village is loyal to the government, if your a government worker, a religious minority,a lebanese pilgrim, an unpious sunni then your a target for all sorts . Theyve taken many thousands of men, women and children captive whove never been heard of again .They grabbed as many civilians as they could in their Latakia offensive, including many children. All have disappeared . And now the intelligence services backing them are realeasing pictures of dead people again, just as they did with the gas attacks that are leading back to their door . They have no shortage of dead and murdered captives of their own to take pictures of .

just a flavour

http://rt.com/news/adra-syria-massacre-witnesses-355/
 
[quote="Fuchs66, post: 12873931, member: 16274So it's an either/or answer you're looking for? A nice black or white world view you have there!

Otherwise I will accept that the team of 3 top international prosecutors in war crimes trials and 3 leading forensics specialists are pretty damn sure that the evidence indicates there has been systematic torture and murder carried out by the Syrian government regardless of the source of funding for the report and the politically convenient timing of the release. Or do you only pay attention to such people if the findings suit you? [/QUOTE]

Youre repeatedly making a massive deal out of the credentials and background of these 3 experts hired by Carter Ruck on behalf of the Qatari intelligence services who are funding the case . Youve done that in a number of your posts in an attempt to convince people as to the the integrity of the Qtari intelligence services conveniently timed accusations . So lets just have a look at them for a minute .

Firstly Im well...extremely.. familiar with the track record of Sir Desmond Lorenz De Silva . Afterall he was the chap commissioned by David Cameron to produce a report into the state sanctioned murder of Irish Human Rights lawyer Pat Finucane in Belfast . Finucane was murdered in front of his family by a group of British military intelligence agents on the orders of their handlers,shortly after hed been pretty much marked for death in a statement made in the British house of commons by a British cabinet minister .

The Finucane family slammed this report by the eminent Lord De Silva as a state sanctioned whitewash and a sham

"It's a report into which we have had no input....The British government has engineered a suppression of the truth behind the murder of my husband. At every turn it is clear that this report has done exactly what was required – to give the benefit of the doubt to the state, its cabinet and ministers, to the army, to the intelligence services and to itself.....This report ...De Silvas..is a sham, this report is a whitewash, this report is a confidence trick dressed up as independent scrutiny and given invisible clothes of reliability.

Pat Finucanes widow Geraldine Finucane on Sir Desmond Lorenz De Silvas highly paid shilling for the British state.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/dec/12/pat-finucane-de-silva-report

read that Fuchs. Its very important to whats going on here. Simply put Lord De Silva has a track record of producing reports for British military intelligence services which flagrantly ignore the glaring truth. which ignore established facts and simply say exactly what the British military intelligence services want his report to say . No matter how obviously at variance with the facts that is . Hes whats known as a shill . And a highly paid one .

The next one, dear oh dear...David Crane . The same David Crane who has spent 30 years of his career working for the CIA and US military intelligence at the highest level ?

Interesting memo here

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95308&page=2

the guy is CIA to his backbone. The CIA work very closely with Qatari intelligence, the sponsors of the report and the providers of the evidence .

And finally Sir Geoffrey Nice . The guy who gained international notoriety as the cheif prosecutor of Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic . And who over the course of a 2 year trial spectacularly failed to prove a single instance of his culpability in crimes against humanity . And whos legal blushes ..and those of Tony Blair, Bill Clinton and NATO..were finally spared by the defendant being posioned in custody and conveniently dying . That Sir Geoffrey Nice .

The finest mouthpieces for western imperialist interests that money can buy . Thats who your eminent experts are . Shilling for Carter Ruck, who are shilling for Qatari intellgence, who are shills for western intelligence agencies . I wouldnt disgrace my backside by wiping it with any report those 3 stuck their names on .
 
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He's wrong on much but obviously right on this. The regime has a long history of torture. That's hardly a matter of dispute even if this report turns out to be flawed.

Hes always wrong . In his previous post he claimed the rebel infighting was evidence the SAA was effectively beaten . :facepalm:
 
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